Could tantric meditation on a guru permit boundary invasion?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 02, 2018 08:45PM

in various tantric traditions (and yes, these include what is collectively termed
Tibetan Buddhism) there are meditations in which one visualizes the guru and internalizes the guru image, visualizes oneself as buddha for some other deity.

Could this carry risks of boundary puncture and identity disruption - and make a person vulnerable to grooming by a predator in guru robes?


Rosenman, S. (2003). Assaultive Projective Identification and the Plundering of the Victim's Identity... Journal of the American Academy of Psychoanalysis., 31:521-540.


Stanley Rosenman has written about how identity and even emotions are interfered with when someone else inserts thier own introject into targeted persons--victims.

Rosenman examined this only in the context of traumatic assault, such as rape or prolonged torture.

He didnt consider that this could be done by seduction, persuasion, by presenting oneself as a guru and securing peoples attention by promsing priviliged access to the ancient heritage of India.

Here on the CEI message board we are free to ponder this. Rosenman has suggested that a self impaired perpetrator may seek immortality by injected shards of his or her introject into others.

This article is worth reading. Therapists can get it through subscription to PEP. Others may have to look for it at a psychoanlytic institute library.

I took some rough notes on Rosenman's article.

Rosenman, S. (2003). Assaultive Projective Identification and the Plundering of the Victim's Identity... Journal of the American Academy of Psychoanalysis., 31:521-540.

(abstract of article)

A destructive mode of projective identification is delineated: a predator's catastrophic attack calculated to cause the victim a stress disorder marked by a disarrayed identity. This discomposure enables the perpetrator to aggrandize a manifold inroad upon the victim's identity to imprint, intrude, mingle and/or lodge his representation into it; to ravage, steal from, impoverish, and/or corrupt it; finally to have his representation emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning. The victim's debased integrity is manifest in the symptoms of his ensuing posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)."


"The article was grim reading, but very, very informative.

Rosenman made use of testimony from people who had survived parenting from adults traumatized by war and persecution, and from persons who had survived prison atrocity, torture and other forms of prolonged, grievous assault. (This is not good stuff to read within an hour or two of bedtime--learned that the hard way.) (My note - any trauma the parent suffered would count).

The stuff that jumped out at me is that many times perpetrators present a very pathetic wounded child aspect of themselves while simultaneously intruding on and damaging vulnerable targets. ((Though Rosenman does not say so, this wounded pathetic child aspect of the perp is probably flip side of the vibrant charming child aspect of the perp when he or she is being sunny and seductive.))

The pathos literally disarms us--both before we are assaulted--and it disarms us after we are assaulted, by shaming us into distrusting our anger and revulsion at being trust busted.

This matches with how many abusive gurus (like my doctor, warped's doctor\bf, all our abusers) go into pathetic grand opera mode when feeling misunderstood--the pathos. It brings their defenders out of the woodwork (their relatives, friends, followers). Even those grievously victimized by Cohen still feel afraid to be disloyal and this has greatly muzzled the survivor's community and prevented it from becoming an effective agent for reform. Despite knowing how cruel and dangerous Cohen (one particular "guru" we've been following in CA) had been to them and that he was continuing to do this, most of the survivors pull their punches and feel afraid to be disloyal or hurtful-even a woman who was pressured and tormented to surrender over 2 million dollars still felt this hesitation. IT all fits with what Roseman describes--the seductive pathos of the tormentor.

In using pathos,the perp sets it up so the victim gets shamed and conned into feeling parental and loyal to the wounded child in the perp--and in feeling protective of the wounded child in the perp, the victim is simultaneously conned into disowning his or her own violated innocence. In this scam, its the powerholder/perp who gets the compassion and the victim ends up shafted with disorientation, shame and self loathing.

Two, Rosenman notes that perps feel soiled by what they've been through and some get a temporary sense of renewal and invigoration by disrupting the innocent happiness of their target and witnessing the person succumb to the shock that the perp went through. Rosenman noted that survivors of atrocity may resent and envy their children at having a chance at happiness and may force the children to become privy to the parent's grim outlook on life--a kind of misery loves company dynamic. (my note - they HATE our happiness. My doctor, and the LGAT he tried to suck me into, try to persuade clients that they don't know just how miserable their lives are. Many alternative practitioners use this underlying unhappiness as the "hidden cause" for illness).

