Thank you, Ian, for your support and kind words. You have shown much humility in this, what you have written.

Until I began reading and trying to understand Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I too was an atheist. Prabhupada, through his writings, shook my atheism and made a theist out of me. That is the "mystical force" which drove me to Krishna Consciousness. That is a true story, and is my honest experience.

Prabhupada is my spiritual grandfather, and I love him as such. He was an extraordinary human being, but he was still very much a human being.

Hare Krishna. Peace be with you, friend.

[www.youtube.com]

Well, I ain't always right, but I've never been wrong
Seldom turns out the way it does in a song
Once in a while, you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 10:11AM by The Whirlwind.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As an aside, most devotees I know are nice folks
> and genuinely sincere and as far as cults go, I
> think it's become more mainstream like Morman's to
> the effect that many practice it outside the
> temple/ashram structure which is often where a lot
> of the cult aspects are more prone to happen.
>
> However, I do think that the way some kids are
> raised in it makes it hard for them to ever feel
> comfortable about learning other traditions or
> philosophical systems or just feeling ok not
> following it at all. If anything there is a push
> for them to get diksha and travel with a guru etc
> etc. While gurukulas have fallen out of vogue
> there is still an element of having the youth join
> up with some touring preaching groups etc and I
> hate to say it, but that is exactly where things
> turn cultish. In my personal opinion.

Ian, I agree with everything you have written here. You are not wrong.

IanKoviak Wrote:
>
> Your above quotes about Bhaktivedanta saying that
> you can chant this or that name of god from
> assorted traditions to equal effect is called
> pandering. He didn't believe that nor do his
> scriptures.

That's not true. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.6, and Bhagavad-gita 18:66 (to name just two examples), for example, bear this out. There are numerous quotes from the previous acaryas which bear it out, too. For example:

"He preaches that human thought should never be allowed to be shackled with sectarian views....The religion preached by Mahaprabhu is universal and not exclusive. The most learned and the most ignorant are both entitled to embrace it...The principle of kirtana invites, as the future church of the world, all classes of men without distinction of caste or clan to the highest cultivation of the spirit.""

--Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur

"There is nothing very extraordinary, rationally speaking, in chanting the Name of Krishna in the company of bona fide devotees. It is the simplest conceivable form of worship in which a number of persons can actually and fully join. It is possible to induce other people to join in the function by substituting the names Allah and Jesus in place of Krishna. But even so there are not a few persons who, although they put up with much in their own religion that is regarded as conventional, will refuse to repeat a new name in company as being nothing short of a silly performance instead of being the highest religion."

--Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada

"Thus when we chant the holy name of God, like the name Krsna, Krsna is personally present. One need not chant the name Krsna; one may chant any name that he knows is God's. God has many names, which may be chanted with the same effect in different languages and in different countries."

--A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami PRabhupada


Guru, shastra, sadhu, IanKoviac. :-)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 09:31PM by The Whirlwind.

Hi whirlwind,

I appreciate that you have verve in your beliefs, but I hope that you understand that they are genuinely wasted on me. I unequivocally do not hold the god Krishna to be a real person. As much as the quotes above reveal a genuineness of desire on the part of these teachers to portray a universal religion, it's not something that I believe in. I don't believe in the authority of the Veda. I don't believe that Krishna is a real person or God or whatever. I definitely don't believe that chanting or singing any number of words associated with a god has any special power.

And again, while the above quotes reveal a desire to create a universal religion out of the Krishna conception, they are naive and idealistic in there intent and scope. It is not rational to believe in a global unity of interfaith people beyond what it already is. All those people who believe in God, already believe in jesus, or Allah or any number of lesser known gods. Those people, of those religions, already chance, sing or study and in some way repeat the names of the gods in their religions. So, in stating that there is no need for a reformer and that there is no need for anyone to change the name of the god they already worship when they sing enchant, seems like a self defeating point. Basically, what is the point that they are trying to make in saying things like this? Technically, this is already happening. Obviously for people like myself who don't have the ability nor desire to make mental leaps about the existence of God and any number of other metaphysical realities described in the so-called authority of the scriptures, these are moot points.

So again, I still believe that they are ultimately trying to promote their particular religion by amalgamation and word jugglery. They are also suggesting and promoting a very specific Bengali sects approach to worshiping God by the method of loudly chanting in public. There are many other methods by which people contemplate and worship a divinity. Some meditate silently, some chant on beads, some singing dance loudly, some worship statues, some read scriptures and so on. These things are already going on in different religions. For those that take those religion seriously they are doing these activities more often. For those that are less religiously inclined, they do it once in awhile. Ultimately they are doing something that makes them feel good and gives them a sense of purpose and meaning. And then there are those who simply do not believe in any religious ideas but consider themselves spiritual. And then there are those who simply do not believe in anything beyond nature and the material world. This has been going on for billions of years and I see little reason that one should feel the need to preach about it all. Has stated about, it's already happening and there's no way to change it. So ultimately, they're intent in discussing it in such depth and promoting it in books and constantly preaching about it is because of the ultimate agenda of wanting to convince people that their God Krishna and the names of Krishna and the scriptures that discuss Krishna are of the highest sort. Otherwise what would be the reason to say all of it? And obviously, their own life example shows that they certainly didn't go around singing the names of Jesus and Allah loudly in the streets or worshiping such personalities in their many temples or instructing their disciples that they should throw in the names of Jesus and Allah and other gods into their kirtans for good measure.

