Here's an outline of how I think spirituality will become more scientific.

Where we're at now:

- brain scan technology has helped to discover a correlation between spiritual awakening and certain brain states (decreased DMN activity being the main takeaway)
- neurofeedback technology has been developed that aids in reaching those states more effectively during meditation

What's coming:

- the precise nature of those brain states, their nuances, advantages and disadvantages will be better understood
- technology to help tune the brain to those states will improve (example of research being done)

What's coming further down the line:

- AI algorithms will be able to match subtleties of speech, facial expression and body language to corresponding brain states
- Consumers will have access to this technology so that their AR glasses/lenses or Neuralink can show them in real time what brain states people are in

When that last stage has been reached, fake gurus and such will be largely a thing of the past.

Gaja Wrote:
---------------------------------------
> Once I was sad, because I had no job, and I threw
> away almost all I had, becase I thought this is
> bad, to have many things, and I was going to new
> job with flip flops in autumn, days were rainy and
> cold, and I catch a cold. He said at satsang later
> with anger - some people complain they have no
> shoes, and African children walk with no shoes and
> they so happy. He maybe felt guilty, so he didn't
> want to feel it, so with anger, he projected this
> feeling on me. And of course I felt guilty,
> selfish, and angry, because he all the time
> complain about me. And then everytime at my home,
> my sister, or mother said, they need 10-th pair of
> shoes I already judged them, as I was judged by
> Mooji, but only in my mind, I didn't want them to
> feel bad.

It’s exactly how things go.

Getting rid of belongings has much effect on us, there is the start of unhealthy thinking because it was taught to be right - putting of others needs before ourselves programming being entered in - which renders us unable to help others anyway.

Also, the gradual stripping of sense of self which is damaging.. because our little (or many :D) belongings are things that have meaning, sometimes important use like with your shoes, others it doesn’t matter if it has nothing directly functional, such as a pretty item that was a gift or reminds us of something. Without our belongings, familiarity, our personal sense of who we are is disrupted.

It makes us open to those who wish to impose themselves upon others.

I shed a tear when I read about your shoes, for you and for me because I have had a similar experience.


> You know what, I think I do not doubt, what I can
> hear from those gurus, and teachers. People may
> tell me, I have twisted mind, or I do not
> understand something. But I do understand, and I
> do know, when something doesn't feel right. If I
> say, something doesn't feel right about Moo, or
> Adya, this mean, I have trust for my senses.

... and that’s how you made it through, you can trust your senses !

> Adya has many many great insights, but maybe he
> still has some leftovers of ego.

I think ego is ok, it’s just a weird business going on and many have been taught by those they look up to that it’s the right thing to do by people. It seems that the more a person is willing to throw themselves in the bin, the less healthy they become in all spheres... and they share it thinking it’s good.

I wonder how many people would still be in this business if there was no financial incentive, and to cover all bases.. no barter system either.

I wish you best Gaja. Wish you best :-)

Quote
some kind of smear test

- I’d like to correct my typo here, it was meant to say “smear campaign” - smear test is an entirely different thing and I’ll say no more. I cannot laugh at myself harder.

zizlz Wrote:
----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> Yes you have to watch out for that. Each teacher
> has their blind spots and none is totally free
> from ego. Yet that meditation can't be taught or
> guided isn't my experience, so I don't think
> that's true for everyone. I tried getting into
> meditation on my own but got nowhere until I
> joined a Zen school.

Again, total freeing of ego is really a myth to me so I’m sorry I cannot share the view.. Egoless state (as far as it was) cause a whole lot of trouble. I am currently exploring how I make sense of that personally and it really is just that superiority and inferiority polarity scale that slides, coupled with various individual emotional conditions for me rather than any sort of ego explanation that I have come across.

I know Adya leans to the egoless space, but there is a fine line between self righteousness and just not being a big head because you’ve got a billion trillion dollars in your bank account, or that you think your expert of things over others that can accrue such charges.

For me? There is literally no teacher, except for you, nobody teaches anyone it just appears as they do.. there are overseers who confirm your own teaching of yourself.

Self righteousness being part of the topic here with Gaja when world atrocities are quoted instead of the addressing of very real immediate individual problems that need solving.

Reading up a whole load of self righteousness explanations and articles means that whenever people are speaking on that level, it shows up with so much clarity that if you ignore yourself, then you truly have put yourself in the bin along with the self righteous speaker.

If you learned something with Zen monks it’s wonderful - I do not believe that it is taught though, the act of meditation.

I also do not believe that meditation is as healthy as it’s generally put out to be, and in many practices of long term types, I do not believe it is healthy at all. People have forgotten it’s original culture and are mislead in thinking that they have experiences, when it is is simply brain chemistry.

If you are doing your brain research, you’l likely come across why one day. Maybe the science / spiritual topic is another thread.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2020 06:59PM by facet.

Quote
facet
total freeing of ego is really a myth to me

Okay, so at least we found some common ground :) Thanks for adding some more explanation about your trepidations about Adya and meditation. There are many points I'd like to address but I don't want to write a wall of text or get too off-topic so I'll keep it short(ish).

I don't think that the question whether meditation can be taught is really up for debate. There's so much evidence for the success of meditation training that it has been incorporated into many forms of psychotherapy (where they call it "mindfulness training" to avoid religious/mystical connotations).

Of course meditation can be harmful as well. Like anything, it can be done wrong, misused, and abused. I've had periods where I did it wrong myself: I tried to use it to avoid/suppress mental/emotional stuff. Meditation teachers can help you avoid or get out of common pitfalls like these.

