Hi all :)

TLDR: What more to read about ego diminishing?

I found this forum after googling for opinions on Eckhart Tolle. I'm really glad of learning different views from this topic:
forum.culteducation.com/read.php?6,54633,page=1
After finishing that topic, I read this one as well:
forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,7166,page=1
And I still haven't found an answer to what I'm looking for. On the 11th page The Anticult says "... Eckhart Tolle's alleged idea of Egolessness, which is more of a Buddhist idea..." but that's not specific enough. Which kind of Buddhism exactly and which texts should I read?
I was reading the Ramana Maharshi's Wikipedia page, then the Self-enquiry page, then the Self-realization page, on which it says " True happiness is the manifested Self. It only seems like a result because it is not felt or known permanently before the ego is removed." which is what I want to read more about, but everything around that quote is not about "ego removal" but about happiness instead. So that was a dead end.

I want to explain a bit about myself and how I got here.
I was raised as an orthodox Christian. I read the Bible and figured that's not what I can believe in. I've read the Wikipedia pages of the other main religions and nothing caught my eye so I left it at that, without paying any more interest in the spiritual field for several years. Later I was interested in personal development and read a lot of books, most of which I found useful. On one torrent site one of the most seeded books was The Power of Now so I downloaded it thinking it's similar to the others. I was pleasantly surprised and I enjoyed what I've learned from it so much that I downloaded everything from Tolle. I recently had the time to listen to it all. I liked all of it maybe because it was new to me. After reading the above mentioned topics I agree with the strong argument that he is a fraud because all he wants to get from his teaching is money and that corrupts his intentions. I understand that his ideas are all not his and just rephrased other teachings. This is why I'm posting this topic. I am interested in reading from other sources about the same and I need your help to guide me. I've read a bit from Advaita Vedanta's Upanishads and I see that it's about nondualism, which is interesting but I am more into other stuff Tolle said, namely the diminishing of the ego and the ways to do it.
I'm not interested in reading more about being in the present moment or distinguishing yourself from your thoughts.

Thanks for reading such a long post and I'll be grateful if you answer my request.

Dear darlof, it sounds as though you are looking for material to guide you
in your spiritual explorations.

Cult Education Institute is a resource for assisting people to understand
what distinguishes harmful teachers and groups from those less likely to
be or become harmful.

As an evidence based social science and education resource, CEI cannot offer
advice on "diminishing of the ego".

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
This forum was established for the purpose of allowing those with concerns about certain groups, leaders and designated topics to express and address those concerns.

What CEI does do is offer advice useful for discernment, assessing whether
a teacher or group is, or after you have joined, later becomes unsafe and exploitative.

According to many reviewers this book Cults Inside Out offers the most comprehensive description of
how exploitative teachers and groups operate, how to identify them and leave as soon as one can - and how to help friends and loved ones.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
from rrmoderator
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

The group/leader is always right.

The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

Yes, corboy you're right. I need help from someone to show me a road for me to take on, which can lead me where I want to go with my spiritual exploration.

From what I learnt in the last month, reading Cult Education Institute forum is that you guys deserve great admiration for helping people get out of those harmful groups and movements, showing them a clearer and more sober view on what their leaders are doing and why. You changed my opinion on Eckhart Tolle and made me see him for what he is.

I know that my request doesn't meet the criteria of what this forum is about, for which I apologize. The reason I posted it was because I met several highly erudite and well informed about the spiritual field members. For what I'm hoping for is one of them to please give me an advice on what religion/movement was one of the origins of the idea of lowering the ego.

Dear darlof, I am no authority on anything.

I can offer advice I wish I'd heeded earlier on:


* Do what you can to run background checks on anyone you consider getting
involved with. If the teacher has published books, look at *all* of the books.
Bookfinder dot Com is a potential research tool. You can see if you can
get the books for free by inter library loan.

Why do this? Because some teachers change their background stories, some
may even suppress their earlier work. Any teacher who does this is
operating from ego, even if he or she claims to teach ego transcendence.

This page gives an example

[forum.culteducation.com]

A teacher who teaches egolessness yet markets him/herself, charges different
prices depending on how close the seat is to the teacher's podium -- come on!

*If this teacher's followers say smug or nasty things against other
teachers, or speak badly of those who have chosen to leave, beware. Ask
them if others have gone to study with other teachers and see their reactions.

