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from emntk

To take a look at the culture of America at the time this was an extremely opportune moment, and I have read that he had studied the hippie culture. Early ISKCON deliberately set out to appeal to those who used mind altering substances, particularly LSD which was very popular at the time.

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami (ACBS) did not tailor his society for "hippies" nor did he study them. You should note that the hippies didn't really come into their own till 1966 and then became famous throughout 1967-68. His followers did try to tailor their proselytizing to the 1960's counterculture. ACBS was mostly oblivious to current trends western culture. Look at what he taught i.e no drugs allowed, no sex allowed. That was not going to win many friends amongst the counterculture which was about free love and orgies and constant drug use. ACBS came to the U.S. in 1965 along with many other asians because U.S. immigration laws changed. The laws had been discriminatory towards asians since the days of chinese labor flooding into california had caused lawmakers to clamp down on immigration from asia. See [en.wikipedia.org] So it was a serendipitous coming together. The immigration laws changed right at the time that a massive change in western society was starting to take place, part of which was a newfound interest in eastern religions. Anything "anti-establishment" was seen as "cool" to one degree or another. So by default ACBS generated interest because his teaching and sect was clearly extremely anti-establishment, at least to the minds of westerners.

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from emntk

ISKCON was always shamelessly collecting money and their followers still maintain a stigma for being pushy about getting donations and the also shameless courting of celebrities and media.

Outside of Inda ISKCON does not "court" celebrities. In fact the celebrities who have become involved with ISKCON have done so on their own. They certainly don't "court" media either. It's the media who seek out ISKCON for whatever reason they have. If ISKCON is in the media it is because of something some media outlet considers newsworthy that ISKCON or some member of ISKCON is doing. In India it is different. They have a very public presence there and have many followers and congregational members who work in the media and who work with or are related to celebrities or are celebrities. India is a different world then the west. Religious groups are not automatically looked down upon, nor are they treated as suspected right wing wackos by most Indian media, as is usually the case in most western media. ISKCON is very involved in many facets of Indian society so they are in the news a lot.

ISKCON was not always collecting money in the way they would become famous for. For the first years (until the early 70's) they would sell incense and magazines and a few books. By the early 70's the society shifted management from ACBS being directly involved with most decisions to his leading disciple taking over most aspects of management. That was when the airport solicitation began and the focus shifted away from chanting and dancing in public and selling incense etc, to dressing up like westerners and trying to solicit donations for various items like books, stickers, flowers, etc. at airports, concerts, malls, parking lots of large stores etc.

At that point ISKCON was expanding rapidly and there was a demand for large amounts of money to accomodate the various projects the leaders wanted to accomplish. Later in the late 1970's a new type of fund raising began. They would go to record wholesellers and buy "cutouts" which were albums that had not sold as well as had been expected and were sold off in bulk very cheaply. You could buy say 1000 albums for 25 cents apiece, some cost more some cost less. By the early 1980's album selling had replaced other types of soliciation for the most part. Some book selling at airports continued and the selling of other items continued, but most temples in the U.S. had heard and seen of the success of the album selling and took it up. Typically they were sold out of a car in parking lots of malls and large stores, concerts, etc. People would be shown a large collection of albums (this was when people still used vinyl) and were surpised they could get them for a "donation" of a few dollars. This was very successful. So successful that record wholesellers would say that many musicians had gold and platinum selling albums that they were never given credit for because of the huge amount of albums being sold by ISKCON. I know from experience that for some reason there was always a huge amount of George Clinton and Bootsy Collins albums available for very cheap, like 10 cents. So ISKCON devotees had huge numbers of Parliament-Funkadelic and Bootsy's Rubber Band records which were easily sold, especially in black neighborhoods.

Record sales was then supplanted by even more lucrative products; paintings and oriental rugs. They would buy mass produced paintings from Korea on the cheap and then sell them at a huge markup. These paintings are made in painting factories. Not by machines, by humans. They would have an assembly line of artists who would each contribute to a painting their speciality, which was done very quickly. These were mostly landscapes. They were sold in bulk to hotel chains, corporate chains, medical clinics etc. So ISKCON would buy these paintings in bulk and then sell them door to door in upscale neighborhoods, offices, etc. This was by far the biggest moneymaker ISKCON had hit upon. To give an example take a fairly large temple with 20 people who were full time sellers. On averge they would each make from $500-$1500 profit per day (all donations of course). So take $1000 X 20 = $20,000 per day. Imported cheap oriental rugs from India were also a big item which made comparable profits.

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from emntk

What has gone on there- child molestation, murder, embezzlement, sexual abuse, high divorce rate etc. Apparently there is about a 50% drop out rate of devotees.