Anyway, I don't want you to waste your time on me brother or sister. You were entitled to your views and I to mine and ultimately this forum is not about whether the process these teachers describe works or doesn't work, it's how the people who use it have been abused or not benefitted in the way they hoped.

Whirlwind, I think I understand your concerns and no, even.if you could tell all and remain safe, I'd not think you crazy.

I've been through some bad shit myself. People would think me crazy.

The worst abuses happen when a group has successfully established a pious, respectable reputation in society while concealing its contempt for outsiders while exploiting tax exemption to accumulate money, property and prestige -- and meddle in local politics..

IanKoviak Wrote:
>
> Your above quotes about Bhaktivedanta saying that
> you can chant this or that name of god from
> assorted traditions to equal effect is called
> pandering. He didn't believe that nor do his
> scriptures.

Ian, you are entitled to your views and I respect your position. However, you misrepresented Prabhupada, as well as the philosophy he taught (as well as the Scriptures he taught them from), and I will not abide that. Either you did so deliberately, or you just do not know what you're talking about, but either way I will not stand for it. With all respect. Nothing personal.

IanKoviak Wrote:

>...ultimately this forum is not
> about whether the process these teachers describe
> works or doesn't work, it's how the people who use
> it have been abused or not benefitted in the way
> they hoped.

It's called the "Cult Education Forum", not the "Ex-members support group forum".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 10:28PM by The Whirlwind.

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whirlwind, I think I understand your concerns and
> no, even.if you could tell all and remain safe,
> I'd not think you crazy.
>
> I've been through some bad shit myself. People
> would think me crazy.
>
> The worst abuses happen when a group has
> successfully established a pious, respectable
> reputation in society while concealing its
> contempt for outsiders while exploiting tax
> exemption to accumulate money, property and
> prestige -- and meddle in local politics..

Thank you, corboy. Someday I will publicly write of what happened, and will tell the whole story. Right now, though, I just cannot. But it weighs on me, burdens me, bothers my conscience. I hate having to keep secrets for bad people. That's what cults are made of. But someday I will unburden myself, and here.

Here's another couple of quotes:

"Just like the Muslims call Him Allah, the Jews call Him Jehovah, or somebody calls Him something else. That doesn't matter. If you think that 'Why should I chant the Indian name Krishna, Sanskrit name Krishna?' So, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says that there are millions and billions of names of God. If you think that this Krishna name is not very suitable, you can accept any name. That doesn't matter. Our proposition is you chant God's name. That is our proposal. Therefore, it is universal. If you like, you can chant Jehovah or you can chant Allah, but we request you that you chant God's name. Is it very difficult? It is not at all difficult.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said that there are innumerable names of God according to different languages, different countries, different societies. And each and every one of them has the potency of God Himself. If there is a God, He must be Absolute. Therefore, there is no difference between His name and He Himself. Just like in the material world, in the world of duality, there is a difference between the name 'water' and the substance water. The name 'water' is different from the substance water. If you are thirsty and you simply chant, 'Water, water, water, water,' your thirst will, not be quenched. You require the substance water. That is material, but spiritually, the name Krishna or the name Allah or the name Jehovah is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead." --Srila Prabhupada

"If one is learned pandita, he does not see Hindu, Muslim, Christian. I went to America, I did not go there to turn the Christian to become Hindu. No, I never said that. Did I say, any, anyone, that 'You are Christian. You become a Hindu'? No, never I said. That is not my business." --Srila Prabhupada

If you boiled down, distilled Prabhupada's teachings to just two points, corboy, the sum of it all is this: a) chant God's Name, according to your tradition (Allah, Jesus, Christ, Yawweh, Jehovah, or what have you) and b) stop eating meat. That's really about it. This is "Krishna Consciousness".

Again: I am presenting this by way of explanation, but NOT by way of preaching anything to anybody. My only agenda is to clear up misinformation, distortion, or outright fabrication in terms of what Prabhupada actually taught.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 02:35AM by The Whirlwind.

The Whirlwind Wrote:
>
> If you boiled down, distilled Prabhupada's
> teachings to just two points, corboy, the sum of
> it all is this: a) chant God's Name, according to
> your tradition (Allah, Jesus, Christ, Yawweh,
> Jehovah, or what have you) and b) stop eating
> meat. That's really about it. This is "Krishna
> Consciousness".

> Again: I am presenting this by way of explanation,
> but NOT by way of preaching anything to anybody.
> My only agenda is to clear up misinformation,
> distortion, or outright fabrication in terms of
> what Prabhupada actually taught.

Addendum: a third point, lest we forget: c) you are not your body. We cannot forget that one. That's very important.

The main idea is that "Krishna" is A Name of God, but not THE Name of God. Of course, we hold "Krishna" to be the highest and most intimate Name of God, but it's not the only one. Any of them can be chanted "with the same effect in different languages and in different countries," as Prabhupada taught.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 05:52AM by The Whirlwind.