Will you take a few minutes to answer my questions please?

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NathanA
The only thing he does in those interviews is challenge people to search truth out for themselves. Your accusations are complete nonsense to me Brian. I find it very hard to take you seriously.

Nathan,

You dismiss the things we are saying wholesale, without responding to the specific points anyone is making. Believe me, I understand that Ole is a persuasive teacher and that what he says sounds good. Note the following passage from Scripture:

Matt.23 (RSV)
[1] Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples,
[2] "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat;
[3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; [b:6880e996fd]for they preach, but do not practice.[/b:6880e996fd]
[4] They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.
[5] They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
[6] and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues,
[7] and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men.
[8] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.
[9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
[10] Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.
[11] He who is greatest among you shall be your servant;
[12] whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Though I have come to see that there are, indeed, some problems with the doctrine that is taught by Trinity Foundation, that is not why I initially left. I left because their practices did not line up with what they taught. All of your defenses of Trinity Foundation pretty much go back to what they say, which you seem to take at face value. That is fine as far as it goes, but there are people out here telling you that what they do does not match up with what they say. In a word, they are hypocrites.

Ole says and teaches a lot of things that are right. Indeed, he sometimes says things that are profound. Nevertheless, he is a Pharisee, and so are John and Gary. They do not live by the very doctrine that they preach. They have chosen, as a response to Wendy's book, to exalt themselves rather than humble themselves. The fact that there are so many people out here damaged and hurting in the wake of their involvement with Trinity should cause them to tremble and to rend their garments before the Lord. There are many who no longer even name the name of Christ as a result of their time at Trinity, and if I were them I would be praying that the Lord does not require their blood at my hands.

Hello, all. I am going offline for a couple of days what with the holidays coming up and couldn't resist throwing in my two cents' worth before I go.

Nathan, you are obviously free to believe whatever you want. You have not done a thorough, objective investigation yourself to see whether these things be true (which I assure you they are). You are here telling people what their experiences were and were not and have made a decision without examining the evidence.

So please, please, until you do so, that is, read the book, objectively analyze the evidence in the light of your own experiences with TFI (which are near zero) and then come back with an informed opinion, please keep your comments to yourself. In the absence of a real point to make, something to bring to the table for discussion, you have resorted to insults and ad hominem attacks. The only point you come to the table with is "You're lying! That didn't happen to you! I know what your experience was better than you do and if you don't think so you must not be saved!" Your arguments are utterly lacking in objectivity, logic, and a sound sense of Scriptural context. I'll bet that you cut and paste text out of emails that Gary sends you and pass them off here as your own arguments. It sounds at times like you're reading off a script.

So please Nathan, until you have a well-rounded sense of what you're talking about, until you've read Wendy's book, until you've spent some time on the Block and have interacted with these people for anything more than a casual period of time, until you have critically and objectively examined the evidence, until you are qualified to tell us about what TFI culture is like, than please, go away. Hell man, you've never met any of these people in person. Doesn't that mean something to you? The best thing you can come up with in terms of a defense of TFI is "You're lying!" You sound foolish, stubborn and naive and everybody knows it but you. Nothing personal, as I don't know you. [b:7ddbc3a317]If you believe Ole's doctrine, you are decieved and are believing a lie. Period. That's not a safe "in my opinion", that's the stone cold truth.
[/b:7ddbc3a317]

Your continuing presence actually makes our task easier, because you are unwittingly proving part of our point for us...that is, that TFI does not lead people to Jesus by teaching discernment by means of a good Scriptural foundation. TFI leads people to OLE ANTHONY by means of twisted Scriptures. You are following and defending a false teacher, a latter-day Diotrephes, the leader of a modern-day Gnostic cult. You are being decieved.

Quit trolling, Nathan.

[b:e6593de229]An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.

Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.

Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.

Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.[/b:e6593de229]


Nathan, you know what you are doing. Do you [i:e6593de229]actually believe[/i:e6593de229] the nonsense that you write here? Quit trying to piss people off and keep it real.

You would do well to free yourself from the infuence of the Columbia Mystery Religion.

Trust me, Trinity is a cult.

That place is the primary reason I'm an atheist today.

I don't understand how I have not addressed your questions specifically. I thought I have answered you guys pretty head on. Brian, you really misread where I am coming from. I'm not trying to sow discord. I question myself about this all the time. I wonder how I would really know if I wasn't truly thinking for myself? I say what my genuine sentiments and questions are, insofar as I am willing to expose them publicly. This is not a sport or a game to me.

This is pretty frustrating. If I have further hurt anyone who has been damaged by TFI, I am truly sorry. However, in my own integrity, God as my witness, I am not convinced you guys accurately portray this group and its leaders. If I can have eyes to see that I am wrong, and that is proven, I hope that I will admitt that and give you the apology that is due.

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God of Meat
Trust me, Trinity is a cult.

That place is the primary reason I'm an atheist today.

Welcome, God of Meat.

Have you read Wendy Duncan's book about Trinity Foundation and if so, do you agree with her version?

Maybe you can help NathanA since the others have failed.