But meditation teachers can also abuse meditation as a sort of mind control mechanism. I think this happens more with people that aren't straight up meditation/mindfulness teachers but "spiritual teachers" or worse, "gurus".

Adyashanti is more of a spiritual teacher than a meditation/mindfulness teacher, I think. We should certainly be on the lookout for potential abuse (whether it's financial/emotional/sexual etc.) of students.

I think lots of people come to these teachers with expectations like Gaja had: the expectation that they are free from ego, that they are somehow beyond the human condition. I know some spiritual teachers are seriously creeped out by students with such unrealistically high expectations, and do anything they can to avoid being put on a pedestal that way.

Other teachers take the opposite approach and happily take place on the pedestal. One that comes to mind is Mooji, the teacher in Gaja's heartbreaking shoe story.

What's Adyashanti's attitude in such cases? I honestly don't know.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2020 12:11AM by zizlz.

facet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I wish you best Gaja. Wish you best :-)


Thank you, the same to you :-)

Quote
Okay, so at least we found some common ground :)

Sure, but if there isn’t any common ground it need not create a conflict.

Everyone has a different viewpoint, it might be annoying that it keeps getting mentioned but they are all valuable viewpoints to me.

Who does the meditating? Because it sure isn’t Adya. It is the meditator.

Adya knows his bit since he has gone down the road before, and can share his reflections, relate through the stories of feeling experiences that will be broad spectrum that others can relate, though others experience cannot be the same - even in just the one aspect that all brains are wired in their own ways, and have their own balance of chemistry.

Sitting in with a group of meditators comes the contagion, is this the learning that you mean? - when you are breaking away from the group the contagion subsides to the more frequent places and people around and depending on depending on personal processing.

Meditation does have its (very) attractive points, but in today’s world this is not of service to the evolving brain... and therefore the person.

Thought process always backs up, no matter the “allowing” - it is not that anyone did anything wrong which is often the accusation when bringing up the side effects, such as meditator then with the spinning thoughts issue because brain lost the process through practice, so you gotta meditate. And meditate. And meditate.. until life smacks you back into action again. It’s nice for a while, but eventually a dead end.

Adyashanti has put himself up as guru though hasn’t he? Do you see different?

He might say no to that but the role is there with bells and flashing lights.

Quote
I think lots of people come to these teachers with expectations like Gaja had: the expectation that they are free from ego, that they are somehow beyond the human condition.

The teacher is always responsible for that. They put themselves there, on screens to sell themselves. It is foul practice and the people who come are blamed for having the expectations.

I think everyone's different. Meditation may be a dead end to you but that doesn't mean it is for everyone.

Quote
facet
so you gotta meditate. And meditate. And meditate.. until life smacks you back into action again. It’s nice for a while, but eventually a dead end.

To me the value of meditation isn't the meditation itself but the long term effects it has, which doesn't disappear when you get back into action. Increased equanimity, concentration, and sensory clarity. We can keep exchanging opinions but to me that's not interesting. To me the evidence from my own experience and the existing extensive scientific research is sufficient.

Quote
facet
Adyashanti has put himself up as guru though hasn’t he? Do you see different?

Yes. A guru is a teacher in the Hindu tradition, a tradition that includes worship of the teacher. Adyashanti comes from a Zen background (though he teaches in a non-traditional way), doesn't pretend to be a guru, and doesn't get worshipped like a guru. What makes you think he puts himself up as a guru?

Quote
I think everyone's different. Meditation may be a dead end to you but that doesn't mean it is for everyone.

It’s true, but side effects are there and can happen to anyone.. despite correct practice. That is the issue. In the same way you mention, it is different for everyone but there’s no need for me to be right in only my view all the time - I simply share my own findings and observations collected after considering all.


In th e context of ‘guru’ being linked to a purported expert in a particular field, one who sells guidance of sorts as so to those who might seek them - traditions aside.

He chose to create the paid job as a guru / teacher / mentor in this way, he supposedly guides people through, plenty of clips on YouTube, sells the guided meditations, does the retreats. Same framework different dressings. Does his livelihood depend on it or is he in a regular paid job?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2020 05:07AM by facet.

Quote
facet
He chose to create the paid job as a guru / teacher / mentor in this way, he supposedly guides people through, plenty of clips on YouTube, sells the guided meditations, does the retreats. Same framework different dressings. Does his livelihood depend on it or is he in a regular paid job?

Okay, we just have different definitions of "guru", I guess. For me the word is tied to guru-worship. I'm not very familiar with that tradition but I think it involves a belief that total surrender and devotion to the guru can lead to enlightenment. When Westerners start culturally appropriating the guru-tradition, transplanted out of the collectivist, hierarchical context of Indian culture, you inevitably get cultish madness. These Western gurus really are all over. They literally call themselves "guru". There's a lady guru a few kilometers away from me, very cultish.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Wikipedia link there to ‘satsang’, it gives the origin too.

Adya satsangs his way around a lot :-D

I don’t know, I just find it completely insane what people are doing. Trends too.

When is there a space for unkindness when attracting and working with groups of vulnerable people? I’ll answer because I’m feeling cheekier than usual today - there is no space for unkindness when working with vulnerable people. None.

Same as ‘crazy wisdom’ and the shock / fear of the dorje, forget it. It’s a road to ptsd amongst a society largely looking for help and healing, somewhere to belong.

The traditions are not business, look at the casualties coming out. Adya for me, as much as I like him, is one of the people supporting this insane model.