Besides the children who were abused and the abusers and the leaders who knew about it, the rest of the society was in the dark about it. So when it first came out that there had been a child abuse situtation it came as new information to 99% of the society. The murders were done by a person (Drescher) associated with a person (Kirtanananda) thought of by most of the society as a renegade outsider. The murder rate for America fluctuates but in the year of those murders it was around 8-9 per 100,000 people. Two murders by one person in a society that has had over 100,000 members altogether since it's founding is quite below the national average. So people didn't leave ISKCON over child abuse or murder simply because hardly anyone knew of child abuse and the murders were a very isolated event in a place which was seen as very troubled by most people in ISKCON. Sexual abuse was certainly also isolated events and not the norm, and embezzlement is often charged but hardly ever proven. ISKCON has a high divorce rate because most people who marry while in ISKCON don't get to know each other very well before they are married. It's not like in secular society where people date, fall in love, etc and then get hitched. In ISKCON marriages made while they are in ISKCON (as opposed to married couples who join ISKCON) are usually done rather quickly and without much interaction and often times no dating at all before marriage. They are almost like arranged marriages in India except that they usually know of each other to some degree for some time (not always though) and simply develop a crush or develop sexual longings for the person and end up quickly getting married because they want to get busy. Because dating is looked down upon in ISKCON (as it is in India amongst the older generation and the religiously conservative i.e most of the population) instead of people simply dating to relieve their sexual longings and crushes on each other they instead get married, quickly. So, as is to be expected, these lust inspired quickie marriages have a high divorce rate.

The 50% overall dropout rate is wrong. A more accurate rate would be around 95% and even higher. That is for people who join an ISKCON temple as a full time member. Most people who join full time leave within a 1-4 years. Most of the rest will usually leave some time after, with a tiny percentage who stay longer then 20 years. That is not really unusual since ISKCON temples are bhakti yoga ashramas with strict monastic rules. In hindu and buddhist ashramas most people don't stay for very long, it is rare for a student to stay his whole life, the same for ISKCON. Even though most people leave that doesn't mean that they stop being involved completely. Most remain as congregational members to some degree. There is a small percentage who end up hating ISKCON and have nothing to do with it for various reasons, there is another small percentage who simply give up the religious belief system altogether (like many here on this forum), and there is a fairly large percentage who join other Hare Krishna sects i.e the followers of Narayana Swami, followers of Sridhar Swami, and numerous other groups headed by elderly Indian Hare Krishna gurus.

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from emntk

At the highest level there remains controversy over who is in charge, all but one of the original 'successor gurus' or 'appointed secretaries' depending which side you are on are considered to be fallen and ISKCON has spawned many gurus who were initiated disciples of Bhaktivedanta, which appears to have some form of spiritual credibility until you realise he initiated just about anyone who asked and had thousands of disciples.

You have it backwards. At the "highest level" there is no controversy over who is in charge i.e the people at "the highest level" ARE in charge and will tell you they plan on keeping it so. The controversy is amongst people outside of ISKCON for the most part. Some people in ISKCON would like to change the way the current system of management and authority in ISKCON operates, but most opposition comes from ex-members and people outside of ISKCON who have grudges against the leaders or have different interpretations from the current leaders on ACBS's wishes for how his sect was to be run after his death.

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I just find it very hard to accept that a religion so full of evil and corrupt behaviour and contradictions left and right started out legitimately and the story that one man could achieve all this on the level.

Well it's really a matter of perspective isn't it? How much "evil and corrupt behavior" is there when you look at it percentage wise i.e how much criminal and corrupt behavior divided by the number of people in the society since it's inception = not really different then most any other organization of similar size and scope. Most people in the society were perfectly civilized and sincere people who did no evil, were not corrupt, and were simply trying to achieve the goal of bhakti yoga. The number of people who did evil was a very small percentage of the number of former and current ISKCON full time members. I estimate that there has been at least 100,000 people who were full time members at some point for some duration since 1966. How many of those people were exposed as corrupt or "evil"? I put the number at between 50-100. Some of them were corrupted by money. Some were sexual and violent offenders. When looked at from the persepctive of societal norms I would say that ISKCON is not really very different percentage wise.

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from Me

Bhaktivedanta was a near-penniless mendicant when he arranged for free passage on a ship to the USA. The historian Klaus Klostermaier has written about meeting Bhaktivedanta in Vrindaban in the early 1960s. Bhaktivedanta came from a fairly wealthy familly, and was a fairly wealthy businessman in the 1930s and 1940s (he worked as a chemist), but he did abandon that wealth after some business reversals, and he became a mendicant monk in the 1950s.

