I have not seen or read the other topic on channeling. Have you ever known or been in the presence of a channeler or mediums?

It's slightly off topic for a discussion on Robert Shubow because I don't believe he is acting directly, or presenting himself, as a spiritualistic medium. It's really only relevant as far as his involvement within Brahma Kumarism and their claims and practises of a variety of different forms of spiritualistic mediumship, and so, therefor, it would probably fit better in the topic on them.

However, where is matters is related to Robert's concept of, connection with, and transmission of what he believes to be "god", ie whether it is still the same god or spirit as the BKs claim possessed their founder and their various spirit mediums, consciously or unconsciously, or whether he has renounced it and the connection.

To be honest, I find his delivery to be so excruciatingly slow and boring, possibly a bit fake and learned by example - we would argue - from the Brahma Kumaris*, but also very much typical of Indian gurus 'being profound', that I really can't be bothered sticking around to listen to what he is saying. It's like he's playing up to an archetype of what people think a guru must be like.

On one hand, he appears to referencing classical monist idea, on the other hand he is still very clearly tied to various Brahma Kumari influences. On face of it, he appears to me to running a center doing what he thought a Brahma Kumari center or "spiritual university" or "spiritual hospital" (both terms the BKs use) should be but weren't capable of.


The BKs will use terms such classical terms as "Supreme Being", "Absolute", "Ocean of Consciousness" etc in a misleading way to mean not some universal cosmic state but their very specific god spirit. An individual being or personality as separate as you and I.

Shubow continues to use them, but frames himself in the traditions of Ramana Maharish and vedantism etc. It's not clear to me which god he is serving or hooking people up to. Or perhaps he came to the conclusion that the BKs got their concept of god wrong all along?

Unfortunately, you can't access his teachings on his website unless you pay and I am not doing that.

The BKs have come to call their god spirit Shiva, but their beliefs have nothing at all shared with prior or classical Hindu or Shaivite concepts of Shiva. I note Robert likewise refers to Shiva and presumably one of the reason he deifies Ramana Maharishi is that he too referred to Shiva.

While he hides his Brahma Kumari background, perhaps adopting Ramana is a way of keeping the BK god spirit in the picture?

It matters because BKism is a yoga with, am absorption in, or surrender to their god spirit and its will; opening up oneself to it, to be used by it.

Skimming over a few of the publicly videos, it makes me sick of how many direct 'loans' from BKism he is using ... while hiding from those surrounding him where he got the "map" or model from (via free courses too!).

"In Kali Yuga, the most common relationship with god is, to be the theif of god ... to take from The Source for the enjoyment of the ego", he says. WTF is he doing to BKism!?!


* All those long pauses and staring in the eyes of adherents (the BKs call it dhristi, a suppose transmission of spiritual power through the eyes)

Note a review from Amazon of one of his books.

Quote

Aion
1.0 out of 5 stars

Inflated and confused

Reviewed in Australia on 23 June 2019
Verified Purchase

I was very keen to read this book after watching a number of the author's talks on Youtube and reading some essays online. The book starts off quite well. It is, in places, insightful, combative, even commanding in places. However, as you continue to read it is obvious that a fake name does not a prophet make. This book is, in many places, nothing more than a marketing exercise for the psychologically inflated opinions of a person setting themselves up as a true 'guru'. It is (potentially) cultish and, quite honestly, runs out of steam quickly. The author is obviously very well read but, unfortunately, he presents as an enthusiastic undergraduate of comparative religion and not the enlightened being he tries to deny he is while 100% inviting you to accept he is. This book speaks of unintentional fraud based on a belief borne of delusion while, nevertheless and paradoxically, being based on (some) genuine insight. Inflation. If it gets you where you're going, no harm done. If it makes you want to sell the house and become a Sat Yogi in Costa Rica, take a step back and engage with this material more sceptically.

Hi Ex-,

Yes you are right, perhaps off topic with the channeling however for me channeling, mediumship, the suggestion of absolutely anything else flowing through the being other than the person in themselves .. this is all the same thing to me and is apparent in Roberts teachings that he gives the impression of an ‘other’ working through him, to include what you say about dhristi though I only understand this term from general yoga practice to look from a certain view, not to send energies etc.

The teachings do appear to be borrowed from many sources, though BK teachings throughout the whole materials of Shunyamurti were really obvious. I guess all the borrowed teachings consist of what has been well read, admired as ideals and then wrapped together with the main existing programming (from BKs) and unfortunately put out as projection.

There is even the bit from the bible included, since another poster highlighted that Robert was ‘instructed ‘ to build an ark, traditional bible story style.

In trained hypnosis, I have read that the slowed speech is an intentional technique, for self and others.

From some of what you say, I wonder if Robert is one who believes that he is Krishna too. If that is the case then maybe his all pervading knowing includes all teachings currently available to mankind for that reason?

