Let's be careful with our terms here. When I say that TFI fits the criteria to be called a cult I make that judgement based on these three criteria:

1) Is there an authoritarian leader running the show with no meaningful accountability? YES

2) Are there doctrines and/or techniques in place that involve a process of systematically using coercive persuation/thought reform/"brainwashing" methods to mold the minds of the members in serving the leader and the "cause"? YES

3) Are the members, particularly the "inner circle" close to the leader, exploited financially, sexually, psychologically, etc. BY the leader? YES


A healthy church has a democratically-elected chuch leadership with a written constitution and bylaws that the leadership is governed by and held ACCOUNTABLE to. A healthy church is a FINANCIALLY ACCOUNTABLE AND TRANSPARENT church. This holds as well for the finances of its leaders; their salaries, etc. are in the public record. A healthy church has EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS at the topmost levels for its leadership. TFI is missing all of these.

hahaha Now I sound like I'M reading off of a script! Nathan, it's your call. Can you handle the truth?

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Let me ask them. Some of them were here for years, some for months, some just visited.

You can skip the ones who just visited. I was there for 20 years, remember? I don't think I am going to be impressed by anyone who just visited the place and thought it was neat. But if there are people who spent time there and were legitimately involved and who do not think it is a cult, I would love to speak to them. I probably already know them, anyway.

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rrmoderator
zeuszor:

Warning.

Please refrain from derisive comments or name calling such as "cowpoop."

There should be reasonable courtesy at this message board.

Sorry RR. I mean to say that Ole teaches spiritual Thalidiomide.

Whats funny is that people are forgetting that I did indeed leave Trinity and was actually part of the original group of ex-members. I sat with Pam, Larry, Powell and others and we had great fun putting down Trinity, putting you and Ole and the other elders down. You're forgetting that I...myself...called it a cult after P/L/P/S/T told me it was.

I was angry...of course I would have agreed with them that it was a cult and to me back then at that particular time in my life, it was. I wanted it to be cult. I wanted to despise you and the elders and everyone else that I felt made my life miserable. The ex-members thought that my husband and I were treated extremely unfairly and when I went to meet with them or talk to them, we would do nothing but whine about our 'terrible' experiences there. I did bring up once that I felt perhaps that my actions (lying) was probably wrong but they said it didn't matter. They said I was 'JUSTIFIED" in my lies and that God forgave me. I remember that clearly.

They said that I wouldn't have been kicked out of a regular church for my lying. That would be true, I suppose. But then again, I would never have confessed to lying at a regular church to begin with.

Of course, my husband started to get pretty uncomfortable and said that I really need to not talk to them again. He felt that they were infecting me with their bitterness. So...we left for another state and the more that I was away from others that talked bad about Trinity the more I thought about it. They would say terrible things that make me cringe like "hopefully that a**hole (Ole) will die so that we can go back to Trinity". I won't go into what they called you..LOL.

Phrases like that and the ones about you turned my stomach.

I, at that point, just didn't care about Trinity or the ex-members and their talk. I just didn't want to have anything much to do with any of them.

But...being away and going to different churches for 4 years made me realize that the doctrine that Trinity preaches was what I believed in and it took me awhile to find that out so we went back to give Trinity another chance and to give ourselves another chance. Of course, that was when you and Wendy were exiting. I was somewhat fearful of you still at that time but when you left, I felt relieved a bit (sorry just being honest).

What shocked me coming back to the group was that they stopped the hotseats, Ole didn't teach night bible studies in fact his health went downhill and he is rarely around now, the people were all more mellow and I asked them why and what happened to the fervor they use to have. I was told..."its no longer necesarry. We tried it for a bit, didn't like it and moved on." And they have been like this for the last 7 years that you and Wendy have been gone.

I truly hope that some of the ex-members can let go of their anger and I say this because I was there, kicked out, became an angry ex-member, lost my self pity, came back and will again be leaving (but for different reasons).

I know what others are feeling and even you have to admit that I probably had the Worst hotseats EVER. Worse than you or any of the ex-members. And I tell you now...it will NEVER happen to me again. But I needn't worry about that because they don't happen. Can I compare myself to them...I feel that I can since during my time there at first, I had it worse than most of them. In fact, alot of ex-members were the ones that gave me my WORSE hotseats (ironic...isn't it).

Like I said...the difference between myself and those that Wendy interviewed is that I didn't lose God. I stopped pitying myself and blaming others for my misery. This is just my opinion and as honest as I can possibly be.

I understand your point. I understand Brian's point. I understand the ex-members. I just choose to let it go and be as honest about how Trinity is now that I can be.

