PS: Prabhupada never said that one has to take an ISKCON guru, a Science of Identity guru, or even a Vaisnava guru, corboy. Prabhupada said that one must take a LIVING guru, who comes in a bona fide line of disciplic succession. The only two criteria are that guru must a) be living and b) be from a bona fide lineage. Guru does not necessarily even need to be a Hare Krsna (or a Vaisnava) of any flavor! That sounds pretty non-sectarian to me. Study the books as I have; you'll see that I am right. :-)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2021 05:39AM by The Whirlwind.

The Whirlwind,

And so when you say that all this is "nonsecterian" and a person who wants true knowledge needs to find a living teacher in one of the 4 hindu sects of Saivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism and Smartism, you are speaking of a nonsecterian path?

It's disingenuous to say the path of "krishna consciousness" is "non secterian". If you mean to say that the Gita, as it's been evolved, can be understood as a philosophical system with universal concepts, pleasantly couched in the myth of the krishna god—then, yes, absolutely, the ideas taught in the gita can have universal, non-secterian appeal. I think the same can be said for most religions when you remove the specific god they pay allegiance to. I can't imagine god sat for 2 hours between warring armies and spoke in exacting 4 lined sanskrit verses covering such topics as offering him leaves and flowers in devotion. Talk about inappropriate timing. It's obviously a setting created to represent man's inner battles and search for truth, confronting doubt and looking for answers. It has also been shown to have been injected into the larger Mahabharata tale at a later date. The Mahabharata was a popular myth/epic and it was a good vehicle to slip in some religious ideas for the general public in an effort to create a more unified religious identity in a country built on spiritual pluralism.

I trust you don't believe that the sage Vyasa was one person who compiled the Vedas using the elephant god, Ganesh's broken tusk as a writing implement...

And yes, actually, there are many letters where Bhaktivedanta dicattes that the GBC is to function as disksha guru's within his organization's structure. And many other letters where he forbade his followers from associating with or seeking guidance from Gaudiya Math—let alone guru's outside the general vaishnava sect.

all that aside, I agree with you, people should find inspiration and spiritual guidance in the guru tattva principle, not a specific personage or lineage. The "living" part is also subjective considering many devotees hardly spent much time with Bhaktivedanta in person and most followers these days are not associating with their living guru on a daily basis anyway. So how important is the "living part"? Is it not more realistic and practical to try and absorb the teachings of a guru (shiksha?). I can see in ancient times (when people did not know how to read/write) that it would be important to have a living teacher. But now with mass publications, translations, the internet, and any number of things, we can study, read and compare and contrast the philosophy of many teachers.

Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a sect. The worship of Krishna is 100% secterian. Even within the larger context of vashnavism, the Gaudiya sect is very specific in their beliefs and their lineage is hardly considered bonafide by the other Vaishnva sects. The teachings of samkhya and yoga and other philosophical systems amalgamated in the Vaishnava theology do have nonsectarian ideas. Brahman, atman, Paramatma, jiva, Purusha, Prakriti, Shakti, Maya, Guna etc these can have universal application and in some way they are ideas explored in many world faiths.

I guess I question your motive for coming on a cult forum and trying to convince people trying to get out of these cults (sects) that there is some essoteric meaning behind it all and that they somehow missed the point of what the cults are all about. They see what it's all about and want to get the heck out. That's why they are here. Not to tredge through philosophical arguments with apologists trolling on cult forums. They are done with the guru crap, the "hare krishna is not a cult" crap and the "you must have committed some offenses" bullshit.

If you're going to troll here and make it harder for people to find the support they need by confusing them and deflecting, distracting, lying, scamming, and being all-around disingenuous in why you are here (I assume you are not trying to leave krishna "consciousness") I'm telling you you're in for a rude awakening. And namaste while I'm at it prabhu.