For me, I think it is settled that he is mentioning varied traditions as means of trying to appeal to many faiths in order to get people in. Sticking to one may be too limiting for the idea he may have in mind, which may likely be a grand world organisation affiliated with the UN such as BK’s are today , maybe another reason why more money is needed so that the charitable status can begin in that sense as with his main source of emulation.

“Brahma Kumari center or "spiritual university" or "spiritual hospital" (both terms the BKs use) should be but weren't capable of.”

I note that many of these type of places use words to imply a place of education such as institute or university, another way of getting people in as if it is educational then it is attractive for ones growth, unfortunately it is just for the growth of the institute over any student.. and the word hospital, well I am pleased that you mention it...

For anyone reading who does not know and would like to look into this, search images for the Brahma Kumaris Uniform, put your designers eye on and tell me that this uniform is not intentionally fashioned to mimic a traditional nurses uniform with the nurses watch hanging from the pocket.

This is deception at its most obvious point, right in people’s faces to prey on the most vulnerable of society who need help, the nurse being the trusted, helpful archetype as a cover.

It is not an institute to look up to and I commend any for walking away, though the structure must also be walked away from. It is unhealthy and the model is corrupt. I would question why he would replicate all that if he left because of it? Everybody involved has to ask !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2020 05:09AM by facet.

Well, no. The uniform is a white sari with a badge on the left determining rank or length/level of commitment. It's normally only worn by widows in India. As far as the evidence goes, it was only adopted at a later date, and my guess would be inspired by Gandhi's followers, who also wore it and predated them. It was not traditional of their community in the Sind, and, in the early days, they worse quite a Westernised school-type uniform.

Yes, for a long time they passed themselves off as a "university". Got into trouble in a few places where it was a protected term, and argued elsewhere that they were not claiming to be a "university" but were a "spiritual university", as if that was an different.

They do, however, appear to be downplaying in the West now as they realize it is a little uncool and unconvincing but the inner teachings are consistent, theirs is a "unlimited university" while all other (real) universities are merely impure, limited universities providing a limited education.

They call their beliefs gyan or "the knowledge" and those who have it gyani, which I read Robert doing also.

One of the huge audacities of the BKs is their claim that *THEY* are the source of all religious teachings, even of those that came 1,000s of years before them, eg that Hinduism is an incomplete, impure recollection of them and their religion.

They achieve this by the use of the idea of a 5,000 year endlessly and identically repeating Cycle. They believe that to be literally true, that all time and space repeats identically ever 5,000 years, right down to a molecular level.

By this device, they can claim that they were teaching 5,000 years identically to today. Therefore, the Hindus, Buddhist, Jews, Christians and all the other religions right down to the small cult ... all gained their beliefs and spiritual power now at this time. Had to. No exceptions. The currently reincarnated Jesus, Buddha, Abraham, Muhammed etc (presumably all the way down to Jim Jones and David Koresh) all had to have some exposure to BKism, BK teachings and the BK god spirit ... in order to "Gain their inheritance" for the next Cycle. To be reborn again as those religious avatars to start their religions over again.

Hence, although they have obviously lifted key components of their cultic beliefs from Hinduism, Sikhism, Sufism of their native region of Pakistan and elsewhere, they claim their god spirit to be the originators of it all.

So when I write Robert has obviously borrowed heavily from BKism, BKism has obvious borrowed heavily from Hinduism etc. I'd say, he's just got from them is how its possible to put together a syncretic religion, and turn it into a little shop for himself.

Something Robert leans heavily on though, is the BKs belief we are at the End of the Iron Age, or Kali Yuga. Only the BKs believe that. According to Hinduism, Kali Yuga, one of the four main ages in the cycle of time, is set to last for 100,000s of years.

It's bizarre for me to listen to. He also uses many descriptions of his ashram, activities, and his following that are directly picked from BKism.

Now, from a BK point of view, to attract attention to yourself and away from the BKWSU and its god spirit is probably the worst crime, even more than making love (I don't know if he is having sex with his new "wife"), and he'd know this. He was not stupid. To elect oneself a guru or master and reinterpret the Knowledge is way off the menu. It just does not work that way. It's as wrong as wrong can get.

Therefore, for me, it's concerning for the sake of the ethical gymnastics he must be doing to work the mutually incompatible concepts.

From a BK point of view, he's probably on a demonic level. Lost to his own ego. Deluded, as in "eating up by Maya" or "lost to body consciousness" etc.

"Eating unripe fruit" is a term they use, as in consuming the good karma he has previous done by surrendering to them and having yoga with their god spirit, that will leave him spiritual bankrupt by the end of the cycle AND having to face judgement for having misled all his followers away from BKism into his own circle or bank balance.

