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zeuszor

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zeuszor

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NathanA
I am not convinced the book is worth reading. I am not convinced that it has done any good. I wouldn't read a book that I believed was damaging.
I base that on the absence of truth I see in the reviews I've read about it, as well as the abscence of truth in the things some of you are saying.

What exactly is it that you think that we are lying about?

We're still waiting, Nathan. I repeat: What exactly is it that you think that we are lying about?

We're [i:91a1b10fbc]still[/i:91a1b10fbc] waiting for you to address these questions, Nathan.

[b:951a027d59]Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household?

Mat 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Mat 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.[/b:951a027d59]


Why don't you spend some energy and time in thinking about and answering my questions, instead of turning the focus on me? It is easy and convenient to make fun of somebody, like you made fun of me, when they tell you something you don't want to hear. It is also intellectually lazy (the ad hominem fallacy) and dishonest. The discussion is not about me and what a bad person I am. I know that I am not perfect. I have OCD and PTSD, take Prozac sometimes, and used to like to smoke marijuana and drink a lot of kava as a form of self-medication. While I was with TFI, I barely ever cleaned my room and it became quite, quite messy after a while. I was pretty shell-shocked. All this posting has been most therapeutic for me. Nowadays I read the Bible a lot and it gives me even more peace than the herb ever could. So kindly don't try and turn the tables. Please put some time and expend some mental energy in answering these simple questions. It seems that you are quite biased against these claims because they do not fit the picture you have of TFI.

[b:efda67a4d9]An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself. [/b:efda67a4d9]

[b:4e02478d79]And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. (Eph. 5:11, NKJV)[/b:4e02478d79]

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NathanA
It think you fail to discern the truth. Have you been abused by Ole?

Nathan, I KNOW that you fail to discern the truth. Have you ever [i:4e02478d79]met[/i:4e02478d79] Ole and spent substantial time around him?

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NathanA
Okay, I feel I should communicate clearly what i mean when I said that I question if Wendy knows the Jesus who came to give his life a ransom for many. I cannot of course speak of salvation, but I mean that she does not seem to believe in a Jesus who demands that your life be a sacrifice without condition. That you can't nurse your victimhood or justify selfish anger. That is not the cross.

When I talk to those who have been sexually or physically abused, I understand that anger is a normal part of healing. I do not however nurture or feed those angry sentiments, because they become a destructive force. Rather we hope to lead people into grace and forgiveness. If they don't come to that, they risk becoming abusers themselves. You can justify all kinds of terrible behaviors if you will only see yourself as a victim.

Zeuszor is right, Nathan. This is a good example of an [i:a2f3a1bb3e]ad hominem [/i:a2f3a1bb3e]attack. I have now been married to Wendy for seven years and I can tell you that she has a deep and genuine relationship with Christ. Where do you get off questioning her belief? Wendy and I are not "nursing our victimhood," we are speaking out to expose some problems with a group in Dallas that has spiritually damaged a number of people and refuses to take responsibility for that, or to even honestly entertain the question of why or how that could have happened. Somehow, Wendy and I have become the mouthpiece for the many former members who have been unable to do what we are doing in making the truth about Trinity public.

Michelle,

In response to your long justification of Trinity, it feels a bit tedious to go through point by point. I think it would tend to have a he said/she said quality, so instead I will try to respond in a more general way.

Of course you do not think Trinity fits the criteria of a cult. I assume if you thought that, you wouldn’t be there. I did not think it fit the criteria either while I was still there and I would talk to former members like my sister, Pam & Larry, Rick, Powell, etc. I was able to mount just as articulate a defense of Trinity as you did. However, I was not being truly honest with myself. In my heart of hearts, I knew that there were serious problems there.

It was only after I left that I slowly began to gain some perspective on what it was that I had been involved in. Part of what helped me along in that process was how Wendy and I were treated in the process of leaving and shortly afterward. The fact is, I really did try to leave in a friendly, non-confrontational way, but there was no way to do that. Even though I did not want to be, I was cast in the role of an enemy. I honestly do not know if things would be different now if Trinity had handled our departure differently. I might have eventually arrived at the same view, but I think how we were treated speeded the process along.

The fact that people who are still at Trinity defend the place is not convincing. People who are currently involved in the Unification Church defend it, and they do not believe they are in cult, either. The best measure I can think of as to how to think of a group is to ask the former members, people who have left. Of course, among people who leave a group you are always going to have some detractors, even a few “disgruntled” former members. However, the thing that is so striking in Trinity’s case is that it is pretty darn near unanimous among former members who spent any significant amount of time there with more than a casual level of involvement that Trinity is, indeed, a cult. That absolutely would not be true of any group that was not a cult. In any other type of religious group you would have former members saying stuff like, “Well, I don’t really go along with what they are doing, but there are some people that it works for. It’s good for some people, just not for me.” However, to my knowledge, nobody is saying that about Trinity. Wendy interviewed dozens of people for her book, and we’ve talked to even more since the book came out. All, or almost all, of them say that Trinity is a brutally abusive place that did terrible damage to them. Even Nathan A understands what a damning fact this is if it is true, so he challenges our veracity on it. He says we are just making this fact up, because if we are telling the truth about this and it really is as extreme as we say it is, then it has serious implications. Nevertheless, I have more respect for his position than I do yours or anyone who is actually at Trinity. Neither you, Ole, Pete, the Rutledges, or the Buckners have shown the least bit of integrity in how you have responded (or, more accurately, how you have avoided responding) to the important issues we are raising.