**whew**. I know that I'm not going to sway anyone's opinion and at this point...I guess I really don't care. If any of the ex-members want to apologize for what they did to ME, they can. Don't just blame Ole...that makes me mad. Some of them, including you Doug, did the hotseats with relish. Own up to that and realize that your actions are your own. NO ONE forced you or others. Just when it came time for your own hotseats did any of you gripe.

**Yes Doug...I know that you apologized but others did not and perhaps, I'm still a bit hurt and angry that I feel you and others blame your actions on someone else. Don't know..you're the psychologist.**

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NathanA
This forum is really heating up. I said it earlier and I will say it again. My reasons for not yet reading the book, are not because i'm afraid that i'll be wrong, or that i don't want to for that matter. I have not read the book because I have not been sure it is beneficial. Anyone can write a book that is an indictment of someone else. To me it is a matter of conscience. For example, I would not buy a book that said the Jews were responsible for World War II. As far as I know, there is no prerogative that you must have read Wendy Duncan's book in order to post here. Although it is wise to be well informed. The discussion here is whether or not TFI is a cult, and what is the evidence for that? You could say that I am not being objective there, but that is not necessarily the case. I am open to the idea of reading the book, but only when i am convinced there is just cause to. Thus far I have only questioned you and stood firm to see your very best arguements. The most extreme thing I've said is that you fail to recognize the Christ I believe in. I am not intending to be inflammatory to anyone. I am not name calling.

What will it take for us to persuade you to read the book, Nathan? Under what conditions or circumstances would you believe there to be "just cause" to do so? Please, I am here to help you, not hurt you.

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zeuszor

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NathanA
This forum is really heating up. I said it earlier and I will say it again. My reasons for not yet reading the book, are not because i'm afraid that i'll be wrong, or that i don't want to for that matter. I have not read the book because I have not been sure it is beneficial. Anyone can write a book that is an indictment of someone else. To me it is a matter of conscience. For example, I would not buy a book that said the Jews were responsible for World War II. As far as I know, there is no prerogative that you must have read Wendy Duncan's book in order to post here. Although it is wise to be well informed. The discussion here is whether or not TFI is a cult, and what is the evidence for that? You could say that I am not being objective there, but that is not necessarily the case. I am open to the idea of reading the book, but only when i am convinced there is just cause to. Thus far I have only questioned you and stood firm to see your very best arguements. The most extreme thing I've said is that you fail to recognize the Christ I believe in. I am not intending to be inflammatory to anyone. I am not name calling.

What will it take for us to persuade you to read the book, Nathan? Under what conditions or circumstances would you believe there to be "just cause" to do so? Please, I am here to help you, not hurt you.

Well Zeuszor...from all your posts, I'm assuming that Counselor and the other ex-members never told you EVERYTHING and informed you of what was missing in the book. Ask them. What will it take for me to persuade you to realize the book is missing information?

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counselor47

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Let me ask them. Some of them were here for years, some for months, some just visited.

You can skip the ones who just visited. I was there for 20 years, remember? I don't think I am going to be impressed by anyone who just visited the place and thought it was neat. But if there are people who spent time there and were legitimately involved and who do not think it is a cult, I would love to speak to them. I probably already know them, anyway.

Hmm...I've been here for almost as long as you. BUT I've been here for the last seven years...You haven't. You also have NO idea what has happened nor what people are like in these last seven years. So...I won't give you names of people that may have been here for the last 3 years? 4 years? What?

Tell you what...I know people that were here and worked for the Magazine for 5 months before leaving...Will you take them?

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cherenuff1

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zeuszor

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NathanA
This forum is really heating up. I said it earlier and I will say it again. My reasons for not yet reading the book, are not because i'm afraid that i'll be wrong, or that i don't want to for that matter. I have not read the book because I have not been sure it is beneficial. Anyone can write a book that is an indictment of someone else. To me it is a matter of conscience. For example, I would not buy a book that said the Jews were responsible for World War II. As far as I know, there is no prerogative that you must have read Wendy Duncan's book in order to post here. Although it is wise to be well informed. The discussion here is whether or not TFI is a cult, and what is the evidence for that? You could say that I am not being objective there, but that is not necessarily the case. I am open to the idea of reading the book, but only when i am convinced there is just cause to. Thus far I have only questioned you and stood firm to see your very best arguements. The most extreme thing I've said is that you fail to recognize the Christ I believe in. I am not intending to be inflammatory to anyone. I am not name calling.

What will it take for us to persuade you to read the book, Nathan? Under what conditions or circumstances would you believe there to be "just cause" to do so? Please, I am here to help you, not hurt you.

Well Zeuszor...from all your posts, I'm assuming that Counselor and the other ex-members never told you EVERYTHING and informed you of what was missing in the book. Ask them. What will it take for me to persuade you to realize the book is missing information?