Some claim to investigate a teacher for years if need be, prior to
making a solemn commitment. The Dalai Lama gives this advice. But..this
is a mistake. If you hang around a teacher and his or her disciples,
spending all that time 'investigating' you will spend so much time
in that social setting that you will form social and emotional bonds
and lose ability to make a clear sighted decision.

** First impressions and your gut feelings are of the greatest importance.

If you stay longer, you may
be distracted by other things. People may flatter you and you might
then discount those first impressions. No matter how trival it seems
to be, if something makes a jarring impression on you, trust your intuition.
Its like that old movie, Double Indemnity. A man seems to have died by accident or suicide. HIs widow stands to collect a much larger insurance
payout - double indemnity. The insurance inspector, Mr. Keys, is pressured
to close the case. All the evidence points to suicide or accident. But Inspector
Keys cannot allow himself to close the case. He says he has a 'funny feeling' that
won't go away, a feeling that there is more to the case than what
the evidence indicates.

Keys refuses to close the case, keeps driven to investigate. The widow
and her lover can't stand the suspense and betray themselves.

They murdered the man, and would have gotten away with it -- except for
Inspector Keys and his intuition, his willingness to trust that 'funny feeling'.

No matter how wonderful a teacher or group is, schedule times for
you to sit down in private and assess whether it is still as
beneficial as when you first got involved.


A teacher who runs late fails to respect you - after all, you've
gone to the effort and expense of arriving on time. Even if it is an
introductory event and is free, a teacher who arrives late is failing
to respect those present. People who leave early are the ones who refuse
to tolerate this sort of thing; those who remain are the ones who put up
with it.

* Demand to know when the event starts and when it is scheduled to end. If it
runs past your bedtime, feel free to leave. Getting your sleep wake cycle
disrupted can actually compromise critical thinking. They've learned that
sleep deprivation can hamper judgement just as much as one or two hits of
alcohol.

* Pay attention to how people behave, not what they say.

* Do people get emotionally and or socially dependant on the teacher and
the scene surrounding the teacher? Do they keep outside friendships or
drop them?

* What kind of humor does the teacher and group have. It is a very bad sign
when sarcasm is present, even if for a second at a time. It is also
a bad sign if there is ever laughter at someone's expense. A teacher who
giggles all the time, laughs all the time tends to get the audience to laugh
in unison. This is a surprisingly effective way to seduce an audience into acquiesce.

* When adult teachers act giggly and 'cute', this can be a sneaky way to
avoid answering difficult questions. To challenge an inadequate answer from
a teacher who is cutsy, charming or who had made the audience laugh can make
you feel as though you are kicking a puppy. Beware of any teacher to
uses constant laughter - this, in my opinion, generates an atmosphere of distraction.

* Never feel afraid to ask a question. If you feel intimidated or if you see
others hesitating to ask questions for fear of being laughed at or shamed,
watch out.

* Some teachers will say or do 'shocking' things or even be nasty, rude, say
things that are sexist, obscene, then claim this is crazy wisdom or their followers make this claim. In my opinion, this is BS. A wise person
does not take pleasure in throwing people off balance.

* Pay close attention to the kind of people and overall social 'scene' that
forms around an advisor or teacher. Pecking order? Is there a uniformity
in dress, behavior, voice tone?

* Do people give up pursuits that formerly interested them? A long time
ago on a now extinct discussion venue, one person described some sort of
"enlightenment" or "egolessness experience",then reported that he had formerly
loved to play guitar but had, after his experience, lost interest in
playing. I knew a woman who had been deeply concerned about social justice,
kept herself up to date on the news, to the point of reading 3 newspapers per day.

After she joined what she called a Sufi group, I mentioned how Sufis in Pakistan
were being persecuted. She stared at me as though puzzled I would even mention
such a thing. I was floored that despite calling herself Sufi, she didnt
seem to care about the plight of Sufis in other parts of the world. In the end,
the only volunteer work she ever did was to look after the building her sect
occuppied. Her world shrank.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2016 09:42PM by corboy.

Corboy, thank you for your kindness and all your advice. I will definitely use my gut feeling and my sound judgement when I face religious movements that are new to me.