Maybe we are making this up. Maybe Wendy and I got this idea that we would write a book about our former friends and make up a bunch of lies so we could sell lots of copies and make some money. If that was what we thought, we were pretty stupid. This has been a lot of work for what looks like a venture that we will be lucky to break even on. Financially, we would have done a lot better just to take a weekend job tearing ticket stubs at a movie theater. Nevertheless, we have accomplished the most important thing in what we set out to do, which was to tell the truth.

By the way, it was not only men who got their feet burned at the fire walking incident. At least one woman (Jackie M.) did, as well.

Tonight I spoke with Cricket, another ex-member who does not have a computer. I asked her if I could record her testimony and put it online, and she agreed to it. We talked for about three hours by phone and she was very very emotional while relating this to me. To the persons she refers to, you know who you are. She was in tears as she dictated this to me and expressed great a great deal of pain in recalling her experiences of being abused at TFI. But she agrees that if expressing her pain, speaking out as we have, could help others get out of there, then it'd be worth it to recount this to me. The letter follows:
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"Where did the Christianity go? The people that I once thought were my friends and family have now shown me an epiphany that they never were. It was all an illusion, an illusion that has never escaped me but rather haunts me. Having had many recent visits to TFI through my dear friend (Suzette) has only shown me yet another thing. I too would have to agree with the title "I Can't Hear God Anymore." I recently went there seeking forgiveness and their attitude was that if I say "I'm so sorry, please forgive me" their attitude was to tell me how no-good and ungrateful a person I was, and to accuse me of how I palmed off my most precious gift during my times of trial and strife (A.M.). Only six years later to have it thrown back in my face. I find myself when I visit the Block, for whatever reason, I want to take a stroll down memory lane, I find myself not experiencing memory lane but amnesia lane. I will say that there are many people there who are good...but where did the forgiveness go? It seems that the only people who are truly welcome at TFI are those who are homeless, who are on drugs, who are alcoholics, (these make cheap labor) or perhaps if you are heir to a fortune that you could possibly donate someday...all others are not welcome. In God we trust, all others pay cash. That would be my response to TFI. They cannot seem to let go of something that happened six years ago and it was all about what I should do for THEM. All because of the help that they had given me, and which I am very grateful for. Joysanna Rutledge will someday become heir to the foundation, but she was not, how could she become heir to the Foundation when she has SO LITTLE COMPASSION? By what means? By whose means? Was it God's doing? Did God have a place in any of this? You would think that one in such a position would have love, compassion and forgiveness. That seems to escape her; what she doesn't understand is that the ones that she fired and the ones who she ran off (including myself) are hurting. The community is built on the backs of everybody in the community, and not just the Levites. Where is God in any of this? How can they call themselves a Christian ministry? There is a strong, clear, definitive line between Christianity and their beliefs. A true Christian would take their issues to the Lord and not take them back from Him. My question: where is God? I am tired of being judged, and upon meeting with them for one last time for a chance at forgiveness, for thinking that I might find some form of happiness and peace that I once experienced...instead I was mentally slapped, punched, and stabbed to death. Who needs enemies when you have "loving Christians" like these? In my experience with TFI lately I have found a handful of people who have been kind and compassionate loving thoughtful and kind toward me and for you I am grateful. And for the rest, I pray for them as we all do need prayer but to the ones that have hurt me the worst (you know who you are) because as you read this God will confirm this within you and you will have that condemning spirit within you. My heart bleeds for the children that are being forced to grow up in this mixture of what real community is and I pray that they will find the truth.

What I have to say to Ole I have already told him. I do love you, and when I was at my very lowest point and no one else would help me I'll never forget. One evening your kindest act towards me you asked me how I was doing my laundry and I told you that I was doing it in my bathtub. You took out your wallet and you gave me $20, for all that mattered, you gave me the world. You were kind to me and to my son and that never left me. And though there are many times that you and I have disagreed one thing is for sure: I am a human being as you are a human being and I don't believe in putting any man on such a pedastal. And I told you I loved you and my love for you grows. And how it grows! It grows as long as the Lord continues to show me love, kindness, and respect, the love I did not get from TFI.

