anyone know about these guys?

I went to a lecture long ago.....it was weird and they tried to recruit me as i may have been the only " outsider' there.......!!!!!

there were maybe 5 people there !!!! in a big city......the ad said
someone will talk about the Ramsurat Kumar lineage !!!! and it was a lee lozowick student............................and they tried to recruit me !!

Lozowick claimed to have spontaneously enlightened while teaching Silva Mind Control. He supposedly got validated for his enlightenment by some guru dude named Ramsuratkumar (sometimes the name is Ramsurat kumar). He claimed to be a Baul guru and Lozowick went on to claim and present himself as a Baul.

Ramsuratkumar had his ashram in the far southern region of India, not in Bengal, where the Bauls originated and still reside. Ramsuratkumar ran his ashram in the typical male authoritarian manner, with traditional hierarchical social behavior -- unlike the Bauls.


Lozowick died some time last year 2010. Years ago I attended LL lecture and disliked his asshole behavior so very much that I left the room. I dont give a rats ass if the guy was enlightened, he behaved like a creep and appeared to be using classic tried and true confusion trance technique. Blech.

Bauls are based in Bengal region of India. They combine methods from Sufism and Hindu bhakti practice. They reject conventional social structure and taboos and most descriptions of them mention they practice tantric sex with long term partners. Because of their taboo breaking, Bauls are marginal figures. Their songs are filled with subtle, coded language.

The Bauls, being poor, disenfranchised, and on society's margins were in no position to shut down or protest a brash, opportunistic American brute appropriating their name into a self serving legitimation narrative.

This is similar to the predicament of Native Americans having their names and rituals stolen and monetized by hustlers.

To get an idea of who the Bauls are, there is a blog dedicated to respecting them as culture bearers.

[bauliana.blogspot.com]

And a book, Seeking Bauls of Bengal by Jeanne Openshaw

[www.cambridge.org]

[books.google.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2023 01:49AM by corboy.

A story about Ramsuratkumar

[groups.google.com]

----------------------------

Vannakam,


The story has a striking resemblance with a real life story(I have a
strong feeling that the crux of the story is essentially lifted from
this one). Some of the netters may know him and some of them may
be his devotee too. If my article is going to hurt in any way then I
I am sorry.


The guy I am reffering to is Yogi Ramsuratkumar and he was bestowed with
a sobriquet "vissiri samiar".The delineation of the story's swami fits
our Yogi. He too went around streets in ragged vesture, eats with dogs
and inhales nicotine.


I am not sure when and how he was acclaimed as a great saint but sure
do have what he is like. His devotees range from intellectuals to businessmen
to scientists to musicians. To name a few, Writer Balakumaran, Ex VC of
Pondicherry University Venkatasubramanian , Illaraja and Nutrine & co
chairman Reddy(He has an MS in chemical engg from stanford).


Yogi's gurus are three persons(now they are called as Three great fathers
or the trinity factor, lifted straight from Christian philosophy; btw,
somebody was pointing out that Jesus was Son of God and not God, Incidentally,
Jesus, his father and the holy spirit are all the same and this is what
they refer as trinity factor). I forget two of them but the third one is
the great Ramana Maharishi.


Our Yogi got a house for himself, thanks largely to a congressman who promply
used his name in the following election with a full page ad. He was later
banished from entering Yogi's house by Yogi as a form of castigation.
Ofcourse, he was allowed inside again after he sat through the entire day
in front of the house and on the street.


Coming to my experience, I was introduced to him by my friend who happens
to be a self proclaimed sadhu and runs a spritual organization. His works
and organization have already been introduced in the net by another netter.
As I was quite young(I was in my final year B.E) and with bubbling enthusiasm,
I proposed the idea of starting a Youth association in his name(this I did
without even meeting him ). So, The next day I went to Thiruvanmallai with
my friend to meet him and ask permission to start an association on his
name. Legend:-) has it that he never gives any kind of laxity to use
his name for any purpose.


Yes, He appeared just like a sage as he had flowing beard and lenghty shag
with a pile of clothes on him. There were many others getting his darshan,
He speaks only in English and he is quite fluent in it(later inquiry revealed
that he was an engineer from Rajasthan). He allows visitors only after
9.00 am , by that time he peruses 'THE HINDU' and allset for devotees.
He talks about sports, politics and science and NOTHING MORE. He sometimes
chants "ram ram jai ram jai jai ram" and everyone should follow suit.
After 45 minutes, slowly my friend egged me to propose the idea. lo and
behold, he accepted and gave his blessings. You guessed it right, I was
considered now as a hero in the wake of my achievement??. We promptly started
this by inviting some of his American disciples(15 persons came from US and
they have there own community called as Hohm ('la Koresh) in Arizona). Please
don't ask me how they became his devotee. Incidentally, I was the founder
Genreral Sec and the president was the then HOD of Vivekananda college
Philosophy dept. As a Gen Sec, I had to give a speech and did that by
blabbering something from Bhagavat Gita and something from Bible which I
promptly took from some book and infact gave an explanation to my dress(I was
wearing a Jeans and a T-shirt) such as "Outward appearance is not important
but your inward journey is essential for any spritual life". After the meeting
even some of elderly people started calling me swami and treated me with
respect. I was embarrased.


