The Whirlwind Wrote:
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> PS: Prabhupada never said that one has to take an
> ISKCON guru, a Science of Identity guru, or even a
> Vaisnava guru, corboy. Prabhupada said that one
> must take a LIVING guru, who comes in a bona fide
> line of disciplic succession. The only two
> criteria are that guru must a) be living and b) be
> from a bona fide lineage. Guru does not
> necessarily even need to be a Hare Krsna (or a
> Vaisnava) of any flavor! That sounds pretty
> non-sectarian to me. Study the books as I have;
> you'll see that I am right. :-)

"As for acceptance of the spiritual master, that is essential, because without the instruction of a bona fide spiritual master, one cannot progress in the spiritual science. One should approach the spiritual master with all humility and offer him all services so that he will be pleased to bestow his blessings upon the disciple. Because a bona fide spiritual master is a representative of Krsna, if he bestows any blessings upon his disciple, that will make the disciple immediately advanced without the disciple's following the regulated principles. Or, the regulated principles will be easier for one who has served the spiritual master without reservation."

-A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuada



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2021 06:14AM by The Whirlwind.

The Whirlwind Wrote:
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> "Christian religion teaches
> God-consciousness. Jesus Christ preached
> God-consciousness. He represented himself as a son
> of God. So we agree to this principle. There is no
> controversy. Yes. Anyone who teaches
> God-consciousness, we agree with the principle.
> Muhammad also, he preached God-consciousness. So
> we welcome. There may be some difference in the
> process. That does not matter. But we test a
> religion by the result, how people are becoming
> God-conscious. That's all. According to Srimad
> Bhagavatam, it is said, sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
> yato bhaktir adhoksaje, ahaituky apratihata
> yayatma suprasidati. It is said: 'That is
> first-class religious principle which teaches
> devotion to the Supreme Lord without any motive or
> without being hampered by any material condition.'
> God-consciousness is not such a thing that if a
> man is materially poor he cannot advance. Everyone
> can advance. Nothing material can check
> God-consciousness. And any religion which teaches
> this principle, that is first-class."
>
> -A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuada

:-)


[www.youtube.com]

The Whirlwind Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PS: Prabhupada never said that one has to take an
> ISKCON guru, a Science of Identity guru, or even a
> Vaisnava guru, corboy. Prabhupada said that one
> must take a LIVING guru, who comes in a bona fide
> line of disciplic succession. The only two
> criteria are that guru must a) be living and b) be
> from a bona fide lineage. Guru does not
> necessarily even need to be a Hare Krsna (or a
> Vaisnava) of any flavor! That sounds pretty
> non-sectarian to me. Study the books as I have;
> you'll see that I am right. :-)

"Acharya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acharya. Perfection is how he is preaching bhakti cult. That's all."

[srilaprabhupadalila.org]

You are right The Whirlwind, victims know best and I do not know anything what you personally endured.

You yourself know nothing of what Truth Wins or any other has endured either.

Everyone’s experiences matter, and those those responsible for the abuse - including those who do not act when made aware, are responsible and will always remain so in my view.

We defend what we love, but to believe that attempts by people to manipulate that for deceptive means is a foolish folly.

Even loving an abuser, they are walked away from and discredited all the same. To defend abuse is abuse. Fact.

Back on topic.

An example shared, regularly happens in a town where there is an active grouping. Just before covid.

Shopping malls are open and people are enjoying social times with friends, meeting, chatting, buying, laughing, getting sweets and shakes, it’s all fun. Money is spent.

A group of young people enter their favourite trendy fashion outlet which has some clothing laid out on table like displays at the entrance. Looking at some jeans, one of the young people noticed a book that has been placed there previously by a devotee.. it is the science of realisation.

The book is picked up by that person because they felt that it was some divine intervention, a mystical force, the book is meant for them in that place at that time.. they are the person who is magically thinking enough to see the books placement in that way and end up taking it home.

In most cases, they do not get past the first few pages and put it to side as cool props due to the artwork.. perhaps try to sell it on eBay.

It is likely that many shoppers that day saw the book and had very different thoughts about its placement there.. “weird” is only one of them, I’ll keep a lid on the others so not to touch any more nerves, however the real basis of why that book is there now follows.

