Yadda yadda yadda. Facet does not know what facet is talking about.

This is called the "Cult Education Forum", not the "Ex-members support group forum", nor the "Make groups you do not like look bad forum", nor the "Preachy atheists who believe that anybody who believes in God is in a cult forum".

IanKoviak Wrote:

> Anyway, you're in the wrong place if your defense
> for this cult is copy and pasting prabhupada
> quotes. I can paste some of those too and they
> ain't pretty.

Me too. [prabhupadasaid.com] is my favorite anti-Prabhupada site. :-)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 12:03AM by The Whirlwind.

[prabhupadasaid.com]

Prabhupada was not omniscient with respect to the material world and all that goes on in it, and he never claimed to be.

Just because he had some opinion about this, that, or the other matter pertaining to the material world and what goes on in it, this does not mean that I have to conform my opinion to his. This does not mean that I have to conform all of my opinions about any given topic, to those of Prabhupada.

The Whirlwind Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [prabhupadasaid.com]
>
> Prabhupada was not omniscient with respect
> to the material world and all that goes on in it,
> and he never claimed to be.
>
> Just because he had some opinion about this, that,
> or the other matter pertaining to the material
> world and what goes on in it, this does not mean
> that I have to conform my opinion to his. This
> does not mean that I have to conform all of my
> opinions about any given topic, to those of
> Prabhupada.


Prabhupada was born in Bengal in 1896, in Victorian-era India. He was educated by Westerners, Europeans (Scots to be exact). He came from a very different place, in a very different culture and time than what we see in the 21st-century American/Western world. Of course he had ideas and opinions that might seem shocking, offensive even to people who live in today's world. The world he was born into, and was raised in was so different from today's, that he may as well have come from another planet.

My point is that I do not think it fair to judge him negatively, according to present-day Western/American standards. That's called "presentism", and it's a logical fallacy.

[qcpages.qc.cuny.edu]

IanKoviak Wrote:

> Anyway, you're in the wrong place if your defense
> for this cult is copy and pasting prabhupada
> quotes. I can paste some of those too and they
> ain't pretty.

...and speaking of logical fallacies, IanKoviac, you just committed the "Straw Man" fallacy. I never defended "the cult" and in fact I made it very clear that I do not for a moment do so. I defend the Krishna Conscious philosophy, this thing called "Krishna Consciousness". It's NOT the same thing.

After all, that is the topic of this thread, and I am explaining why I hold to this philosophy. Nice try at misrepresenting my position, my good man, but you'll have to try harder than that.

[owl.excelsior.edu]

Anybody who says that I am here to act as a troll can kiss my ass, corboy. I do not defend these people or their abuses for a moment.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 02:55AM by The Whirlwind.

Here's a question for you, IanKoviak: say you knew somebody who was sexually abused as a child by a Catholic priest, but this person still considered himself to be a Catholic. Would you tell him that if he were to defend the basic tenets of the Catholic faith, that he was in fact defending abuse and abusers? Would you encourage this person to stop believing on Jesus, and/or stop reading his Bible, stop going to confession and mass, to stop taking Communion, etc.?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 03:04AM by The Whirlwind.

IanKoviak, corboy: I got screwed around so badly by some of these ISKCON cultists that if I told you what happened, then you probably would not believe me. It's THAT crazy. Someday, when my circumstances are different, I will write about it publicly but for now I cannot, since I would fear for my safety if I were to do so. It's not cowardice on my part, it's just smart of me. I know things that could get me hurt, or worse. Trust me on that, please. These people are like gangsters in dhotis, some of them.

Yet, I still chant and I do not plan on going back to eating meat. I do not hate Prabhupada, either. It's like I had a bad experience in an abusive church, but I still consider myself a Christian. To me, it's the same thing. There's lots of devotees like me, too, devotees who got burned by ISKCON but still do not think Krishna Consciousness to be a bad thing. What's more, I consider this (participating on this forum) to be part of my devotional service. I HATE What they did to Prabhupada's mission.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 03:46AM by The Whirlwind.

The stuff I know that could get me hurt or worse is not illegal (and it's not a mandated reporting matter, either) so it's not THAT terribly bad. But it's grossly unethical in nature, would damage the reputation of a certain prominent ISKCON guru if made public knowledge, and would embarrass the hell out of certain people. Internally, it's not a secret at all and I've told certain persons inside of ISKCON what I know (but only a handful). Temple management has done their best to squash the matter, and to squash me too, but I have persevered and held firm. I never backed down, and I am still standing. If I wrote the specifics of what I know here, then I'd instantly be identified and some of these people know where I live. Then there'd be real trouble for me. I am taking a risk, in writing anything at all but I am being very careful to not reveal too much.

The bottom line is that I do not want to wind up like Sulochana wound up. That is, dead by the hand of some deranged fanatic. And like I said, it's not as bad as a "Jonestown in Moundville" scenario, and it's not even illegal, but if I revealed it then it'd be damaging and embarrassing, and I have to be careful. If I wound up hurt or worse, then some of the people who I've told would make the information public knowledge and bad PR is the last thing the management in Dallas wants. I've told certain people that if I end up dead, then they should tell of it when I am gone. So it would not disappear, if I were to disappear.

Sulochana hated what they did to Prabhupada's mission, and I do too. I DO NOT defend these fuckers, who hijacked it. But I do defend Krishna Consciousness. It's NOT the same thing.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2021 08:30AM by The Whirlwind.

Whirlwind,

I would actually encourage them to "start" from scratch. Yes. There is a lot of insight gained from shedding and abandoning one's religious past. God won't be disappointed and it's an authentic way to shed some of the trauma as a lot can get bound up in the details of the belief system that we tend to never confront and only address from the angle of the religious dogma.

On that note, if the path/faith/beliefs are something you find comfort and happiness in, who am I to discourage that.

You seem to have a more rational approach to Prabhupada as a person, his history, ideas, teachings and so on. I think it's good to approach with a grain of salt, a good dash of skeptism. It's what makes something authentic to us. If we just accept at face value something then it's bound to not fit eventually or be shoehorned (cognitive dissonance).

But yes, I am an atheist and I think it's unfair of me to say that everyone who believes in the krishna religion is in a cult. Honestly cult for me is a word that is easy to misuse and I am guilty of that. What Bhaktivedanta started evolved into a cult. No Question. Many subsequent groups that sprung forth as well as guadiya math do have cultish aspects and dynamics regarding personality worship and practices that in my opinion disengage are ability to question and think for ourselves.

I just want folks coming here to know that if something is not working for them they can change it. They don't have to fear some awful thing will happen or they will lose all their good fortune or whatever. There are also other paths, other teachers, other approaches and they all have some merit.

Anyway, I cannot devote much time to this thread, but if I have offended you I am sorry. Be well and good luck.

As an aside, most devotees I know are nice folks and genuinely sincere and as far as cults go, I think it's become more mainstream like Morman's to the effect that many practice it outside the temple/ashram structure which is often where a lot of the cult aspects are more prone to happen.

However, I do think that the way some kids are raised in it makes it hard for them to ever feel comfortable about learning other traditions or philosophical systems or just feeling ok not following it at all. If anything there is a push for them to get diksha and travel with a guru etc etc. While gurukulas have fallen out of vogue there is still an element of having the youth join up with some touring preaching groups etc and I hate to say it, but that is exactly where things turn cultish. In my personal opinion.