James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: December 01, 2006 11:08PM
Quote
kath
Strangely 'professional' psychics who say they will prove their claims often vanish or back out, making excuses why not to take the test :D Might damage their income if people knew they had lost I suppose.
Its been my experience they always back out of testing. In regards to Randi, they start the process thinking they can beat the test, but once they see how the test will be set up, and it will be fail-safe, with no way to trick the test, they back out, and make up some excuse, or start attacking the testers.
Setting aside folks who are True Believers of psychic powers for a hobby, I have found people who charge money fit into 2 groups.
1) People who sorta believe in it, but also know from experience that they are wrong most of the time, if not all of the time. But they make themselves believe they are right SOME of the time, as they don't want to stop making $60-$300 an hour! Some of these folks can make $1,000 in a day easy.
2) Scammers. There are hordes of psychic scammers, who are just in it for the cash, and don't care if its true or not. Go to a "psychic fair" and you will see about 99.9% of the sellers there are in this category. They pay their mortgage with it. They can make a ton of money, [b:924d961fd5]especially off people who's loved ones have recently died.[/b:924d961fd5] They can bilk a person who's husband or child has died for hundreds and thousands of dollars, by making up generalized "feel-good" stuff, and exploiting the persons grief. Evil.
I have personally never met a "psychic" who has ever agreed to do proper testing. They SAY they will, but they always back out with some excuse...when they see you are not going to let them run their game the way they want to.
Again, if someone "believes" they have this power, or knows someone who they think has it, get it tested by professionals at a university. Your friends or psychic business associates are not good testers!
;-)
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
kath
()
Date: December 01, 2006 11:13PM
Quote
drivingthecar
Marijuana is an herb. It's natural. You can grow it yourself and smoke it and then tell me that as a natural herb it does absolutely "nothing" for you.
That's a narcotic drug though.
No-one would argue deadly nightshade or other toxins do nothing :D But this is not the type of herb we are talking about, which you can buy legally at health food shops.Quote
PS And saying that all psychics are frauds because big name psychics are is not being objective either. There are plenty of psychics that work on a low profile, some of the better ones don't even give you a price, you just pay what you can, and they are usually much better than the ones seeking fame and fortune.
aah but are they deluding others and/or themselves, and encouraging others to be dependent on them?
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: December 01, 2006 11:30PM
Quote
cultreporter
Anti Cult,
I think that you should refrain from making sweeping generalisations. I posted a lot of information from skeptics sources which criticise Randi. .
I think exercising critical thinking about everything is great, of course including James Randi. That's what James Randi WANTS you to do, he does NOT want you to "believe" what he says. He wants people to think for themselves, but to learn how to think properly, and how to stop fooling themselves.
I am NOT making sweeping generalizations. I am saying PROVE IT. That is all I am saying, and until there's proof, then the claims are meaningless. And if something has failed every test, then it seems likely it does not exist. It might, but not likely.
But its clear that you have made up your mind about Randi, and I am not going to be able to change your mind about James Randi.
I also don't have time to engage one-on-one in a battle on a road to nowhere.
My posts are just to provide some balance about what James Randi does, for people who read a thread like this, so they don't "believe" a bunch of misinformation. They can go and read all the links, and make up their own minds based on the evidence and their own judgement.
Like I said, I know Randi a bit, and I KNOW if I could prove a psychic ability, I could pass Randi's test EASILY.
If I could move a toothpick with MindPower, I would win it.
I would love to win the prize, for the money, and for the fun of it. But I can't.
I would suggest for people who are interested in this type of thing to TEST it properly, which is not easy. There are bogus books out there, who offer up ideas which are not proper tests. If a person thinks they have "powers" then test it properly, and see. The best wy to do it, is to apply for the Randi Challenge, and then start the process of testing in your own city.
Like Randi says, so for, no one has even passed the preliminary tests!
Is this due to a conspiracy, or due to the fact that paranormal powers don't exist?
Try it and find out.
I know of zero objective, peer-reviewed scientific evidence for any paranormal ability. Zero.
If anyone has any, then send it to the editors of the magazine SCIENCE, and then you will win the Nobel prize in a few years. Forget the James Randi prize, prove a paranormal ability, and you will win every scientific prize on earth, starting with the Nobel prize.