I mean, the idea of a nice, open, eclectic eco ashram high up in the mountains of Costa Rica is a nice retirement for anyone to have.

But what's with the big guru trip thing going on?

Won't people come and pay and work for free unless you dress it up in that manner? Is that just what it is all about? Putting on the garb of a guru and building something that fulfils people's expectations of an ashram well enough that they fall for it?

I think it's largely how BKism worked and developed.

Yes, in BKism dhristi has a different meaning. Their meditation is done open eyed, the individual leading it will go from person to person in the audience staring into their eyes (or third eye where they believe the soul sits), and they are or imagine that energy is flowing down from their god spirit through them, into the souls in front of them.

Beyond that even, that they are spiritually overshadowed by either their god spirit/founder or a deceased and elevated senior member and that being is radiating an even higher level of spiritual power through them. Again, although not in those Westernized terms, is what the teachings say is happening.

For what it is worth, and I tell you it is very little to nothing or a negative, I used to teach their "Knowledge" (it's not really), meditation and guide meditation sessions.

Prior to engaging with them, I had also had a variety of involvement with spiritualism and studied hatha yoga. Therefore I'd have had a variety of weird and wonderful experiences (albeit ultimately pointless ones). What I experienced during my time within BKism was clearly beyond my normal abilities or normal human experiences. Although I place no positive value because I tend to judge it based upon not what it was, but who and what it was ultimately serving.

I think a lot of people don't get beyond the "gee whiz" factor and are blown away and seduced by it, and become addicted to it. (The BKs literally call it "intoxication").

I have not got yet to the bit where Robert talks about other spirits or energies working through him. If you know where, without any additional effort on your behalf, I'd be interested in watching it.

If it is so, I'd red flag it as being the same spirits or spiritual energies that are involved in BKism.

Hi Ex-,

Thank you again for sharing your insights, which I hope you will understand are extremely valuable, to everybody who might be looking into the subjects raised here and also myself.

Yes of course for traditional dress however the badge as you say, it is more of a logo from my perspective, and although it may signify rank the shape of it is the same design as a traditional nurses pocket watch, teamed upon the persistently white background due to the beliefs about color, it screams mimicry to me.

Logo is created for a reason, not only to “brand” any business but to also remain at the forefront of the mind of those who engage with it. Similar to how an image of a deity would work, the logo uses the same system.

Sometimes the human eye is scanning familiarity in shapes and colour over what we know as style of dress, and for me this is what makes brahmas uniform the wolf in sheep’s clothing. I understand that others will not see the same.

Your experiences are exactly what you say they are, absolutely, unless you have decided to question and enquired to see them differently with any another person then they are exactly yours to name, nobody else. Nobody can change this except for you.

I think it has already been mentioned by another posted in the discussion here which clip and the time where Shunyamurti is referring to “them”, which were the unseen force, or guide etc that he was receiving communication from.

I also recall the mention of divine messenger (unseen force) as the guide to build an ark in his writing about it.

Guiding others in a group as the only person who can access any named unseen force is problematic to me.

It makes sense that BKs wrapping all the religions in is also the path of Shunyamurti at his Sat Yoga Institute. There are a few who do this in other circles too, although it is largely a repackaging and renaming of the original practice made into entirely something else, so not the same in this case as at least most of the deity and sources are stated.

Wishing you best :-)

Ps thank you for the links shared, which are an excellent resource for information.

Sure, but remember the Brahma Kumaris were very small, very insular and from a very cloistered community in the first place during their founding 20 years, so you'd have to view the world from their perspective for influences, not a global one.

As far as the badges go, I actually have no idea if other Hindu sects, or Indian groups, use them; nor when they evolved but I do know over the last 40 years they have evolved, generally getting big and more expensive for the leaders, eg using real gold and gem stones.

The general following would get a simple Om Shanti/Shiva Baba (the name for their god spirit) which works as the corporate logo but also focus of mediation. The proven, surrendered sisters get a "Shiv Shakti" badge (which is a name they have taken to call themselves as individuals, ie a BK is a Shiv Shakti, full of or combined with their Shiva's energy), below which hangs a traditional enamelled image of Lakshmi and Narayan, the perfect woman and the perfect man, which is their aim at becoming. I believe these are the ones you are seeing as nurses watches ... but I think that's a little too culture bound.

In BKism, it is believed that the now deceased and allegedly perfected founder, Lekhraj Kirpalani is living in an angelic body of light, in another spiritual region "above" this one, combined with the spirit of their god. They call this combined being, "BapDada". That's like father and grandfather.

Yes, the BKs will claim these spirits speak to them, give them dreams and visions, guide them etc. Ditto the teaching state that other elevated deceased members also exist in this "Subtle Region" and influence or work through adherents.

Therefore, unless Robert has added other spirit guides to his pantheon, it is possible he believe he has been guided by the BKs' spirit guide or god ... but I dont know. It is certainly something BKs would claim happens.