Chemist being the british term for pharmacist. He was a pharmicist and also would travel and sell medicine.

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from Me

Although he was initiated into the Gaudiya Matha spiritual lineage, he was not one of his guru's "senior disciples" -- and he spent very little time before age 60 living in Gaudiya Matha temples in India. Even after age 60, he lived away from his lineage's temples more than he lived in them. As a result, many others in his lineage perceive that he made innovations which rendered his ISKCON movement inauthentic. These innovations range from a few matters of theology, to some matters of conduct (e.g. his willingness to let his "monastic" disciples get deeply involved in money-making and money-collecting to a degree considered unseemly by his Godbrothers in India).

He started his Back to Godhead Magazine in l944 and was sole writer, editor and publisher for many years until his disciples took over the task in the l960's. He wrote many articles for other Gaudiya publications. He supported an ashrama above his residence for Sridhara Swami and his disciples for 8 years. He was more senior in the Gaudiya society then many people realize. He was highly valued for his english fluency and scholarly side. He spoke often at Gaudiya functions such as this one in 1936 [www.prabhupadaconnect.com] He started the "League of Devotees" which was a precursor to ISKCON. He was titled Bhaktivedanta as a compromise because the senior man who gave him the title wanted to give him Bhaktisiddhanta as a title because of his scholarly ability, but that was nixed by other senior men because that was the title of their guru. So ACBS became the first Swami in the Gaudiya line to receive the Bhaktivedanta title.

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from Me

Some of those early supporters turned out to be drug dealers, and as their devotion grew they sought to impress their guru and support his movement by giving him their drug profits. ISKCON gained far more money from a few drug dealers than from all the airport solicitors combined.

That is not quite true. The drug dealers gave a few million dollars altogether. The airport solicitors in Los Angeles alone, when I was there in the late 1970's, were pulling in at least $10,000 per day. ISKCON also received a lot of money from Indians outside of India and from within India. Also many peole who joined ISKCON came from very wealthy families and had rather large inheritences and trust funds. For example Ambarisa Das aka Alfred Ford (trustee of Ford Motor Company) Urmila Dasi daughter of Bernard Manischewitz (RIP) and countless others with similar backgrounds of great wealth and dynastic families. I remember this guy who joined a year after me in Los Angeles. We were out riding arounnd L.A for some reason and as we rode along he would point out huge buildings his family owns. Or another guy I knew whose father was a major jewish banking figure worth hundreds of millions of dollars (billionaires today).

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from emntk

Thanks very much for all that, very interesting. Some accounts say that he even sufferred two heart attacks on the voyage to America, but I have not noticed this detail in any ISKCON bios available on-line.

It is usually mentioned in most official ISKCON biographies.

As far as the controversy here about his teaching of puranic cosmology or the stuff in the 5th canto of the Bhagavatam; ACBS didn't invent that stuff. He translated traditional hindu scriptures and then commented on them using the commentaries of previous gurus in his lineage, as is the custom in his sect.

What is the purpose of the Bhagavatam? Is it to enforce a cosmological world view on everyone? Or is it meant to educate people on self-realization?

The certainty of the cosmology of the Bhagavatam is relative to the scientific education of the receptor.

ACBS wrote in a letter to Krsna das (Nov. 7, 1972):

"These things are not very important; we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. . . . So we are concerned with Krsna consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam."

ACBS was well aware of the allegorical nature of Bhagavat cosmology. Nevertheless in his tradition the scriptures are always commented on as being literal first and foremost, and allegorical secondarily. There are different levels of understanding in the Bhagavatam, it gives both literal and allegorical narratives throughout. They serve a dual purpose for people on different levels of consciousness. In the modern age we face a very different reality than the pre-technological world. Today we can observe the cosmos with help from modern technology, in vedic times this was impossible. So the vedic cosmological conception, on the literal level, is for the audience of the vedic/non-technological world.

That mythological mindset is superior to the "modern" scientific epistemological worldview because it is designed for the purpose of creating a view of the world that is full of magic and unlimited possibilities. That mindset is full of exotic phenomena where mystical and fantastic possibilites are seen as the norm. That mindset is what the residents of non-technological society can experience. There, there is no modern science, there is no technology to contradict the fantasy realm that is created for their minds. Until modern technology, this was the case for the entire world. All cultures had a mythological fantasy worldview. They viewed the world around them as a magical realm full of magical creatures and magical possibilites.