The book has been intentionally placed there by an adherent. It is no mystical force.

Why?

Adherents believe that materialism is very bad. If you are spending money (anywhere else other than on krisna Consciousness) then there is something is something wrong with you, not only because you are simply different from what the adherent who placed the book there believes, but because materialism is deemed as inferior quality.

Krisna Consciousness actively comes from and teaches a standpoint of superiority over other human beings lifestyles in this way.

It is not the only way that it does this, and it is masked by righteousness throughout its teachings. Pious “clean” souls.. souls that simply do not exist to the naked eye but are believed in anyway. No science behind it, nothing, yet the “science of self realisation” claims to be just that.

What someone says is one thing, how one behaves is the actual reality.

In my own perspective, Krisna Consciousness and all of its associated groups are just one massive superiority complex.

In respect to Truth Wins I’ll leave this now where it is. Truth Wins has their own valid experience to share (if they still wish) and that should not be silenced by anyone.

Wish you best !



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2021 02:58AM by facet.

facet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> We defend what we love, but to believe that
> attempts by people to manipulate that for
> deceptive means is a foolish folly.
>
> Even loving an abuser, they are walked away from
> and discredited all the same. To defend abuse is
> abuse. Fact.

Facet: I made it clear that I do not for a moment defend these people or their abuses. I also made it clear that I defend the basic beliefs and practices of the organization (ISKCON), but not the organization itself. I have separated the organization from the doctrine quite nicely, if I may say so myself.

Here's a question for you, facet: say you knew somebody who had a bad experience in an abusive church, but this person who still considered himself to be a Christian. Would you tell him that if he were to defend the basic tenets of the Christian faith, that he was in fact defending abuse and abusers? Would you encourage this person to stop believing on Jesus, and/or stop reading his Bible?

PS: Speaking of "Science of Self-Realization" (SSR), facet, you have once again proven your ignorance of what Prabhupada actually taught. Have you ever actually read "Science of Self-Realization", facet? I doubt if you have (but, I myself have). If you had read that book, then you'd already know that Chapter Four explains and outlines the truly non-sectarian nature of Krishna Conscious philosophy. May I humbly suggest that you start by studying Chapter Four, which is named "Understanding KRSNA and Christ: KRSNA or Christ – The Name Is the Same". AND the whole book is free, online here:

[vedabase.io]

Facet: you really do not know what you are talking about with respect to Krishna Consciousness, and I am afraid you've put your foot in it again. You'll have to try harder than that, because I know what I am talking about here. Who's really the troll? :-)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2021 08:55AM by The Whirlwind.

From SSR, Chapter Four:

'Yes—in the animal kingdom. But the civilized human being, the religious human being, is not meant to kill and eat animals. If you stop killing animals and chant the holy name Christ, everything will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but only to request you to please chant the name of God. The Bible also demands this of you. So let’s kindly cooperate and chant, and if you have a prejudice against chanting the name Krishna, then chant “Christo” or “Krishna”—there is no difference. Sri Chaitanya said: namnam akari bahu-dha nija-sarva-shaktis. “God has millions and millions of names, and because there is no difference between God’s name and Himself, each one of these names has the same potency as God.” Therefore, even if you accept designations like Hindu, Christian, or Mohammedan, if you simply chant the name of God found in your own scriptures, you will attain the spiritual platform. Human life is meant for self-realization—to learn how to love God. That is the actual beauty of man. Whether you discharge this duty as a Hindu, a Christian, or a Mohammedan, it doesn’t matter—but discharge it!' --Srila Prabhupada



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2021 09:02AM by The Whirlwind.

facet Wrote: "The book has been intentionally placed there by an adherent. It is no mystical force."

The Whirlwind Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a question for you, facet: say you knew
> somebody who had a bad experience in an abusive
> church, but this person who still considered
> himself to be a Christian. Would you tell him
> that if he were to defend the basic tenets of the
> Christian faith, that he was in fact defending
> abuse and abusers? Would you encourage this
> person to stop believing on Jesus, and/or stop
> reading his Bible?

You obviously do not believe in karma, facet.