Every day that Ole Anthony is alive is another day that I know that the Devil is alive and well.

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However, in my own integrity, God as my witness, I am not convinced you guys accurately portray this group and its leaders. If I can have eyes to see that I am wrong, and that is proven, I hope that I will admitt that and give you the apology that is due.

Nathan, you refuse to accept a free book, read it, and then get back with us to share your impressions and comments about what you've read. You refuse to objectively consider evidence that paints a picture contrary to the one you already have of TFI and its leader. You refuse to answer my questions: 1) what exactly do you think we are lying about? Do you think this is all just a campaign to smear your idol? Do you think that none of us knows what we are talking about? 2) please, explain to me what the nonsense phrase "you have no rights" means [i:0e2193b932]in your own words[/i:0e2193b932] and 3) (related to #1) what about all of the other ex-members of TFI that testify to the abusive, demonic nature of the place? Are they all [i:0e2193b932]wrong [/i:0e2193b932] about their experiences there?

"You have no rights", what a bunch of BS. That's an abuser's copout phrase when he want to get one over on you. Do I have the right to [i:0e2193b932]not[/i:0e2193b932] be abused, condescended to, and generally treated like dirt by people I trust? Do I have the right to stand up for myself and call evil evil?

So tell me please, Nathan, what would it take to satisfy you? Under what conditions would you be convinced? What would constitute "proof" of what we say in your mind? What will it take, Nathan? I offered you a free book. I have offered to discuss this with you personally, by phone. I have tried and tried to get this information out to you and you refuse to accept it. Then you come to the table and say "I don't believe it! There's an absence of truth in your claims!" Well, duh! How do you know? You refuse to see the evidence! You've never met these people! Do you really want to learn something here, are you willing to be objective in analyzing this matter? Or have you got no desire to be reasoned with, no desire to learn? What would it take to satisfy you that we're not just making it all up out of the blue?

Now, will you please answer my above questions point by point? In your own words. Spell it out for me like I am six years old.

Okay, here is my reply to your questions:

1)I do not believe these are outright fabrications made by Doug, Wendy, or you Brian. I do believe they are exaggerations and perversions of things that are more open to debate than any of you leave room for. I do not believe that Trinity's doctrine is heretical for example, though some of you do. That is very debatable. As for the the abuse claims, I liken it to Jesus saying "let the dead bury the dead" to a man whose father passed away. Yes from one perspective you could say that was verbally abusive and completly hurtful. It was the truth God spoke though. I believe that is the kind of thing you are labelling as abuse.

2)You speak as if the phrase "you have no rights" were not my own words. However, for your sake I will put it differently. Jesus willingly let himself be brutalized, humiliated, and killed for our sakes. Did Jesus retain any of his own will in this? No. He obeyed the Father unto death for your salvation. Our society believes that every human being deserves to have their basic needs met, to be treated justly, and have the freedom to do what they wish. Many would call these things "human rights." However, in light of Christ willingly giving up these basic things in order to save us who have sinned in the sight of God, we too are called to be living sacrifices. The scriptures say this is our reasonable service. This is basic Christianity - reformation theology. Jesus said "if anyone tries to save his life, he will lose it." Your life is not your own. As a true disciple of Jesus Christ, those basic entitlements called "rights" no longer belong to you.
To conclude this point, I leave you with a quote from the famous Christian missionary Doctor, Helen Roseveare. I choose this as a source external to Trinity. This is from her book "Living Sacrifice":

"God had often shown me that I was to have no rights, no right to decide or to choose, no right to own or to possess. All rights were to be His. If I gave Him my will honestly(which I believe for me is the ultimate meaning of loving God with all my soul), then He alone had the right to control and guide my will." -pg.68, 1979 edition
In this book Helen goes on to tell her story of being beaten, raped, and imprisoned.
You are blinded by pride if you fail to see what I am talking about here Brian. If I am parroting someone, it is not Trinity when I used that phrase. In all honesty, I wasn't even thinking of Helen Roseveare here either when I used the phrase, "you have no rights."

3)Well, I am skeptical that every single person who has left there feels as you do. I would guess people have left for a variety of reasons. Even so, I know that the TFI leaders are indeed controversial men, and you won't have your ears tickled by any of them. Jesus drove away many followers too. I am more willing to trust someone who drives people away than one who draws them in(ie. Joel Osteen) That in itself does not mean something is true or false, but it is a point of discernment. Do I dismiss the stories of every single person who has left Trinity? No. I do however take it with a grain of salt. Take for example the story of Cricket, whom you posted. She had the honesty to admitt that Ole had in fact, done some genuinely kind things for her. You however are saying things like," Every day that Ole Anthony is alive is another day that I know that the Devil is alive and well." Her attitude about Ole is notably different from yours.


I really hope to let Christ be the plumb line. At this point , I do not see serious inconsistancies with Trinity and the Jesus I believe. I don't actually believe many people can accept the very high demands made by Christ. I believe many people today would react to him just as you have reacted to TFI. You don't even recognize the Christ you claim to believe.