About the religious groups and meetings, I think they're a bad idea in general. At least for me I'm certain that the spiritual realisation is too personal and unique to be the same for even two people. I prefer to be informed of various views and to pick and choose pieces from here and there.

I'm also not interested in reading some modern interpretations of old teachings, but in finding the original or at least closer to it ancient religion or movement.

Dear Darlof:

One way to assess a teacher's character is to observe how he or she deals with
source material. If someone claims to be sole custodian of something for which no one can be sole custodian -- hmmm.

One item to be aware of is that some are out there who claim that
a "serious seeker" gives up all claim to basic human rights.

That one isnt a serious seeker unless one is willing to risk insanity, illness,
financial ruin, relationship betrayal in order to seek ego death or enlightenment, and that one must surrender into the hands of a savage
guru who will pummel that evil, loathsome ego to smithereens.

Here is an example: Ken Wilber's "Rude Guru" Manifesto.

[www3.telus.net]

Wilber never submitted himself to any such guru, but has endorsed a whole
series of so called 'teachers' who were tornadoes on feet and left destruction in their wakes.

[www.google.com]

One person wrote a critique of the culture of cruelty and abuse that
has formed around Wilber and those whom he has endorsed and who
associate with him.

[www.google.com]

This notion of "crazy wise" gurus started with such persons as
Chogyam Trungpa, Da Free John (Adi Da)* and was later exemplified
by such persons as Lee Lozowick (now deceased) and those claiming
inspiration from Gurdjieff or other 'Fourth Way' teachers.

This has not worked out well, not at all.

*Da Free John was endorsed by Ken Wilber.

** Chogyam Trungpa was from the Ri-Med orientation within Vajryana Buddhism; Ri-Med practitioners studied with a variety of teachers. By contrast, when
Trungpa created his own dharma centers with Western followers, he forbade
those vowed to study with other teachers 'heritics'. Trungpa told followers to
beware of 'spiritual materialism' yet created a ranking hierarchy, in which
new students did servant work for senior students, high ranking students wore
badges that distinguished them from lower ranking students, while Trungpa arranged to be served by uniformed servants. All that pomp and circumstance
merely re-enforced the spiritual materialism by fostering ambition.

(Source: The Double Mirror by Stephen Butterfield)

[www.google.com]

Chogyam Trungpa's source for 'Shambhala' -- the Ri-Med tradition

[forum.culteducation.com]

Finally, it can help to recognize that what we think of as "Buddhism" or "Hinduism" is actually something formed by the encounter of unfamiliar Asian
spiritual sects with Westerners in the 19th Century whose expectations where
shaped by Theosophy, by assumption that any religion could be given
a single name "Hinduism" "Buddhism" which implied a unity while concealing
the actual diversity. Buddhism and Hinduism more resemble clusters of sects, the way "Christianity" encompasses Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Calvinists, Quakers, Amish, Mennonites, Baptists, Pentacostals, etc.)

If any teacher claims to give the 'true ancient source' -- that is a form of possessiveness right there.

Hinduism became misleadingly equated with the Bhagavad Gita. Buddhism was equated with a mere cluster of texts.

The Making of Buddhist Modernism may be a bit tough, but gives an idea
of how what Westerners believe to be "Buddhism" is something shaped by
the preconceptions and desires of Westerners.

[www.google.com]

Donald Lopez The Dead: A Biography tells us how Evans Wenz, himself a Theosophist, had some expectations that influenced his search for texts
and the odd circumstances that led to the TBD being selected, rather than some other text (!)

[www.google.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 02:16AM by corboy.

Re" For what I'm hoping for is one of them to please give me an advice on what religion/movement was one of the origins of the idea of lowering the ego." (darlof)

I don't know who came up with the idea that your feelings are an issue (no one is quite clear about the elements of an Ego....and yes, I've studied the Eckhart book, power of now), and that they can be resolved with another idea (that you can dissolve it permanently.....which I feel he says he can accomplish, by becoming present and aware).

I have yet to meet a present and aware student of his or anyone (they just act like they are, but dig a little and they are just hiding from their emotions in truth).

The problem is the lie, that there is such a thing called an ego and the second lie, you can eliminate it and give yourself a transcendence experience that alters you enough so you can attest to it (and perhaps get a book contract out of it, aka be successful).

So what is going on with him? Should be the actual question posed (that makes him appear self assured about his topics, and a little loopy).