zizlz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One more thing I'd like to add: the abuse of
> meditation seems to go hand in hand with
> presenting meditation as some kind of panacea for
> the psyche. Psychoanalysis helped me become aware
> of serious emotional issues I had repressed since
> childhood. Before going into psychoanalysis, I had
> already done years of daily meditation, but none
> of that helped me see my psychological blind
> spots. I think people who are attracted by cults
> often have psychological issues they have to deal
> with, and when the cult tells them they can fix
> themselves by meditating, they are led astray.
> Also: there's many ways to meditate, including
> wrong ways. I know someone who got into some kind
> of trance-like state during meditations, where
> there was little or no thought, but not much
> awareness or clarity either. So on second thought
> I have to agree that in some cases meditation can
> be a bit like a tranquilizer. But generally I
> don't think that's the case.


I didn’t see this before I posted, apologies, yes meditation is presented as a panacea. It isn’t the answer to everything and I think many of us go into it wishing that it was, because we couldn’t get answers at the regular doctors anymore. Definitely there are ways not to meditate, I think there can be some confusion between dissociate and meditate sometimes.

Pscychoanalysis is amazing. I am glad to hear it has helped you, it has helped me too. It is great for blind spots, we cannot see all of our workings alone, and saying that I would say that lethal scrutiny is required when about to work with someone on these brain levels, something that the cults world gets away with.

I think more awareness of our human bodies and how they are working may help people stay out of cults, recently science acknowledged the vagus nerve being a ‘centre of wellbeing’, which I think is a start.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2020 04:34AM by facet.

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facet
When something isn’t working in some way, and there is a stress response that is overridden in order to adapt, is it not that there is a resurgence of the same thing? Causes not dealt with, signals to change something increasing?

When the prefrontal cortex is more involved and the amygdala is less involved in the response to a situation, I think that doesn't mean that you're slower to react or less likely to react when needed, but that you do so with less stress and anxiety. But I'm no expert; I'm not sure. If you feel a more instinctive (amygdala-dominant) way of responding works better for you, I don't know, you may be right about that. Maybe it works differently for different people. I used to have too much anxiety and only a fraction of that has remained now, maybe due to my meditation practice. In my job I often have to respond quickly and accidents could easily happen if I didn't, but if anything, I feel I'm now more capable of quick and appropriate reaction than I was in my more anxious days.

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facet
Definitely there are ways not to meditate, I think there can be some confusion between dissociate and meditate sometimes.

Yes very well said! That's exactly what I meant — improper meditation can quickly become a form of dissociation. The state that person seemed to be in during meditation was a sort of dissociative bliss. Someone else I know who tries to learn meditation has a tendency to repress her thoughts, which is also unhealthy, of course.

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facet
I think more awareness of our human bodies and how they are working may help people stay out of cults, recently science acknowledged the vagus nerve being a ‘centre of wellbeing’, which I think is a start.

I don't even know what the vagus nerve is; I'm going to read up on that, sounds interesting!

I found the same article, link though enjoy your own researches, you’l find lots!

I am no expert either, so same for me.

With our differing meditation experiences, and we can expand that to others too, maybe this is where neuroplasticity (our wiring) comes into play.

Being unique for each of us, we experience various results with the same interventions.

During World War II Zen Meditation was taught for this same purpose.


The Soldiers Who Are Using Mindfulness to Reduce Stress and Become Better Killers

[www.vice.com]

By itself meditation is amoral...and can be used for anti social as well as pro social purposes.

From the Vice article:

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This could be the future of warfare as the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) is increasingly providing training in mindfulness tools and breathing techniques to manage stress, build resilience, enhance wellbeing and improve combat effectiveness.

That's interesting. I think it casts doubt on the conclusion in the topic title ("Meditation reduces reactivity to perceived threat"), which was based the finding that meditation is correlated with reduced amygdala activity.

Maybe in many or most people, the amygdala is overactive, and meditation downregulates it to a state of normal activity rather than to a lack of activity. Otherwise, I don't see how reduced amygdala activity can go hand in hand with improved combat effectiveness.

I just took a look at the first few posts in this thread and to my surprise I already wrote about a possible explanation of this conundrum of how decreased amygdala reactivity apparently doesn't constitute decreased alertness (or in the case of the Vice article, decreased combat effectiveness). Here it is, slightly rewritten:

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zizlz
In my experience, an effect of regular meditation that endures when not meditating, is an increased ability to recognize that you are thinking when you are thinking. This increased awareness of thought also increases the awareness of the option to drop a train of thought when it's useless. The result is an overall decrease of mind-wandering (a link between regular meditation and a decrease in the Default Mode Network (DMN) has been found in other studies). [DMN is linked to mind-wandering]

When you're lost in thought and suddenly you hear a loud noise in the vincinity, you'll probably be more startled than if you were in an alert state of mind. So there's less right amygdala response to stimuli in people whose minds aren't wandering, but that doesn't mean they're less alert or less capable of reacting to threats, though it might mean that they're more capable.