So the identity and emotional life of the perp get transferred into the targeted victim and takes over the victims inner life. IF you're a child, you dont feel free to explore life on your own terms. You feel your own energy and happiness are taking something away from your parents. Roseman noted that some perps get a sense of immortality, or at least a sense of mastery (the vampire) by taking over the inner lives of their victims and (to quote the abstract) 'have (the perp's) representation emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning. '

Now...doesnt this sound exactly like an LGAT's agenda--'emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning.' The set up is a socially engineered assault/disorientation that punctures boundaries and fosters injection of the LGATs' "representation" so that it then takes over and runs the targets inner life for them--and sets up a conflict between true self and the foreign and predatory material injected by the LGAT. (my note - we both have had experience with either gurus or LGATs, but this injection applies to abusers in general - they become part of your internal workings).

But Rosenman's article describes another part of the process--the way perpetrators use thier pathos, their woundedness, to feel entitled to leech from others---and use their pathos to charm their victims into parenting them--and shame thier victims to ignore their own valid revulsion at being leeched from. When someone is pathetic, its hard to face that they are dangerous and using pathos as a cloaking device.

The tip off when perpetrators abuse others this is that:

*Only the perpetrator's childhood pathos and suffering gets respect.

*The perpetrators adult agency in continuing the legacy of abuse--is ignored, trivialied--or given a spiritual rationalization.

*The perpetrators adult agency is foisted onto the victim.

***And the shattered powerless victim (often groomed and pre-selected by the perp because he or she is vulnerable, is conned into parenting and nurturing the wounded child in the perp while the adult voice of the perp cons the victim into feeling responsible for the perps actions. The victim feels powerlesss and craves a sense of agency, so may accept the perpetrators definition of agency---"You made it happen. You made your own abuse." Its only abuse because you CALL it abuse.
And a false sense of agency in feeling parental toward the the poin

***The victim is conned a sense of false empowerment by parenting the perpetrator.

The predation being done in in the present moment is denied. The experience of the victim suffering in the present moment is given no respect whatsoever."

Stamp out rape. Say yes.

As I wrote elsewhere:

In New Age and Dharma Lite circles, there is a phobia against honest, frank speech.
And it may be that people who allow themselves to be emotionally spayed or neutered may at an unconscious level get off on following a leader or guru with anger management problems, because the leader gets to indulge the anger and other behavior forbidden to the followers.

One also sees this where a guru or leader milks his or her sufferings for pathos, and monopolizes compassion, while the followers are forbidden to see their own pain as equally valid.

The followers care for the guru while failing to give a damn about their own well being and fail to give a damn for the well being of each other.

All compassion is monopolized by the leader, while denied to the followers.

The leader becomes an insatiable black hole, absorbing all the emotional energy and vitality of the group. The leader is allowed to be angry. The leader is allowed to be cared for. The leader's sufferings (even when its just something that can be remedied by surgery) is exaggerated as drastic.

The followers are forbidden anger, forbidden care when suffering, told to 'turn it around' when they feel perturbed, forbidden to defend themselves or see thier own perspective as valid.

Only the leader's perspective is valid. Only the leader's experiences and emotions are real.

But from Janaki's account, the leader never has to turn it around.

A guru who is greedy and nasty can become a emtional surrogate of sorts, carrying and acting out impulses and emotions forbidden to the followers.

In Janaki's case, she mentions being in some Indian gurus ashram at age 14, then she follows Muktananda, then gets involved with BK.

That is a very very long time to be in guru-land. That very likely meant she was socialized to disown emotional boundaries early on and then rationalize this disowning of valid anger and emotional boundaries under the guise of spiritual rationalization.

The poison of an LGAT or toxic guru is that you think you are fully autonomous when in fact the toxic introject of the forum leader has been downloaded into a subconscious part of yourself and is working you as a puppet so as to defend the LGAT, disrupt dissent by trolling, or by earning money and running PR.

Stanely Rosenman--has spent a lot of time counseling and writing about the issues faced by survivors of the Nazi holocaust but also the impact the parental trauma has had upon children and even grandchildren of those who survived.

Dr Rosenman has not 'lost the moon'


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Re: Could tantric meditation on a guru permit boundary invasion?
Date: January 29, 2021 04:54PM

Hello, As i was seeking for my own page -abuse by a "lama" (who) named (himself) "Ven Lama Dondrup Dorje"- i saw this question topic, and i want to respond to this question directly.

The answer is YES!