That is actually a superior mindset in terms of enjoyment than the mundane reality. In the famous Wizard of Oz we find that the Wizard told Dorothy and her friends to ignore "the man behind the curtain". The façade of the great and terrible wizard was what was being offered to the residents of the magical Emerald City as absolute reality. The fantasy is more fun then the reality.

The Bhagavatam cosmology and mythology serves the purpose of creating a fantastical worldview for non-technological civilizations. It is superior to the mundane scientific reality. It is specifically designed to create a world of magic for the people in that society, it enhances their lives with an outlook full of magical fantastical possibilites created by the Vedic literature.

In the current world situation the magical worldview is not sustainable for all people. Especially people who are scientifically educated and very rationalistic rather than romantic and non-questioning when it comes to acceptance of an irrational [scientifically speaking] worldview. It is the nature of the modern age that scientific technological discoveries will naturally overide flat-fantastical cosmology and mythology.

This is why modern hindu acharyas like Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada make statements about the allegorical nature of the Bhagavatam. They understand that the Bhagavatam has a dual role: it teaches self-realization and it creates a magical worldview. The parts of the Bhagavatam that are incompatible with modern discoveries are written in such a way that they have allegorical meaning besides the literal meanings meant for a non-technological audience. Non-modern non-technological society is able to accept vedic magical realism at face value. They have no way and therefore no need to question the validity of the worldview propounded therein. Knowing this, we can understand why the puranas etc are obviously wrong on many accounts of cosmology. Their purpose was never about being scientifically correct. It was about being creative, about creating a fantastic world for people to believe in. Part of its purpose is to create a world of magic for the people in non-technological society. For us the essential value of the hindu scriptures is in the teachings on self-realization. So when people naturally question the validity of the puranas or Mahabharata etc, based on its questionable cosmology and magical worldview, we should understand that they serve different audiences for different purposes at different times.

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from zeuszor
pseudo-Christian type bull (Krsna worship was very much "sanitized" as a result of the introduction of Christianity into the culture, you must realize,

What evidence do you have for christian interpolation into the vaishnava religion?

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from zeuszor

and then there's the question of the hitoricity of "Lord" Chaitanya. That's for another time)

There are 2 famous biographies written near his time, they differ slightly on a few aspects of Chaitanya's life. There are no biographies of his life which were written by non followers of his. So any claim of faulty historicity is based on what? We have no way of knowing what was true and what was not in his biographies.

I have certainly been around plenty of religion in my life searching for the ultimate truth, a power greater than me and all that, and all I have concluded is that KC is the perfection of religion.

Everything good that happens Krishna does and everything bad that happens you do to yourself. KC does not even leave any loopholes for redemption such as simply being able to ask to be forgiven - oh no you have to work for it, and if you don't get the blissful life that comes of being pleasing to God then you are just not working hard enough.

I am sure Christian preachers sometimes wish they had thought karma to stop them from having to answer all those questions about why do bad things happen to good people?

I am sure that when I am done with trying to reveal Science of Identity and wading through all the evilness and hypocrisy of ISKCON that I may find the time to have a look at Lord Caitanya.

:?: I am wondering from just-googling's last post whether there is some dispute that he even existed? The story of his disappearance that I heard was that he walked into a statue of Jagganatha and was never seen again??

All I really know is that he poo-pooed the authority of the religious leaders of the day (something which is always bound to find an audience) and appealled to the disenfranchised, those considered to be low class and socially unacceptable. He made new beliefs out of the pre- existing and packaged it in a simpler and more appealing format. Essentially he was the original cult leader.

Seriously in KC I was taught that Krishna doesn't need our worship, and yet am suppossed to swallow the contradiction that he actually appeared on earth to show us how to worship him properly?

The mpre you learn the less any of it makes any sense.

See [www.culteducation.com]

[b:e6bb09fb72]Can Cultic Groups Change?
The Case of ISKCON

April 18, 1999 [/b:e6bb09fb72]

[b:e6bb09fb72]By Nori Muster, author of "Betrayal of the Spirit"--a book about Krishna [/b:e6bb09fb72]

The American Family Foundation (AFF) will host their 1999 "Conference: Cults, Psychological Manipulation & Society" and one the featured panel discussions will be about whether cults can change and will specifically focus on the case of ISKCON. The panel consists of Anuttama das, head of ISKCON Communications; Radha dasi, a dedicated follower; and two seemingly friendly observers--Michael Langone, director of AFF and Joseph Kelley a "thought reform consultant" closely tied to AFF.

It seems that the people on the panel will say ISKCON has changed for the better. I would like to offer a dissenting voice--since I was once a member of ISKCON, spent ten years in that organization and then devoted another decade studying and researching the group to produce books on the subject.