IanKoviak Wrote:
>
> all that aside, I agree with you, people should
> find inspiration and spiritual guidance in the
> guru tattva principle, not a specific personage or
> lineage. The "living" part is also subjective
> considering many devotees hardly spent much time
> with Bhaktivedanta in person and most followers
> these days are not associating with their living
> guru on a daily basis anyway. So how important is
> the "living part"? Is it not more realistic and
> practical to try and absorb the teachings of a
> guru (shiksha?). I can see in ancient times (when
> people did not know how to read/write) that it
> would be important to have a living teacher. But
> now with mass publications, translations, the
> internet, and any number of things, we can study,
> read and compare and contrast the philosophy of
> many teachers.

Muhammad can be understood as being the guru of the Muslims, Jesus guru of the Christians, etc. "Guru" is not limited to Vaisnavism. I certainly believe that Jesus is alive, as Christians do. This is the only point I am trying to make.

"Anyone who has preached Krishna consciousness, maybe a little differently according to time and circumstances, but anyone who has tried to preach God-consciousness, he is guru (spiritual master). This is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's version. Anyone who preaches about the Supreme Lord, he is guru. Maybe in a different way, according to time and circumstances. Muhammad also said Allah Akbar." --Srila Prabhupada



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2021 08:39AM by The Whirlwind.

Corboy: In my estimation (and to put it in some of the simplest terms possible): "Krishna Consciousness" is a form of Unitarian Universalism, which originated (in historical and secular terms) in medieval India. That's the most basic way I could explain sanatana-dharma philosophy to others, in a nutshell.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2021 10:29AM by The Whirlwind.

Whirlwind, you keep saying ACB said this and that. I am not eve sure my post counts for anything at this point. I am explaining how this path entered my life.
Maybe you should read it again. I was not looking for a guru. Just big answers to big questions. Do you think that every single person who gets attracted to the path has read all of ABC books? That they enter the path of Bhakti yoga totally warned and ceasoned. That gurus are rated on some websites. lol!
And they pick a guru the same way you will buy a house. Shop around, visit different houses....
I am not sure how many people jump on a plane to go guru shopping in India. And gurus in disciplic succession are not people you find in the yellow pages.
As I explained it, I was brought to that specific group in a very divine way. It was so full of mystical synchronicities that I could not question my choices.
This is the whole subject of my post. How the unseen forces pushed me into this.
There are many more even far out things I left out.
I question humans but back then I did not question what I considered divine guidance. Now I do question EVERYTHING. Even the most supernatural events.
We are totally deviating from the original subject of my post.
I explain in detail that this whole path as well as the guru... entered my life in very mystical ways. And we just keep talking about the practical aspects.
While my journey is about things noone can truly explain. Now we can write another 50 pages about what ABC said and the philosophy.
My point is that some people are just thrown into it by having all those mystical events on the side. It confirms to them they are on the right path...
You understand that I would not question what I considered to be God personally directing me.
As I said it, I would keep even more crazy stories private. But my experiences were too out of the ordinary.
Unfortunately we got totally off subject.

The name of this thread is "The mystical forces that drove some of us to Krishna Consciousness", not "The mystical forces that drove ME to Krishna Consciousness". I am explaining the mystical forces that drove ME to Krishna Consciousness, since I am one of "us". What is the problem, Truth Wins?

The first time I heard the maha-mantra being chanted, I was an atheist and was not looking to be preached to. The first time I went to a Hare Krsna temple, I did not even believe in God. Somebody gave me some prasadam and a copy of Bhagavad-gita and told me to take it home and read it, but to come back to the temple if I had any questions about what I was reading. I've been coming back and asking questions for thirty years now, and I think that your story and mine are not so dissimilar, Truth Wins. We have more in common than you may suppose. Why are you so antagonistic toward me?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2021 09:45PM by The Whirlwind.

Truth Wins: I've been lurking on these forums for some time now, and I read a lot about what others have to say about Krishna Consciousness and those who preach it. Sometimes, some of the things that others have to say about "the Hare Krishnas" are just not factual and/or is based on outdated information coming from people who left the Hare Krishnas a long time ago.