And here what is stated here:
"Assaultive Projective Identification and the Plundering of the Victim's Identity"

EXACTLY this! I am completely experiencing this myself.
I mean, maybe not by itself, but it can be USED this way!
The lama can ABUSE his "authority" -which he "gained" BY YOUR AGREEMENT- to molest the mind/Identity of the one targeted.

My "lama" got very angry with me and has been assaulting me ever since.
I totally feel how he attacks on "my spots" (some of his monks assist him in this character-assasination) which gives them TOTAL EXTACY as "they are the ones doing it" - assaulting my painspots which give THEM pleasure, and supposed to take away my suffering. Which is not really actually...

It is just a disgusting feeling of energy-invasions, done by jealous people who actually are jealous (this lama himself) of my strong capacity of self-healing and self-love and worth....

It has become appearant to me that this "lama" is totally and completely motivated by his own lack of self-worth and utter frustration about it...
When you would see his picture, if you look well, you can totally read this from his face: a deeply pessimistic anger and fatalistic view that he is grudgingly holding on to.

And heUSES others as he so-called is "healing them", for his own increase of self-worth.

And it is actually much worse than that. He even INITIATES his whole teaching on this basis. So from scratch, you'll be brainwashed so as to be self-hating and thus unloving to yourself, his focus is to DENY you to make you deny yourself. All teaching is fear-instilled, all based on generating fear in the mind of the other -which is a great, if not the greatest way to feast energy from others.

And AT SOME POINT will he play the heroe and COMPLETE sanctimonious saviour that will tell you to be a friend to yourself.... after months -if not YEARS- of STRAGETIC psycological manipulation.

Its all based on robbery of self-power. Which is a phrase i actually heard him mention in one of his... (STOLEN) "teachings"....

He said "By self-power"? ,,, cannot do it.
And what did i do? I DID IT. By self-power?, and BY SELF-POWER ALONE!...

This than, is than "skillfully" identified as ego.


I would like to suggest to make an Investigation form for this kind of abuse.
Almost by dreaming could i set up a list of questions which WILL identify this kind of abuse!

Let me know if there is an interest into this, than it can slowly evolve...
For it literally comes bit by bit. The informations just pop up from the subconscious memories.... I have loads and loads of information about this, and i actually cannot manage it properly. Because IM NOT OUT OF TRAUMA!!! Yet..

But i know this will serve MANY MANY people, and leave a lot of people disillusionalised of outer heroes....

Which pretend that you should and have to be, like sticky glue, be allways dependant on the guru (and thus allways be the little kid while you are full-grown........)

This ofcourse will be identified as Western ego and what not... Ingratitude?
And so forth... For which you will burn in hell for many eons ofcourse...
I hope they did not forgot to mention this to you (lol)

Anyway, i hope this is a bit of help and answer to the question.

I say YES!!!... This is totally my experience.
And i TOTALLY aware of how my lama" try to completely reverse, my victimhood into his power. How he completely try to reverse, my self-power into so-called being helped and aided by them, so as i have to be forever grateful and what not... ==> And THUS be ACTUALLY DIS-EMPOWERED, whjile pretending themselves to be empowering me...

Its quite a funny thing but actually not funny....
It is ONLY funny to the PERPATRATORS of this rediculous practices....

YES there is true and real properly intended practices that Buddhists can do to help others.... If they cannot help themselves.
But there are BOUNDARIES, exactly as stated in this topic
Which some just tend to completely disrespect.

And parasitically "offer themselves" for your healing, but in fact they completely robb you of identity and self-power, thus make you LESS powerful, which NEVER can be the way as it was INTENDED by the Buddha's.

IF ever they gave this practices.... Buddha is symbol for complete Integrity.
Anyone who acts in opposition to that, or not in accordance to it, is by definition a complete ripoff and shame to it.

And as you may understand already, is motivated NOT by Buddha's Ideals!
Which is total Integrity.

If you ask me, this ugly kind of people should be WHIPPED! For shaming the Buddha and perverting the TRUE teachings and intentions of what is Identified as completely pure beings of diamond (perfect-ed) Integrity.

It should not be tolerated. However it is not the way to set up policegroups to put punishment on this kind of people. All in perspective.

There SHOULD BE groups that investigate the integrity and true intention of this kind of individuals and cults...

As Buddha would say "use your own judgement"...

Greatings, and wish you quick realisation and if needed recovery. I havent read any further than the 2 phrases which i mentioned at the start of my response. For i completely understand the meaning of it.