Originally there was a time when ISKCON was innocent. It truly represented a branch of Hinduism in a pure way. Many ISKCON members feel nostalgia for those days and their ideal is to make ISKCON just like it was when Srila Prabhupada their guru was alive and actively leading the group. If ISKCON were to change for the better, this would mean reviving that innocence.

However, in order to see what that would entail and whether ISKCON has successfully accomplished that ideal, it would be helpful to look at the years of lost innocence and see what went wrong.

[b:e6bb09fb72]Leadership[/b:e6bb09fb72]

Beginning in the early 1970s, certain greedy and cruel men came into power within ISKCON. If the organization now really wants to change for the better, it should remove all illegitimate gurus, Governing Body Commission (GBC) board members, temple presidents, sannyasis (priests), and zone managers. There are at least 20-30 illegitimate leaders that still remain firmly in place within its hierarchy.

[b:e6bb09fb72]Fundraising[/b:e6bb09fb72]

Beginning in the early 1970s, ISKCON sent its members into airports, malls and other public venues to sell books. After a short time, the leaders told them to dress in Western clothing and obscure their identity, until after they receive the money. In many temples, members were asked to lie about their identity and deny being Hare Krishnas, in order to get donations.

ISKCON leaders accepted tainted money from drug dealers and other illegal sources.

If things are to change for the better, ISKCON needs to solicit donations in a legitimate way and refuse all tainted money.
Recruitment
Throughout its history ISKCON has used irresponsible recruitment methods. The most "cult-like" aspect is that they encouraged interested people to move in and dedicate their whole lives to the organization, often giving up careers, and cutting ties with former friends and family. Legitimate religions promote living and working in the world, maintaining strong family ties and friendships. Many parents feel they lost their children to ISKCON.

In order for things to change for the better, ISKCON needs to stop such extreme control over their members’ lives.
Alienated Former Members
Over the years ISKCON’s board of directors has made many enemies, especially among former members. For example, they excommunicated a vocal critic named Puranjana (Tim Lee), after he accused one of the gurus of taking LSD--speaking about this violated their rules. Pranjana has now it seems become a lifelong enemy of ISKCON.

Another vocal critic named Sulochan (Steve Bryant) was excommunicated after he accused one of the gurus of selling drugs and running a prostitution ring. Sulochan was then murdered by a Krishna hitman shortly after his excommunication.

Some of these former members have dedicated their lives to toppling the current ISKCON leadership through lawsuits or public opinion. ISKCON leaders keep them away by claiming that these onetime Krishna devotees have certain ideological differences that are dangerous. In reality, their differences are very minor, but these disagreements have resulted in beatings, death threats and even murder.

If things are to change for the better, ISKCON needs to acknowledge these former members and make peace with them. This would be an obvious sign that things have actually changed for the better.
Child Abuse
I am currently writing a book about the rampant abuse of the first generation of Krishna kids, born in the late 1960s to early 1970s. These people deserve justice. It has been almost ten years since this abuse became known. But it took until 1996 for the GBC to acknowledge the problem. In 1998 the organization made this abuse known publically in press releases to The New York Times and other news agencies. However, in all those years, they have only raised about $30,000 to compensate the victims and ISKCON has substantial resources. They could locate almost all of the child abuse victims by using class photos, but that will probably never happen.

The attitude of ISKCON's leadership so far seems to be keeping the victims quiet by offering them checks for $500.00. They appear to be trying to find out who the abusers are, but do little other than giving the men a slap on the wrist. This is humiliation upon humiliation for the victims. This serious issue may ultimately have to be sorted out in a courtroom. ISKCON has done a lot of talking, but has actually taken little action--with the exception of Anuttama and his wife Rukmini, who donated about $15,000 of their own money to the cause.

If things are to change for the better in ISKCON--I believe it would be more reasonable to give $30,000 for each count of abuse to each victim.
Spousal Abuse
For a long time, ISKCON has had leaders who beat their wives and advocate wife-beating among the other married men. Also, ISKCON arranged marriages between minor-aged girls and often abusive men. The girls’ complaints were generally ignored.

In order for ISKCON to really change for the better, they must come out in the open about their spousal abuse problem, remove abusers from official positions, and compensate the victims.
Other Abuse
Over the years, many innocent people were beaten or kicked out of temples because they sided with the wrong political interests. The temple leaders keep their enemies away by threatening them, but this creates a sick environment throughout the organization.

In order for ISKCON to really change all these attitudes must change and then it could really become a better organization.

[b:e6bb09fb72]Note: [/b:e6bb09fb72]After this article was posted within the Hare Krishna archive at this database the American Family Foundation (AFF) decided to post it within their website.