So what's your interest in Trinity, Seeking? It seems like you had your position set when you first started posting.

God of Meat, why did Trinity make you an atheist? Your belief in God was contingent on Trinity?

One other thing I would like to clarify about Doug saying he saw Ole threaten to crush a man's larnyx. I said, "Truth is, I suspect it." I just want to say that I'm not sure about it. I'm not comfortable saying "I suspect it." I just don't know.

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NathanA
So what's your interest in Trinity, Seeking? It seems like you had your position set when you first started posting.

In that you judge another you are guilty of the same thing, Nathan.

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NathanA
One other thing I would like to clarify about Doug saying he saw Ole threaten to crush a man's larnyx. I said, "Truth is, I suspect it." I just want to say that I'm not sure about it. I'm not comfortable saying "I suspect it." I just don't know.

I did not personally witness the incident when Ole grabbed the man's throat, but enough people told me about it that I have no doubt that it happened. I have personally seen Ole threaten people with violence several times, including once when he wanted to take me out in the front yard and fight. The threat of physical violence was a constant at Trinity Foundation, sometimes implied and sometimes stated overtly. It was an integral part of Ole's "Alpha male" style of leadership.

Doug, I have before now heard nor known nothing about any[i:22684319ee] physical [/i:22684319ee] abuse that may have taken place within TFI, and I find it suprising but not shocking. My opinion of TFI gets lower and lower [i:22684319ee]every day.[/i:22684319ee]

Actually, now that I look back I remember that Ole would often say things like, "The next time you do that I'm gonna smack you" or "I just want to throw something at you!" in a jesting manner; he'd "joke around" with threats of physical violence to resolve conflict, and with a smile on his face. I remember thinking that that habit of his was odd, but blew it off as an eccentricity. Who's really trying to be the "Biblical guru and tough guy"?
:P

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counselor47

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NathanA
So what's your interest in Trinity, Seeking? It seems like you had your position set when you first started posting.

In that you judge another you are guilty of the same thing, Nathan.

Good point, counselor47.
Nathan, I mean you no harm. Do not take any of this personally as I have never attacked your character, nor questioned your walk with God. All I have asked from you was to accept a free book, read it, consider the rest of the evidence supporting the fact that TFI fits all of the criteria of a "destructive cult" and that Ole Anthony meets the criteria to be called a "cult leader" and then come back and we can talk about it. I must express that I am frustrated by your refusal to see the evidence, yet that stubbornness, that wall of denial that I infer from reading your posts. It frustrates and annoys me that you are blind because you [i:bdd294e185]refuse[/i:bdd294e185] to see. In this instance, that is. You refuse to see the evidence and yet really seem to believe that your judgement is sound about this. I am here to help you Nathan, not to hurt you. Do not take my criticism of your position on this as an attack on you. I am not persecuting you. I am trying to make you understand something.
We are dealing with spiritual pollution here that will contaminate, deform, and ultimately choke the life from your soul if you don't get away from it, Nathan. The Block is full of seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. TFI doctrine and culture is, like, the exact opposite of what a true disciple can expect in helping to build the Kingdom. Oleism's fruit brings anger, cynicism, and death, and following Jesus means faith, hope love, and joy! It's on you now, Nathan. Your pride will not allow you to admit that perhaps you've been duped, right? I wanted to believe in TFI too and actually left that filthy place in part because of this message board. I lived there. I have worked with these people. Doug too, and for far longer than I. You have never met anybody there in person. That fact alone ought to tell you something.

Let's be careful with our terms here. When I say that TFI fits the criteria to be called a cult I make that judgement based on these three criteria:

[b:077469a8a8]1) Is there an authoritarian leader running the show with no meaningful accountability? YES

2) Are there doctrines and/or techniques in place that involve a process of systematically using coercive persuation/thought reform/"brainwashing" methods to mold the minds of the members in serving the leader and the "cause"? YES

3) Are the members, particularly the "inner circle" close to the leader, exploited financially, sexually, psychologically, etc. BY the leader? YES[/b:077469a8a8]


A healthy church has a democratically-elected chuch leadership with a written constitution and bylaws that the leadership is governed by and held ACCOUNTABLE to. A healthy church is a FINANCIALLY ACCOUNTABLE AND TRANSPARENT church. This holds as well for the finances of its leaders; their salaries, etc. are in the public record. A healthy church has EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS at the topmost levels for its leadership. TFI is missing all of these.

hahaha Now I sound like I'M reading off of a script! Nathan, it's your call. Can you handle the truth?

NathanA.

In your talks to Gary to whom does he say Ole is accountable? Do you consider Gary and John Ole's peers? I think you are sincere but I wish you would ask Gary some of the hard questions that you have heard here. Better yet ask Gary to come here and answer questions as you have bravely done and tell us all what he believes to be the truth about Ole's group. I think if he did it would help you to sort things out and I would have more respect for him. I am afraid though that he will only talk to the disgruntled on his terms which means on the block and with back up. Keep being honest NathanA and you will find the truth.

cultaware

My position [i:1940a4a498]was[/i:1940a4a498] set when I started posting, and I don't think I've hid that fact. The same is obviously true of you Doug. I think the real problem comes in if we aren't willing for our position to change. Seeking came into the discussion here as if innocently neutral, but began to agree with you pretty soon. It does not seem Seeking has really put you to the test.

Thanks cultaware for your words. I actually have not asked Gary about how sufficient the accountability structure is. Good questions though. All I know is they say there is a basic 7 man board of elders, and that they have put down a few of Ole's ideas before.(ie. bringing homeless people to a large church and calling in a few news cameras) True, Ole is the leader, but the structure is not authoritarian. If it was, he wouldn't allow people to question him, nor would there be possibility that he could be voted out. Ole doesn't do what Benny Hinn does, and fire anybody who disagrees, nor only surround himself with people who agree. I know, you might say his control is psychological only, but the fact that he could be voted out nullifies that in my view. I will challenge Gary on this point though.