There are MANY MANY ways of realising that which is to be realised....
And what i have actually concluded, a multiple of times already, is that i am actually my own guru...

The way i came to "higer///deeper" realisations of the Buddhist thing, -which in my case was a complete abuse of the real Buddhist teaching-, was to recognise whom i have allways been....

Which is crazy if you think of it. From realising whom i have allways been, and how i have allways conducted my life, i understood this that i... had all the answers already... And have been doing the Dharma all my life.. Naturally.

This angry jealous lama decided to destroy me. And more cunningly, to "help me" destroy myself...

It is very hard for me to understand (and accept), that this kind of individuals truely exist... but as you see they do.

Pathetic individuals truely exist. Those who CLAIM harmony but are much disharmonious with others themselves in their aggressive endeavor they seek to stress on others, which they call their students and children.... from some kind of distorted attachment.

Wishing you fast recovery.
(all im saying is from my own experience, i have no clue about whom this is, so i have no single accusation against anyone. But this is my experience, and what I have come to understand - which have MASSIVELY discouraged my inclination to Buddhism. In spite of having met true authentic pure loving teachers whic htruely give freely, and allow you to keep your own freedom. For YOUR life is meant to be YOURS, and they understand that and respect it.

Those who do not respect this are nothing like teachers. They got it all wrong.

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Re: Could tantric meditation on a guru permit boundary invasion?
Posted by: facet ()
Date: January 29, 2021 10:01PM

Could this carry risks of boundary puncture and identity disruption - and make a person vulnerable to grooming by a predator in guru robes?

Big resounding Yes !

It may not be well proven in researched yet but will share from my own personal research observations, is that the internalisation is directly related to the neuropathology of the human brain.. if one lets ones self go enough identity wise and as the above poster states, this in many cases (and unless usably aparent already) is initiated by using existing hatred and disgust towards ones self , and initiating a new one (sex or certain sex act is bad, food is bad, choices bad, having children bad, thoughts bad, unclean, etc) to be repulsed by ones own nature enough that the throwing away occurs.. and the neuropathology of the leading person is then gradually mimicked in the brain.

So, brain wiring following brain wiring where our own brain wiring is not currently being decided by ourselves.

It’s not magic it’s just nature.

Controlling people manage much of what they do by these means, it is akin to parasitic nature as the above poster states.

Luckily, neuroplasticity can be changed for ourselves it would just take a lot of will on the part of the controlled to get out, or the grace that reality changes in some way to allow the space.

Brain chemistry deep into the situation will not easily allow exit.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2021 10:03PM by facet.

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Re: Could tantric meditation on a guru permit boundary invasion?
Date: January 31, 2021 10:47PM

What Facet is saying makes total sense.
As this is what i have been experiencing.

I feel how i have been robbed from my own identity, sweet self-nature.
And became more like a monstrous type of person :S

ITs very strange and hard to explain, but what i am totally sure of, is that many areas of hurt within me have been assaulted. This was a revenge assault by the collective of my past teacher and his most close group.. Witchcraft i would say.

For safety purposes, it may be better not to speak of the experience and "how its done", for its not easy to understand.

One should SEE what is really happening, that would most likely give a more appropriate discription.

But what i can tell, is that they want me NOT to be peaceful, they want me NOT to be/reside in my inner peace, and SEEK to TRAPP me in opposite(s)...

For example, winning and losing (in competition), and the tension and stress that comes with it... (over a long period of time without resolving the mental activity). There IS most often a fear involved in competition.
From having sense of reality and possibility. This is where the TRICK lies for causing stress to someone who engages in competition.

This teacher i had is VERY VERY much punishing. Rediculously repetitve in it and actually secretly it seems to me that he is very jealous as well....

For he engaged in long-term character assasination and afterwards trapped me by 4 year long consistent image-manipulation to do with that and other stuff...
Why also other stuff?AT THE SAME TIME! ... Because they know i'm supposed to be " very" skillful... And want to punish me as much as they can, as long as they can. Why multiple attack at once? Because of group-effort...
The teacher was angry about my brightness (smart) and i think very jealous at previous accomplishment.

Thus far have i experienced lot of " soul-loss", AUTHENTIC SOUL-loss.
Which hadnt much to do with (what i learned from) him actually.
BUT due to some of his practices it allowed me to blossom these qualities within me..

Anyway, i'd like to mention as well that what you say about using self-hatred and self-disgust, TOTALLY CORRECT!