For example: the idea that Hare Krishnas do not believe that people really landed on the moon (a myth). I believe that the moon landings were genuine, and my guru does too. Yes, Prabhupada doubted that they were real. However, this does not mean that I am required to do the same.

Just like any other group, Hare Krishnas are not monolithic in nature, and not everybody believes the exact same thing, the exact same way.

For another example: the people who you see on the street chanting are trying to "recruit" you. Recruit you to what? There's no ashram to move into, and those temples who do have ashrams don't just let anybody move in! This is not 1971!

A third example (this one is my favorite): Hare Krishnas do not use toilet paper. That's silly. I don't know a single devotee who does not use toilet paper. That's a straight-up myth.

So I read a lot of inaccurate (and sometimes even asinine) stuff about Hare Krishnas, and usually I just sit back and don't correct it. But when this thread came along, I decided to jump in, in order to describe the mystical forces that drove me to Krishna Consciousness.

"Krishna Consciousness" is not limited to any organization, institution, or tradition of human origin. Neither is guru. No one organization or institution has a monopoly on "Krishna Consciousness" and as a matter of fact no set of bona fide Scriptures does either. In a sense, one could preach "Krishna Consciousness" (as in, the principles of service performed in loving devotion to the all-attractive Personality of Godhead) from the Bible, the Qur'an, the Torah, or what have you without ever even saying the word "Krishna".

My apologies Truth Wins.

I understand that faith is dear in the various ways that we each as individuals experience(d) it, and would like to say that any of my posts here are regarding the manipulation, the control, the misuses <—— misuses of that faith by deceptive persons.

Not much in life is without somebody somewhere being deceptive or misusing something, it is just one of those things. So deceptive in many ways I feel it pays to say it how it is. So I do. It’s been said by me before, and I’ll say it again:

Faith, god, the all knowing, source, or whichever way any of us recognise a higher power (if we so choose) is not the problem, it is the misuse of it where people become seriously hurt - hence the existence of this forum.

I hope that you can accept my apology Truth Wins. I am no stranger to putting my foot in it.

The Whirlwind, I also respect that your faith is something very dear to your heart, as you demonstrate. It is love. Perhaps not a benefit on this forum as it is discussing the other side of things so to speak and I appreciate that some of the things that you see written up here may touch a nerve.

I recall in the past writing into a magazine about a favourite musician who had received a bad review from that magazine.. they heard from me fast, and I told them every reason why their review was a disgusting lie and that the magazine was now worthless to me.

That sort of thing (love) is a different story. I appreciate the difficulty in reading alternate viewpoints here, cult forum tho - it is what it is for.

There is no drop down menu when it comes to love, it is not a selection that we make it just happens !

edit: no, I will not be shutting up about drop down menu’s any time soon. They are good.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2021 05:08AM by facet.

facet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Whirlwind, I also respect that your faith is
> something very dear to your heart, as you
> demonstrate. It is love. Perhaps not a benefit on
> this forum as it is discussing the other side of
> things so to speak and I appreciate that some of
> the things that you see written up here may touch
> a nerve.

To repeat: I would defend the basic beliefs and practices of the institution, but not the institution itself (in my case, ISKCON). As well, I would defend Prabhupada. I chant (not sixteen a day, but I do chant) and I don't eat meat, but I am not an ISKCON fanatic and I have been burned and abused in ISKCON too. You just do not know the half of it, not even an iota. This is because I've never written of it (what happened to me, I mean).

This is called the "Cult Education Forum", not the "Ex-members Support Group Forum" and so I am here to educate others about the philosophy of ISKCON and its related offshoots. I've read a lot of inaccurate and distorted stuff over time, and just wanted to clear a few things up. If I've hurt anybody in the process, then I regret that. I never meant to do so, and I never meant to "attack" anybody, personally or otherwise. It's not personal, since I know none of you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2021 06:08AM by The Whirlwind.

No hard feelings I hope, Truth Wins?