By the way, the hundreds of Cult Leaders who claim paranormal powers, are all scammers and liars and crooks, as not one of them has ever PROVEN their claims. Not one, not Sai Baba, Sri Chinmoy, or the hundreds of other crooks out there, exploiting the gullible.
Not one of those people has ever submitted to proper testing by objective scientists who know how to test this type of thing.
Don't you think if they COULD do it, that ONE of them would have tested and proven it, so they could be more famous?
Of course, that is human nature.
But they know they can't prove it, so they just lie about it.
There truly is a sucker born every minute in this world, and that is quite sad. This is why cult leaders and scammers are laughing all the way to the bank, and running amok in this world.
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: December 01, 2006 11:39PM
Quote
rrmoderator
Alternative medicine can be destructive if someone either delays or doesn't seek medical treatment in favor of an unproven alternative.
In this area Stephen Barrett has performed a public service by exposing quacks.
This is true and ethics are an important part of any health care discipline.
One of the issues that makes natural health care providers a target is the lack of regulation and therefore the lack of responsibility that can be attatched to them.
I do not know the situation in America but here anyone can call themselves a massage therapist with no training whatsoever and practice, they simply cannot get insurance, so if someone gets hurt it is really too bad for them because they are very unlikely to get any form of compensation.
Anyone who uses natural healthcare or conventional healthcare for that matter should be encouraged to have an informed understanding of what they are accessing and know to check the training that the person has had and their insurance status. Most disciplines can get insurance here and all the courses that I have seen offerred include modules on ethics designed to look out for the best interests of the patients, so that this sort of thing does not happen.
Again I cannot speak for the situation in Ameirca but we have had significant issues here with unqualified docotrs. A recent case, Dr Patel I think that it was from memory, is responsible for many deaths, dangerous fraudsters are by no means exclusive to natural or alternative therapies.
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: December 01, 2006 11:44PM
drivingthecar:
You have made it clear that you don't like Stephen Barrett.
And you seem to support alternative medicine, which Barrett would oppose.
OK.
But please understand that subjective experience, is not the same as scientifically proven evidence.
Acupuncture is interesting and perhaps how it works will eventually be proven and resolved objectively through scientific studies.
Health claims can be resolved this way, and for the sake of public safety should be.
You have repeatedly cited your anecdotal personal experiences, but this is not the same as objective scientific proof.
Please understand that this is much like the subjective statements made by Landmark graduates about their "experience" as proof that LGATs like Landmark work.
Are you saying that Stephen Barrett has made false statements on his CV?
If so, what specific citations on his CV are false?
You have made it clear that you don't like Stephen Barrett.
And you seem to support alternative medicine, which Barrett would oppose.
OK.
But please understand that subjective experience, is not the same as scientifically proven evidence.
Acupuncture is interesting and perhaps how it works will eventually be proven and resolved objectively through scientific studies.
Health claims can be resolved this way, and for the sake of public safety should be.
You have repeatedly cited your anecdotal personal experiences, but this is not the same as objective scientific proof.
Please understand that this is much like the subjective statements made by Landmark graduates about their "experience" as proof that LGATs like Landmark work.
Are you saying that Stephen Barrett has made false statements on his CV?
If so, what specific citations on his CV are false?
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: December 02, 2006 12:01AM
AntiCult please, I am not challenging you to a one on one debate with me, it would be pointless since you do not respond to what I write anyway. I disagree that it is impossible to change my mind about Randi and I think that you should refrain from judging my intelligence or my allegiances. Quite frankly it makes it appear, alongside your lack of response, vague allegations of conspiracy and friendship with Randi that you have some sort of agenda of your own and your own mind already made up.
How you would change my mind about Randi would be to post one objective link (ie - not from his own website) that his mind is not already made up about all phenomenom or string together a reasonable argument as to how one can have expertise in cults, yetis, UFOs, natural medicine and psychic phenomenom or explain away the very valid points about why the outcomes of the Million Dollar Challenge are not available, why there is no other judge but Randi and why even a representative of CSICOP has stated that it is not scientific. I agree that it looks impressive. I agree that someone should go and take it, but I don't believe under the conditions that it is possible. I am by far from the only person that has sugguested this in the 10 years that the challenge has existed.