I know that I will continue to love you and want the best for you, and hopefully people will see that you are not a demigod. I am grateful for all the help I recived in the past. I hurt for the past, the present, and the future of TFI. I do not wish to hurt anybody by my remarks. I just really wanted to bear my testimony and share my feelings, which are true. And the phrase that I was taught day in and day out while I was in TFI, "Turn to the cross"...my response is that you better get off the cross, 'cause somebody else needs the wood! I AM NOT THE ANTICHRIST, AS I WAS ONCE TAUGHT. MY MIND IS NOT THE ANTICHRIST AS I WAS ONCE TAUGHT."[/b:5d44d34047]

She's a good friend of mine and left TFI back around the year 2000, long before I was there. I called her tonight, she did not call me, and we hadn't spoken in several weeks. She is Suzette's best friend and we met through her. Cricket recently went to a Seder after having been gone for 6 years or so and told me that once she was told that Cricket was on the Block, before Seder, J R. called a special meeting that Sunday afternoon so that everybody could confront Cricket about why she left. This was a few weeks ago. (In the TFI world, there is no good reason to leave, and once you do, you are either erased from memory or thought of as a bad person and gossipped about mercilessly behind your back). From the description of the unrelentingly confrontational and abusive experience she told me she had that day at the Rutledge's it sounds a lot to me like they put her on the Hot Seat. Good Lord. They all got together and verbally beat her up for a couple of hours. What blows me away is the venom they spewed and meanness with which she says she was treated, from people that I know to normally be as nice and normal-seeming as anybody else. Like (names deleted to protect the innocent). Yelling, laughing, mocking...[i:e2dd77ab3e]come on guys, if you are reading this, what did that accomplish? [/i:e2dd77ab3e] Nobody deserves that kind of treatment and[i:e2dd77ab3e] all she did was[/i:e2dd77ab3e] [i:e2dd77ab3e]leave TFI.[/i:e2dd77ab3e] What kind of Christian love is that? For God's sake, you hadn't seen her in six years and her welcome back was a Hot Seat. What is amazing to me is that she still agreed to go to Seder and Big Group. Probably it was because Suzette was her ride and was so kind of stuck. Suzette still goes around and has Ole baby-sit Princess. Judging from the way Cricket was bawling in recounting the thing to me, I believe her, too. She showed up on the block and got jumped and got her butt kicked, psychologically speaking. Cricket was [i:e2dd77ab3e]very very[/i:e2dd77ab3e] shaken up. I have sunk to a new level of pity toward and disgust with you. That's just plain mean and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. God, that's sad. Apparently, they all think I am totally out of my mind, too, and ridiculed Cricket for [i:e2dd77ab3e]associating with me[/i:e2dd77ab3e]. She knows that that was ridiculous. She knows that I am no more crazy than anybody else that is or has been a part of TFI. NathanA, if you are reading this, these [i:e2dd77ab3e]are not[/i:e2dd77ab3e] nice people. What they put her through was sheer sadistic meanness. [i:e2dd77ab3e]Remember, this was just a few weeks ago, too.[/i:e2dd77ab3e] I pity you all. Tell me that that ain't a cult.

As far as me attacking Wendy's character in an ad hominum attack, I would say that I don't know Wendy and so i don't know first hand what she is like. I am saying that I did not find her quote Christ-like. In that sense, I can see why she did not jive with Trinity, because in my view Trinity teaches a very Christ centred doctrine. In a nutshell, I could not imagine Jesus saying what she said in that quote.

I realize I said I had little left to challenge until I read the book or had new information. When I read that quote, it put me off enough that I wanted to post my sentiments about it. It seemed to reveal an essential difference in mindset than what TFI's leaders would espouse to.

I don't by the way know where you get the idea Brian, that I am letting Gary or anybody else think for me. For example, just because you agree with Doug and Wendy, doesn't mean that you are letting them think for you. I may agree with much of TFI's theology, but you cannot say that means I don't believe it for myself. Have you listened to "the Same as it ever was"? It is a series of radio interviews with Ole. The only thing he does in those interviews is challenge people to search truth out for themselves. Your accusations are complete nonsense to me Brian. I find it very hard to take you seriously.

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NathanA
As far as me attacking Wendy's character in an ad hominum attack, I would say that I don't know Wendy and so i don't know first hand what she is like. I am saying that I did not find her quote Christ-like. In that sense, I can see why she did not jive with Trinity, because in my view Trinity teaches a very Christ centred doctrine. In a nutshell, I could not imagine Jesus saying what she said in that quote.

I realize I said I had little left to challenge until I read the book or had new information. When I read that quote, it put me off enough that I wanted to post my sentiments about it. It seemed to reveal an essential difference in mindset than what TFI's leaders would espouse to.

I don't by the way know where you get the idea Brian, that I am letting Gary or anybody else think for me. For example, just because you agree with Doug and Wendy, doesn't mean that you are letting them think for you. I may agree with much of TFI's theology, but you cannot say that means I don't believe it for myself. Have you listened to "the Same as it ever was"? It is a series of radio interviews with Ole. The only thing he does in those interviews is challenge people to search truth out for themselves. Your accusations are complete nonsense to me Brian. I find it very hard to take you seriously.

Believing in TFI theology does not make it true, Nathan. Just because you believe it is true does not make it true. That is the nature of deception. It looks good. It sounds good. It seems good. But it is not good. The truth is, Nathan, that you are believing a lie. What Ole teaches is spiritual Thalidiomide. Evil, spiritually perverse poison. I pray that you come to a full knowledge and realization of the truth of this matter.


[b:460c7adb9d]2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[/b:460c7adb9d]