People used to say that a dove came out of Yogi's picture and many such
humbuck. Slowly, reality dawned on me that all such things were obviously to
make fast bucks as I was a witness to many funds from prominent personalities.
I slowly came of this never raised anything since there was nothing illegal
which went on except exploitation of innocent and rich devotees. Today,
the association is thriving and it has branched into many.


I invite any experiences or discussions on this topic. Btw, Ramanamaharishi
is supposed to be a silent sage but do anybody know how he became so popular
and where in the world from those teachings came into being
------------------------------------------------------------

From an encyclopedia of New Age beliefs

[books.google.com]

"Note also a few descriptions of self-styled gurus who claim enlightenment as given in the Yoga Journal.

...Lee Lozowick may choose to use methods that are arbitrary, foolish, unjust, contradictory and irresponsible, since "all his actions are God-motivated" and as such, any behavior is potentially appropriate for a God-man" (1354:34)

If a researcher wants to get some idea of the complexity of Baul culture, reading the study,Seeking Bauls of Bengal by Jeanne Openshaw is a must.

It is of the utmost difficult even to speak of 'the Bauls' or of 'Bauls' because this is a culture in which the participants sought, in class conscious and caste-conscious India, to elude, evade, and escape any static name or definition. Most radically, Bauls appeared to evade and subvert even the traditional hierarchical relationship between guru and disciple--which runs against the domineering and authoritarian model cultivated by Lee Lozowick.

Openshaw requires the reader to follow her on trust as she begins with a complex cultural and linguistic analysis, seeking to demonstrate how fluid Baul identity has been, and that Bauls have been referred to again and again as 'the Other'. In a part of the world that is gridlocked by clan, caste, and sectarian catagories, Bauls sought to evade and elude classification.

They were known as musicians, usually on a single stringed instrument, and known to practice sexual tantra and to honor the Feminine above the Masculine.

But a relationship in which the role of guru is rigidly exercised over and above a submissive set of devotees, a relationship in which the guru role and guru behavior is privliged as unquestionable--that is a rigidity that Openshaw did not find at all to be characteristic of Bauls.

Many Bauls are honored these days as culture bearers in Bengal and this role endangers the freedomm and fluidity of their role.

THe Bauls Openshaw studied were Bengali and she noted that through the effort of gentry such as Rabindranath Tagore, Bauls, once seen as suspicious characters came to be honored as authentic culture bearers and all sorts of idealizing notions were projected onto them.

Hindus and Muslims could both become Bauls.

It is therefore strange that Ramsurat Kumar is referred to as Rajasthani and as having permitted supporters to place him in an ashram with appearances and devotions.

Far north in Bengal, Openshaw visited the remains of an ashram that had belonged to a famous/notorious Baul who had run off with another man's wife--the kind of subversive and transgressive behavior characteristic of Bauls. There were few remains of the ashram-it was mostly waste ground.

The guru and his wife suffered the consequences--they didnt make disciples suffer. They paid the penalty, being honored by some but held in disrepute by very many others, and put up with it.

One Baul told Oppenshaw that just as a boat leaves a brief ripple in the river which soon vanishes, such is the life of a Baul--to leave no trace after one passes. To create statues and biographies would not be consonent.

The true holy lunatics bear the consequences themselves. They sit up in a position of privilege and dump misery on others.

They bear their own.

Whoever wrote this appears to have regarded Lozowick as a Fourth Way teacher. This visit lists visits to sites important to Gurdjieff, and nothing is said about anything of interest to a Hindu--despite Lozowick having made such a big fuss about being validated by Ramsuratkumar.

[sonic.net]

PARIS JOURNAL - Part 1

by Stuart Goodnick

Evening 5/20/96

A long day. We flew from San Francisco to Paris this morning. Arrived at ten. Mr. Lee [note: Lee Lozowick, founder and director of HOHM Community, Prescott, AZ] and a student of his, Michele, met us at the airport. All timing was perfect. He had arranged accommodations for us in an extra bedroom at the third floor apartment of the mother of a friend of his school. My first impressions of Paris began with tubes and tunnels. After we got off the plane, we went along a variety of escalators in the Charles de Gaulle Airport that featured humps and curves and fed through glass and plastic tubes.