Just came up with an idea. Tell you what, you and I will go through the book and I will add as much information as possible from what I recollect. The catch is...you MUST get written permission for me to tell you these other things from the people that were involved in making the book. I don't want to get sued for saying something that would embarrass them. Up to you.

No, thank you.

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zeuszor
Let's be careful with our terms here. When I say that TFI fits the criteria to be called a cult I make that judgement based on these three criteria:

[b:b31a26ee1f]1) Is there an authoritarian leader running the show with no meaningful accountability? YES

2) Are there doctrines and/or techniques in place that involve a process of systematically using coercive persuation/thought reform/"brainwashing" methods to mold the minds of the members in serving the leader and the "cause"? YES

3) Are the members, particularly the "inner circle" close to the leader, exploited financially, sexually, psychologically, etc. BY the leader? YES[/b:b31a26ee1f]


A healthy church has a democratically-elected chuch leadership with a written constitution and bylaws that the leadership is governed by and held ACCOUNTABLE to. A healthy church is a FINANCIALLY ACCOUNTABLE AND TRANSPARENT church. This holds as well for the finances of its leaders; their salaries, etc. are in the public record. A healthy church has EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS at the topmost levels for its leadership. TFI is missing all of these.

hahaha Now I sound like I'M reading off of a script! Nathan, it's your call. Can you handle the truth?

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cherenuff1

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zeuszor

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Don't forget to mention to Marian that you could barely do your job because of you being 'high' on marijauna most of the time and that you were kicked out because a church took you in to help you get back on your feet yet you smoked POT on the church premises around where children were at times!.

It's true that I was smoking a lot of MJ while I was with TFI but it is not true that I was taken in with the intention of them helping me get on my feet. I was hired to be Pete's assistant and left JPUSA in Chicago to go and work with TFI. I flew into Dallas to do it and had been communicating with Pete via phone for a couple of weeks before I got to Dallas. I had just recently gotten out of the Army and had plenty of money and wanted to come and work with TFI on purpose and as a matter of fact was deliighted with the opportunity to work with them. I was not "kicked out", either. Ole squeezed me out of my job and my place to live by making a bunch of excuses as to why I had to move out of the Lair. I have explained this thoroughly elsewhere on the board. And I was actually pretty good at my job too. Does the fact that I have admitted to having a problem with smoking grass invalidate any and all other points I have to make? What does that really have to do with anything? If you think I never "got" the doctrine taught there because I smoked grass, you are wrong. Frankly, if anything, the herb made Ole's doctrine seems all the more bizarre. I'm not saying I did the right thing or that I am proud of it, because I am not. So the fact that I used to like to smoke somehow distorted my understanding and point of view and invalidates everything I have to say? Come on, that is ridiculous.

This forum is not for whether or not marijauna is right or wrong but since you brought it up. Yes...I and many state and legal agencies believe that smoking can impair understanding and if you were smoking most of the time at Trinity, I would have to invalidate some of your perceptions while you were there.

[i:b31a26ee1f]Excerpt from: [www.realmentalhealth.com]
Marijuana has specific effects that may decrease one's ability to perform tasks requiring a great deal of coordination (such as driving a car). Visual tracking is impaired and the sense of time is typically prolonged.
[b:b31a26ee1f]Learning may be greatly affected because the drug diminishes one's ability to concentrate and pay attention[/b:b31a26ee1f]. Studies have shown that learning may become "state-dependent" meaning that information acquired or learned while under the influence of marijuana is best recalled in the same state of drug influence. [/i:b31a26ee1f]

[i:b31a26ee1f]Excerpt from: [www.marijuana-addiction.net]
Marijuana side effects also wreak havoc on the brain when the drug is used habitually. The natural chemical balance of the brain is disrupted affecting the pleasure centers and regulatory systems. [b:b31a26ee1f]The ability to learn, remember and adapt quickly to changes is impaired by marijuana use[/b:b31a26ee1f]. Depression often occurs with marijuana usage, which feeds into the cycle of more drug use to treat the pain created by drug use. This cycle of addiction is very powerful and users soon find that they cannot stop using the drug even if they want to.[/i:b31a26ee1f]

Again, this forum is not about your use of the drug. I don’t care. I just want to point out that your credibility and experiences are in question. From personal experience, I absolutely know that when someone is under the influence that their perceptions are far different than reality.

Ole teaches spiritually poisonous doctrine whether I am smoking herb ir not. Ole has abused and degraded scores of people who have sat under his teaching for any period of time whether I was smoking or not. The facts are the facts. My personal life has nothing to do with it. Ole and TFI fit the criteria.