I have not claimed that psychic ability exists and nor have I limited the conversation to this element. I do not alledge that Randi has refused to pay out the reward to anyone unfairly. No one can alledge this since there are no results to examine. Randi does expect that we agree with him because he has set himself up to be the [b:a2fe28adf8][i:a2fe28adf8]sole judge [/i:a2fe28adf8][/b:a2fe28adf8]of the million dollar challenge.
[www.alternativescience.com]
How you would change my mind about Randi would be to post one objective link (ie - not from his own website) that his mind is not already made up about all phenomenom or string together a reasonable argument as to how one can have expertise in cults, yetis, UFOs, natural medicine and psychic phenomenom or explain away the very valid points about why the outcomes of the Million Dollar Challenge are not available, why there is no other judge but Randi and why even a representative of CSICOP has stated that it is not scientific. I agree that it looks impressive. I agree that someone should go and take it, but I don't believe under the conditions that it is possible. I am by far from the only person that has sugguested this in the 10 years that the challenge has existed.
I have not claimed that psychic ability exists and nor have I limited the conversation to this element. I do not alledge that Randi has refused to pay out the reward to anyone unfairly. No one can alledge this since there are no results to examine. Randi does expect that we agree with him because he has set himself up to be the [b:a2fe28adf8][i:a2fe28adf8]sole judge [/i:a2fe28adf8][/b:a2fe28adf8]of the million dollar challenge.
[www.alternativescience.com]
Quote
A quick glance through the provisions seems to show an eminently reasonable and fair challenge. But now go back and look again a little more carefully, this time with the kind of critical eye that Randi brings to exposing cheats and frauds. What you find are some ambiguities that are likely to make any serious claimant uneasy to say the least.
The first such ambiguity is contained in the preamble where it says, "Since claims vary greatly in character and scope, specific rules must be formulated for each applicant."
This means, quite reasonably, that the rules for any particular attempt cannot be finalised until a claimant steps forward and announces what he or she is going to do -- bend spoons, read minds or walk on fire. But it also means that Randi will fomulate the rules for each individual attempt at his challenge on an ad hoc basis. And, of course, the claimant has to agree to these ad hoc rules. If he or she does not agree, the contest will not take place at all.
The second ambiguity is in Clause 4, which says that "Tests will be designed in such a way that no "judging" procedure is required. Results will be self-evident to any observer, in accordance with the rules which will be agreed upon by all parties in advance of any formal testing procedure taking place."
This means, quite reasonably, that there will be no interminable arguments by 'experts' over statistical measurements. Either the spoon bends or it doesn't: either the claimant reads minds or he doesn't. The written rules, agreed up front, will decide.
But it also means that there will be no objective, independent judging or adjudication, by scientific criteria, carried out by qualified professional scientists. Randi alone will say whether the terms of the challenge have been met -- whether the metal was bent psychically, or the electronic instrument deflected by mental power, or the remote image was correctly reproduced. In the event that the claimant insists the written terms have been met, but Randi disagrees, then it will be Randi's decision that prevails.
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: December 02, 2006 12:57AM
A press release detailing findings of no deaths as the result of vitamin mineral or herbal product use released by the New Zealand coroner on October 12th 2006. Please note the comparison with 'acceptable' medicine at the end from the same article.
[www.scoop.co.nz]
Despite extensive research, coroner Dr Wallace Bain found no deaths have occurred in this country due to natural medicines such as vitamins, minerals and herbal products.
Dr Bain, who is also a trained pharmacist and lawyer, undertook the study in light of growing opposition to new legislation that will see New Zealand’s natural health industry come under Australian laws.
[u:ba27a3206c][b:ba27a3206c]The safety of natural products is often sited as a reason for the need for such a move.[/b:ba27a3206c][/u:ba27a3206c][/size:ba27a3206c]
The only thing he did find was that a child had choked to death on a vitamin tablet that was too large for them to swallow and that a woman terminated a pregnancy after being told her unborn baby had spina bifida. In this case it was shown that she had been taking 300mg of folic acid a day instead of the recommended 800mg.