This guy even talked to me in a blaming way, that i had " no self-love" ....
Which was a result of his manipulation though. But i actually learned very deep self-love. This was ACUTALLY what i was practicing while i was in his Centre and he got me all depressed with his consistent targeting manipulation...

MANY MANY SPELLS been hexed upon me with his evil intended, choice and use of words.... I felt this very deeply. And im sure this gives him a little boner..
It give him a little boner everytime every day he succeeds in keeping me trapped and unrecovered...

It seems to be totally HIS MAIN GOAL IN LIFE nowadays!! Its utter rediculous.

HEy, i gtg fast now, i have an appointment.

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Re: Could tantric meditation on a guru permit boundary invasion?
Posted by: facet ()
Date: February 01, 2021 03:10AM

You describe the vast majority of people who are into these things.

The majority have a desperate need for control, and are high manipulators, it is just that it is often not realised until we’re in trouble.

Remember, it’s not magic, it’s just nature. They behave badly to create the circumstances and call it magical power, power over others, but it is false, abuse is not power. It’s just abuse.

Spreading false rumours about a person is one of the no.1 ways people try to puff themselves up with having some powerful magic ability to harm others, it is even hidden agenda in those who make it a big deal to talk about concept of karma. It works to keep people trapped in fear.

Our own neuropathology is always there, it is the strongest over anything, so luckily no “soul” or person is ever lost. It feels this way only due to the neuro mimicry issue mentioned before. The mimicry is not true, so it cannot be permanent.

Focusing on ones own self habits before knowing the controller and instilling those whilst creating your own new ones (healthy ones) is a way out.

Anonymous study -

A : Woman in her mid 60’s, grey hair, short stature, unfriendly in her physical approach with a special effort toward false friendliness via words and feigned use of emotion. Is quick to tell others upon meeting them that she is a “witch”. This serves her highly controlling nature where she prefers people do her will as she believes that only her way to do things is the right way. Everyone else is at a fault and imperfect. Others who do not do her bidding (not able to be controlled) are “bullies” in her mind, and become objects of hatred where the projection of her “bullies” turns into vile, wild, and untrue rumours spread in order to cause them social issues, eventual distress, and that often leading to illness. The “witch” classifies this behaviour as her “magic” power, and uses it to back up her claims with others not yet targeted, when in fact it is only the poor behaviour involved that is the catalyst.

It is later found that in reality, the lady presenting has a diagnosis of Pure OCD and a long history of antisocial behaviour, greatly struggling with forming stable abuse free relationships in her life, and greatly struggling to settle in any home as she has been frequently moved on for her own safety, as officials who do not know of her behaviour and disbelieve victims, take her claims of “bullies” and the stories that accompany the claim quite seriously.

It’s not magic :-).

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2021 03:22AM by facet.

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Re: Could tantric meditation on a guru permit boundary invasion?
Posted by: facet ()
Date: February 01, 2021 03:45AM

Here’s another example:

Man, in his late 50’s, split from his wife and estranged from her and their two children. Presents as friendly though has an exceptionally aggressive undertone, inability to accept and therefore process anger. Is now running a “spiritual” workshop where he presents many YouTube conspiracy theories to attendees and urges them to repeat the spiritual workshop as it is a form of protection and renders the attendee indestructible. One of the attendees is always picked out as a “nuisance” of the group, even though they are not, and attempts are made to bring the person down with belittling comments in front of all of the group, whilst not fully going there, but displaying his edge of anger toward them.

The man charges $100 for the first attendance, but because attendees are returning they then receive a very special price of $80 instead. Attendees are repeatedly told that they are maintaining their protection and imperviousness to the topic by repeat attendance.

In reality, the man is officially diagnosed with depressive disorder after his wife left, both she and the children becoming estranged due to his ongoing engagement with and undertaking of conspiracy theory beliefs which was freaking them out and taking up 99% of his time alone. The mother wishing to protect her children as well as reengage in a healthier outlook. The man had lost his job due to his lack of interest in it over the conspiracies, and now lives in his vehicle, his only income is that of the workshop he urged others to frequently attend after preying on their fears connected to the conspiracy materials that he had shown them on YouTube.

The attendee picked out as a “nuisance”
and as receiver of the edge of anger is done intentionally in order to socially control the rest of the group into complying with what he is saying, as it would be highly uncomfortable to be picked out as the “nuisance”, all others largely comply to avoid.

Again, not magic.. just piss poor behaviour and treatment of others :-)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2021 03:47AM by facet.

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