If your answer to the above question that I put to you is "yes", then you have showed yourself to be (pretty much) an anti-religious bigot, a militant atheist who sees any form of spiritual or religious belief as inherently aberrational and abusive. You have proven that you are not really here to have an open and honest discussion about Krishna Conscious philosophy, but instead are here to gripe about something that you do not like (that is, the idea of a personal God, and religious belief in general).

If your answer to the above question is "no", and you would not encourage this person to stop believing on Jesus, and/or stop reading his Bible, then I'd ask you what is it about Krishna Conscious philosophy which is especially pernicious, compared to, say, Christian theology? What makes Krishna Conscious philosophy especially evil in your sight?

Or is it that you just simply do not like Hare Krishnas (or the very idea of God) period?

After all: Gideons distribute Bibles and New Testaments free of charge to whoever requests one. Evangelical Christians leave Bible tracts in public places, same as Hare Krishnas give books away in public places. What is the difference?

Before you get all butthurt and start accusing me of personally attacking you, facet, I want to reiterate that this is not personal. I do not know you one bit, nor you me. This is an intellectual discussion pertaining to a topic about which I happen to know a thing or two.

Checkmate, facet. Again: I'd do some studying if I were you, since it's obvious (to me, at least) that you really do not know what you are talking about, in the context of a discussion about Krishna Consciousness.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2021 09:54PM by The Whirlwind.

The Whirlwind, don't you have 16 or 64 rounds to chant or something?

There is no difference between one religious fantastic and another. You choose to live in fantasy. We choose to live in reality. Bhaktivedanta and his sampradaya are a throng of dillusional nuts who produce more delusional nuts. They reject basic reason and science, make up stuff and hope to go to the cow planet goloka (literally cow-planet) when they die. They threaten if thier adherents don't believe in this they will never be truly "happy". This is a cult. That you choose to chant or read some scriptures in your own time is fine and dandy but not a thing to do with exposing the guru and his shortcomings and responsibility for creating a framework for trauma. It's not a liberal democracy. No one voted him into power. He claims to be a representative of god and if he does not, then he ought to have not sat in high seats and accepted worship. Not everyone in the cult is traumatized. This forum is for those who felt they've been cheated, wronged, abused etc. Not for those happy in thier faith. If you were traumatized it hurt or confused or disenfranchised, tell that story. How have the leaders words and the philosophy become unbelievable and crippling for you? Did you find it hard to leave? What aspects of the leaders teaching do you not agree with or cause confusion and damage to followers? Do you truly feel some old Sanskrit words are imbued with the energy of a divine power? How has that manifest practically and functionally in your life? Could you experience similar results with more rational means rooted in reality? I'd guarantee the answer is yes.

These are concerns of a forum like this. Not quoting your teachers concocted distortions. It obviously did not work out for us. We're here for support to get out not get more tangled, confused and listen to the same dribble we've heard for years about "the supreme personality if godhead" and his boar incarnations and angry celeate gurus ranting about woman being a stumbling block to god realization. Please, stop preaching to the choir boys. If you were raped or in anyway abused in this group it holds nothing for you ever. I guarantee it. The only thing keeping you in it is pure fear. I don't believe in a god that plays games with physics and bends laws or creates or alters things for his "reasons". That to me is a purely human constructs. I'd rather be a materialistic atheist than give credence to a god of love that gets thier kicks abusing kids in his most special sanctum. A god that promises protection to those who take his name with innocent sincerity and fucks them over on the sly for his cosmic eternal transcendental kicks. That Bhaktivedanta knew, and felt bad is just words. Did he call authorities? Shut down cult schools? Give immediate reparations? No, his solution is chanting.

Your above quotes about Bhaktivedanta saying that you can chant this or that name of god from assorted traditions to equal effect is called pandering. He didn't believe that nor do his scriptures. As a sect, they don't subscribe to Islam or Christianity. Heck, they don't even subscribe to the rhetoric of other sampradayas. There were plenty Gaudiya groups in siddhanta Saraswatis time that we're sincerely chanting Maha mantra that he blasted as offensive because their interpretations of scripture deferred from his.

Anyway, you're in the wrong place if your defense for this cult is copy and pasting prabhupada quotes. I can paste some of those too and they ain't pretty.