I think this is a more likely explanation of the seeming contradiction than the one in my previous post, but still, there may be a better explanation, I'm curious about what other forum members think about this.

I've a background as a teacher in Reality Based Self Defence, teaching exclusively law enforcement and military combatives personal protection. I havn't read the whole thread, in fact I've only read the last post. Please excuse me everyone for I might not be getting the gist of this at all. :) .

In the last post it speaks about 'combat effectiveness'. This is something that the personal protection field is acutely interested in. In fact, for those that are acclimatised to real world combat, it is only what's combat effective that is of use. If we can appreciate, a difference can be made here between sports martial arts, and fighting for one's life in the street.

Meditation, and yoga in fact, is used quite a bit in military and law enforcement. For a very good reason. When the body undergoes high stress it loses control of it's fine motor skills while still retaining gross motor skills. We use this in personal protection so that we can still be physically effective.

It's important for the individual to not have themselves overwhelmed mentally. British Police teach a color coded system, which I was taught, and it's of great use. You don't want to go from white to black. And that's the point of 'combat effectiveness' point.

Meditation is used in order for the individual to build focus. After all, mediation of simply focusing on one thing. law enforcement & military also use 'tactical breathing' (think simple belly breathing). The benefits of this is that is both calms the body and focuses the mind. And this is done in live situations. It has been coined by US Navy Seals as 'box breathing.


I am only guessing the points being made here, (sorry im cooking lunch), and I can appreciate if there is any view that mediation may make one focused in a way that other things are not noticed. This can be true. Though it really is also on the whole purpose, the physiological and mental effects of meditation can be of great use in preventing the fear factor in combat.

I would have to look at what's being said specifically in regard to amygdala and combat effectiveness to be precise. I will say that generally, in front line, shit hit the fan reality training, there is absolutely nothing that we include that would reduce combat effectiveness.


If i'm speaking out of context, please forgive me. This view is only from a personal protection perspective. The amygdala is responsible for fear and aggression. We teach what is called 'controlled aggression'. Always staying witihn the law, we teach the student to unleash that hidden survivor in themselves, to do whatever the F*** they can to get away from the attack. Control is a big part of this. Anything that helps develop focus could be used.

I'm probably biased also, as i'm a yoga and meditation teacher, lol. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2020 12:57AM by earthquake.

Thanks for your input, Earthquake.

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Earthquake
I am only guessing the points being made here, (sorry im cooking lunch), and I can appreciate if there is any view that mediation may make one focused in a way that other things are not noticed. This can be true.

Yes I guess that's broadly the point of the initial post, that meditation can make you accept (or overlook?) suboptimal circumstances instead of improving them. I disagreed with some of the arguments used to substantiate that idea, but I'm not sure what to think about the idea itself. I think it needs better evidence than what was provided. Whether that evidence exists, I don't know.

And then later there was a link to an article that was about meditation being used in the military. This information was provided to support the idea that meditation in itself doesn't make you a better person, i.e. meditation is amoral. I think that's plausible.

Quote
zizlz
Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for your input, Earthquake.
>
>

Quote
Earthquake
> I am only guessing the points being made here,
> (sorry im cooking lunch), and I can appreciate if
> there is any view that mediation may make one
> focused in a way that other things are not
> noticed. This can be true.
>

>
> Yes I guess that's broadly the point of the
> initial post, that meditation can make you accept
> (or overlook?) suboptimal circumstances instead of
> improving them. I disagreed with some of the
> arguments used to substantiate that idea, but I'm
> not sure what to think about the idea itself. I
> think it needs better evidence than what was
> provided. Whether that evidence exists, I don't
> know.
>
> And then later there was a link to an article that
> was about meditation being used in the military.
> This information was provided to support the idea
> that meditation in itself doesn't make you a
> better person, i.e. meditation is amoral. I think
> that's plausible.

This all could depend on the meditation itself. The application itself, but also crucially, the surrounding framework.

A person can approach meditation from a purely relaxation perspective. Or, maybe they are indeed trying to control thoughts. Or, like in Vedanta, they might be doing the opposite, entertaining the thought flow.

The framework around and within 'meditation' will have a bearing on the desired outcome. it's not enough to simply meditate and think one size fits all. For example, there's a difference in the path of Buddhism and that of a Navy Seal.So, differences are within and around.

Could this have a bearing on things guys? In that, essentially, it's not an and/or but a 'both'?