Also- A man who died from non-viral hepatitis of unknown origin who also had a pre-existing prostrate cancer condition. The man had been taking an Indian herbal product K4. The Corner’s report said despite [b:ba27a3206c][u:ba27a3206c]no certainty of a link with the herbal product[/u:ba27a3206c][/b:ba27a3206c], the remedy such be banned until more was known about its effects on liver toxicity
Objectivity at work :roll: and yet :
[www.scoop.co.nz]
Despite extensive research, coroner Dr Wallace Bain found no deaths have occurred in this country due to natural medicines such as vitamins, minerals and herbal products.
Dr Bain, who is also a trained pharmacist and lawyer, undertook the study in light of growing opposition to new legislation that will see New Zealand’s natural health industry come under Australian laws.
[u:ba27a3206c][b:ba27a3206c]The safety of natural products is often sited as a reason for the need for such a move.[/b:ba27a3206c][/u:ba27a3206c][/size:ba27a3206c]
The only thing he did find was that a child had choked to death on a vitamin tablet that was too large for them to swallow and that a woman terminated a pregnancy after being told her unborn baby had spina bifida. In this case it was shown that she had been taking 300mg of folic acid a day instead of the recommended 800mg.
Also- A man who died from non-viral hepatitis of unknown origin who also had a pre-existing prostrate cancer condition. The man had been taking an Indian herbal product K4. The Corner’s report said despite [b:ba27a3206c][u:ba27a3206c]no certainty of a link with the herbal product[/u:ba27a3206c][/b:ba27a3206c], the remedy such be banned until more was known about its effects on liver toxicity
Objectivity at work :roll: and yet :
Quote
In contrast, deaths in 1998 (the last year of detailed official statistics available) caused by adverse reactions to pharmaceutical drugs killed 1524 New Zealanders and deaths associated with medical injury (mistakes by doctors and medical staff) killed 4222 New Zealanders.
Quote
A recent Australian study shows that 1 in 10 patients presenting to a general practitioner had an adverse pharmaceutical drug event in the preceding six months with 50% of those being in the moderate to severe range and 8% requiring hospitalisation.
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
kath
()
Date: December 02, 2006 01:04AM
Quote
cultreporter
A recent Australian study shows that 1 in 10 patients presenting to a general practitioner had an adverse pharmaceutical drug event in the preceding six months with 50% of those being in the moderate to severe range and 8% requiring hospitalisation.
Yes I've had one myself and it does make you think. But such are the unfortuate risks with medicines that actually do something :)
Think of the millions of lives saved or improved through asthma and diabetes meds and other meds being available.
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: December 02, 2006 01:19AM
So in your opinion Kath it is better to have free access to medical options that make a person sick and cause thousands of deaths per year (and please consider that these statistics come from a country with a relatively small population) than it is to have access to medical options that [i:0a7bb253c7][b:0a7bb253c7]might [/b:0a7bb253c7][/i:0a7bb253c7]not work but are certainly not hurting anybody?
I would have been most interested in your opinions on what I had to write about magnesium as being both a supplement [i:0a7bb253c7][b:0a7bb253c7]and[/b:0a7bb253c7][/i:0a7bb253c7] a prescription medicine. Do you supposse that the fact that I buy it from a health food store with Nature's Own rather than Alpha-Pharm stamped on the bottle that it must be less effective and/or dangerous?
I would have been most interested in your opinions on what I had to write about magnesium as being both a supplement [i:0a7bb253c7][b:0a7bb253c7]and[/b:0a7bb253c7][/i:0a7bb253c7] a prescription medicine. Do you supposse that the fact that I buy it from a health food store with Nature's Own rather than Alpha-Pharm stamped on the bottle that it must be less effective and/or dangerous?
James Randi : A Skeptics Guide
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: December 02, 2006 02:22AM
cultreporter:
OK.
You support and buy alternative products, such as dietary supplements etc.
This thread is getting a bit preachy and off such topics are not very relevant to this message board.
OK.
You support and buy alternative products, such as dietary supplements etc.
This thread is getting a bit preachy and off such topics are not very relevant to this message board.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.