What is the truth?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: May 14, 2003 03:34AM
Each faith has the right to determine the meaning of its own holidays and its religious symbols.
Passover is not a Christian holiday.
I really am not interested in a debate about your beliefs.
The simple facts about Passover and the meaning historically attached to its symbols used within the traditional meal called the seder, is not about Christian faith or Jesus.
I am well-acquainted with what JFJ says in their programs. What they say is misleading and not historically accurate.
The celebration and established meaning of the symbols of Passover preceed Jesus and Chritianity. They are based upon the events recorded in the Book of Exodus.
I understand that Christians view the NT as the fulfillment of the OT. But that isn't the issue. The issue is the right of each faith to have its own holidays.
This is simply a basic matter of mutual respect.
Your faith does not give you the right to impose yourself and/or your beliefs upon another faith's holiday.
I am sorry if you cannot understand that.
Passover is not a Christian holiday.
I really am not interested in a debate about your beliefs.
The simple facts about Passover and the meaning historically attached to its symbols used within the traditional meal called the seder, is not about Christian faith or Jesus.
I am well-acquainted with what JFJ says in their programs. What they say is misleading and not historically accurate.
The celebration and established meaning of the symbols of Passover preceed Jesus and Chritianity. They are based upon the events recorded in the Book of Exodus.
I understand that Christians view the NT as the fulfillment of the OT. But that isn't the issue. The issue is the right of each faith to have its own holidays.
This is simply a basic matter of mutual respect.
Your faith does not give you the right to impose yourself and/or your beliefs upon another faith's holiday.
I am sorry if you cannot understand that.
What is the truth?
Posted by:
letGodbetrue
()
Date: May 14, 2003 06:45AM
First you say, "Each faith has the right to determine the meaning of its own holidays and its religious symbols."
Then you turn around and say, "Passover is not a Christian holiday." I used to attend a church that still to this day maintains a relationship with a messianic Jewish congregation, and they celebrate Passover, explaining the meaning and how it was fulfilled in Christ.
You say that "This is simply a basic matter of mutual respect.", but you do not respect my beliefs. You say that "Your faith does not give you the right to impose yourself and/or your beliefs upon another faith's holiday.", but you are imposing your beliefs on me!
I am not attempting to debate my beliefs with you, but I am at least trying to be honest about what they are.
If you have any specifics about what the JFJ organization teaches that is misleading or historically inaccurate, I'd like to know what it is. Thanks for your work in presenting the information you post on your site.
Then you turn around and say, "Passover is not a Christian holiday." I used to attend a church that still to this day maintains a relationship with a messianic Jewish congregation, and they celebrate Passover, explaining the meaning and how it was fulfilled in Christ.
You say that "This is simply a basic matter of mutual respect.", but you do not respect my beliefs. You say that "Your faith does not give you the right to impose yourself and/or your beliefs upon another faith's holiday.", but you are imposing your beliefs on me!
I am not attempting to debate my beliefs with you, but I am at least trying to be honest about what they are.
If you have any specifics about what the JFJ organization teaches that is misleading or historically inaccurate, I'd like to know what it is. Thanks for your work in presenting the information you post on your site.
What is the truth?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: May 14, 2003 09:55AM
Again, Passover is a Jewish holiday.
You may attend whatever activities you wish, but supporting the superimposing your beliefs on another faith's holiday is not respectful.
You may attend whatever activities you wish, but supporting the superimposing your beliefs on another faith's holiday is not respectful.
What is the truth?
Posted by:
letGodbetrue
()
Date: May 14, 2003 11:29PM
Is there a Bible Commentary that you recognize as being widely accepted among conservative, evangelical Christian scholars?
Our discussion has led me to examine this issue further, and I'm wondering- How do I establish to you what the conventions of our faith are?
Our discussion has led me to examine this issue further, and I'm wondering- How do I establish to you what the conventions of our faith are?
What is the truth?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: May 14, 2003 11:54PM
Please understand that I am not interested in an exchange with you about your beliefs. That is your personal business and I am not interested.
Also you are drifting quite a bit off topic.
Also you are drifting quite a bit off topic.
What is the truth?
Posted by:
richardmgreen
()
Date: May 15, 2003 12:12AM
Quote
Originally posted by rrmoderator
Please understand that I am not interested in an exchange with you about your beliefs. That is your personal business and I am not interested.
Also you are drifting quite a bit off topic.
The focus on this site is the deception and subterfuge used by cults in the promotion of their beliefs, and the damage to people who get dragged in.