Again, for me, his lack of clarity in these matters, hinting but hiding and holding back, establishes that he is not a pure source and cannot be trusted.

Of course, they are becoming hugely commercialized now, complete with gift shops for souvenirs, so I don't know the current situation exactly.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2020 04:54AM by ex-.

zizlz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> facet Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > It’s a theme, I’ll have find examples so that I
> > can share more clearly, though even in this new
> > Christmas one again Shunya mentions in it that
> the
> > more people are a certain way, others will
> follow
> > because of our ‘presence’. I’d say to everyone
> > with this idea to go and take that into
> reality,
> > it doesn’t work.
>
> Ah yes, in the Batgap interview they talk about
> this also, about something like a phase change of
> collective consciousness once a critical mass of
> awakened people has been achieved. They also refer
> to the "100th monkey effect" (a hypothetical
> phenomenon in which a new behaviour or idea is
> said to spread rapidly by unexplained means -
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> ). That effect was supposedly discovered by a
> researcher but he turned out to be mistaken. It
> would be nice if they are right though, but like
> you said, it hasn't been shown to work this way.
>
> In the interview, they related this phenomenon to
> the Maharishi Effect ("one percent of the
> population practicing the Transcendental
> Meditation Program in any city reduces the crime
> rate, accident rate, and sickness rate").
> Unfortunately, this effect also turns out to be
> based on false data, see
> [web.archive.org]
>
> > I found the nuclear section, it reminds me of
> the
> > framework of 144,000 or so that Jehovah’s
> Witness
> > give isn’t it? Of a special few who make it
> > because they adhered to some strict rules.
>
> Yes, that's very similar! I've been wondering: how
> do his followers think Shunya knows these things
> about the apocalypse? I assumed they think he has
> special powers to see into the future. But in the
> Christmas video (at 44:03) he tells that he knows
> the details about the number of people that will
> survive the apocalypse because "they say" it. He
> doesn't say who they are, and no one asks him.

I put the quote above from zizlz which gives the YouTube clip and time frame for where shunyamurti, or Robert refers to “they say”.

The link to Shunyamurti’s biography stating about building of an ark.

Also, for everybody else even further discussion already raised about this ashram and it’s hidden Brahma Kumaris back in 2007.

link thread to onsat yoga institute

Thank you Ex- for sharing and also for the images, in myself I am adamant of the visual connection, especially more so now as you mention the ranks as a nurses pocket watch would share the same sort of history and would symbolise nurses moving into family quarters etc once fully qualified. It has also been a symbol of rank in this sense.

> enamelled image of Lakshmi and Narayan, the
> perfect woman and the perfect man, which is their
> aim at becoming.

This always stood out to me, since there is nothing wrong with people to begin with this idea of becoming perfect is put in place which really belongs in the bin.

>
> In BKism, it is believed that the now deceased and
> allegedly perfected founder, Lekhraj Kirpalani is
> living in an angelic body of light, in another
> spiritual region "above" this one, combined with
> the spirit of their god. They call this combined
> being, "BapDada". That's like father and
> grandfather.
>
> Yes, the BKs will claim these spirits speak to
> them, give them dreams and visions, guide them
> etc. Ditto the teaching state that other elevated
> deceased members also exist in this "Subtle
> Region" and influence or work through adherents.

- all unseen forces being asked of others to put faith in.

> Therefore, unless Robert has added other spirit
> guides to his pantheon, it is possible he believe
> he has been guided by the BKs' spirit guide or god
> ... but I dont know. It is certainly something BKs
> would claim happens.

It seems the same as BKs to me, and for his apocalyptic vision this would usually be coming through meditation practice, so no back up as you would ask for in proving that the end is coming and in the way he says, just others faith in his word and (potential) faith in his idea of an unseen force.

>
> Again, for me, his lack of clarity in these
> matters, hinting but hiding and holding back,
> establishes that he is not a pure source and
> cannot be trusted.

Shunyamurti had never mentioned anything to do with BK or any involvement through any of his work posted online at least, that is very questionable, and now quite radical to me that it is so similar yet not quoted as source, after reading your insights on the matter.

Brahma Kumaris material itself is infuriating to me, I mean there’s steam coming out of everywhere when I am researching it, so I can relate why anyone who will question would move on from it whole heartedly, though to carry it on and simply skip the infuriating bits? It is questionable, especially without any mention from the man himself.

From the BK perspective of karma and bringing bad into himself, it seems he must have left the core of these ideas behind to be able to go forward and replicate as he has done, I understand BKs are happy with throwing the legal system against people, which if they have with Shunya we do not know.. and even if they would do so since Shunya is legally armed himself as a lawyer and if pressed he could easily throw some dirt I am sure.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2020 08:31PM by facet.