I can corroborate what Rick Ross has said about Moshe Rosen of JFJ. He wasn't raised Jewish and as far as I can tell he knows very little about what Judaism in any of its brances means to traditional Jews. To him Judaism is simply a precursor to Xianity. To Rick and myself, they are two completely and often diametrically opposed systems.
I got involved with one of the first types of Messianic congregations in the early '70's on LI, NY. I found out later on that many of the so-called "proof texts" used to convert Jews to Xianity don't bear up to critical analysis.
Jews For Judaism has resources for this as does Shmuel Golding.
This site is for anti-cult activity and not for converting people to born again Xianity. And I can tell you from my experiences that most Born agains last only a few years and then go back to whatever it was they were doing before. Similarly to the Baalei Teshuva movement. But strained relations often occur.
What is the truth?
Posted by:
letGodbetrue
()
Date: May 15, 2003 01:51AM
I regret the adversarial nature our discussion is going. There seems to be an insistence that the Passover is not related to the Christian faith. I assure you that it is, but, as you say, who cares what I think? I don't want to debate my personal beliefs with anyone. So who answers for the Christian faith? You? Am I, or anyone else who reads your forum supposed to take your word for what the Christian faith believes? I suggested that perhaps a standard commentary, accepted by mainline Christian denominations would resolve this issue, but you keep trying to make it personal. I thought this forum as well as this web site was an objective perspective on what was happening with cults. You are beginning to convince me this isn't as objective as I thought.
What is the truth?
Posted by:
letGodbetrue
()
Date: May 15, 2003 02:28AM
I have been told several times now that I should stop sharing my personal beliefs, and yet your posts, Richard, are full of your experiences and what you believe. This is how cults begin, when different views are shouted down, and someone starts insisting that their experiences and beliefs are the only ones that count. Can't we stick to some reference material that we can refer to discuss these issues? For the Christian, the Bible is the ultimate authority, and for the Jewish person, I would expect it is the OT (or Torah). Do you have any actual references for the things you say, or do you expect me (us) to just believe it because you said it?
What is the truth?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: May 15, 2003 03:31AM
It seems like "letgodbetrue" is looking for an excuse to preach.
All that was said is that "Passover is a Jewish holiday," not a Christian one. The issue is not about "Christian faith" at all.
And the Jewish historical identity of Passover is just a simple fact and not a matter of "debate" or "personal beliefs."
"Christian commentary" does not define Passover and/or the symbols used in a Passover dinner meal. Obviously, this would be defined strictly and exclusively by Jewish commentary.
Just as it would be presumptious for Jews to define Christmas or Easter and the meaning of its symbols, it is wrong for Christians to attempt to define a Jewish holiday and its symbols, which were practiced and recorded historically before the birth of Jesus.
There is really nothing much to discuss here.
All that was said is that "Passover is a Jewish holiday," not a Christian one. The issue is not about "Christian faith" at all.
And the Jewish historical identity of Passover is just a simple fact and not a matter of "debate" or "personal beliefs."
"Christian commentary" does not define Passover and/or the symbols used in a Passover dinner meal. Obviously, this would be defined strictly and exclusively by Jewish commentary.
Just as it would be presumptious for Jews to define Christmas or Easter and the meaning of its symbols, it is wrong for Christians to attempt to define a Jewish holiday and its symbols, which were practiced and recorded historically before the birth of Jesus.
There is really nothing much to discuss here.
What is the truth?
Posted by:
richardmgreen
()
Date: May 15, 2003 03:39AM
Quote
Originally posted by letGodbetrue
I regret the adversarial nature our discussion is going. There seems to be an insistence that the Passover is not related to the Christian faith. I assure you that it is
(RMG's reply:Then why isn't Passorver celebrated by most Xian denominations. It's only been relevant when Xians try to convert Jews and convince Jews of the Jewishness of Jesus and the
idea that Xianity is the "fulfullment of Judaism". Generally speaking, most Xians don't celebrate Pesach and fewer Jews celebrate Easter.)
, but, as you say, who cares what I think? I don't want to debate my personal beliefs with anyone. So who answers for the Christian faith? You? Am I, or anyone else who reads your forum supposed to take your word for what the Christian faith believes? I suggested that perhaps a standard commentary, accepted by mainline Christian denominations would resolve this issue, but you keep trying to make it personal. I thought this forum as well as this web site was an objective perspective on what was happening with cults. You are beginning to convince me this isn't as objective as I thought.
(RMG's reply: Jewish history has been a heart rending one full of forced conversionary attempts, pogroms, inquisitions, etc.. Jews are well acquainted with Xianity's beliefs. We are surrounded by Xian culture everywhere we go in the Western World".)
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