After we met up with Mr. Lee and Michele, we hopped in a elevator, popped out into a parking garage, crammed into a motor car, and drove into the day. Sky sun clouds cars green wet buildings trees movement direction confusion signs cars cars. But every now and again a site comes into view. And then as we get closer to the center of town more and more fantastic structures come into view. We see Sacre Coeur, a bright white set of missile shaped cathedrals stationed on a distant hill, and glimpses of the Eiffel Tower tease me as freeway gives way to Rue.

Mr. Lee is driving. He is the center of so much to so many seekers. A modern day spiritual master for whom the sacred and the ordinary blend into one. All moments are about being. Today he is driving his friends around Paris. We have a day to kill before our rooms become available at 7pm. So where to start? We begin by looking for parking. We decide to stroll the park beneath the Eiffel Tower. But before we can do that we must park our car. We drive onto the Etoille and around L’Arc de Triumph. As I gawked at the arch, three vehicles nearly slammed into our side. Mr. Lee just chuckled lightly and calmly confers with Michele, back seated, who knows the city. Driving in the city of Paris is maddening: aggressive drivers, thin streets, no lanes, etc. Mr. Lee likened the French driving to the attitude, "I’m here, so fuckin’ deal with it."

I was surprised that I never saw an accident, or a stop light for that matter, though I was assured that they are around. What impressed me most was Mr. Lee’s ability to drive, to carry on a conversation with Robert [note: Robert Daniel Ennis, founder and director of Tayu Meditation Center] in the front seat, and to catch soft spoken bits of directions from Michele sitting and watching in the back seat. Never once did he get upset, although once he did exclaim slightly as a large truck almost crushed us against a line of moving cars. But the insanity was all very relaxing. Robert, Rob [note: Rob Schmidt from Tayu Meditation Center], and I were all jet lagged so we certainly provided the requisite levels of stress. New impressions all around. There simply wasn’t much time left over for inner considering.

We attempted to find parking a couple of times before settling on a "payant" street spot. We landed in the Trocadero near the Musee de l’Homme. We walked out onto a large concrete and stone tiled promenade lined with statues of various classical figures. Peppering the promenade were vendors selling trinkets: little Eiffel Towers, busts of Napoleon, necklaces, wind-up flying plastic birds. The vendors seemed to represent ethnicities of all the major former French colonies. Most striking of all, of course, was the Eiffel Tower looming in the immediate distance. I recall once arguing with a school mate in the 4th grade about the reality of flying saucers. I was certain at the time that they did exist while my school mate was quite positive they did not. He argued along the lines that seeing was believing. I argued back that he had never seen the Eiffel Tower but he believed that it existed, etc. etc. We never resolved our argument , but the Eiffel Tower became for me a symbol of faith, knowledge, verification, and trust.

Here it was. Large, imposing, a lot of steel. We wound our way down to its base and I stood under it at the geometric middle to look up and see the vast mass supported above me. Mr. Lee noted that the first time he visited the Tower, he walked all the way up to the top. I longed to perform a similar feat of bravado, but the propriety of the moment precluded it. That urge did find refinement and resonance with inner considerings about whether I was being held back in my Work because of my current life situation. Fortunately I was able to let the bubble go and allow it to float away on the breeze carrying a wave a pigeons skyward.

Later in the day we made our way to the Cafe de le Paix where Gurdjieff liked to hang out. It sits across the street from the old Paris Opera House (Nationale Institute de Musique), and it has been in operation since 1850. We took a table on the street although we discussed that Gurdjieff would probably have taken a table inside which would be more conducive for intimate discussion. Our waiter was a stout, bald, French man wearing the pride of his culture, a black vest, and a white apron. I had a double espresso, Robert a tea, Mr. Lee a decaf espresso, Michelle a cappuccino, and Rob a mocha supreme. Gurdjieff sat here. Was it as stylized then. The place seemed a little gaudy for our tastes. Certainly expensive. Traffic whizzed by. We sat.

Mr. Lee comments on how he enjoys watching the flow. Our conversation turns to spiritual teachers and groups. We (primarily Mr. Lee and Robert) discuss Andrew Cohen, Arnaud Desjardin, students, relationships to the school, and the French spiritual student. The French are not as "New Age" jaded as the Americans. They still retain an innocent enthusiasm that many Americans have exchanged for a sort of "been there, done that" attitude. As we sat and watched the world expand and contract around us, I was reminded of a parable I had once written about a student talking to Mr. G. in a Paris cafe. My own observations from that afternoon may not have amounted to more than the scraps of paper the student held in the story, but my impressions from that moment still persist.

We discussed trying to get reseated inside to bring us closer to the Gurdjieff experience. The waiter would have none of it. He explained in animated French that there is a different bar tender inside, and that waiters cannot be expected to work in conditions where people are always moving between seats, etc. etc. etc. By this time in the day, our jet lag was acute, my nose was flowing freely from airline allergies, and we were becoming hungry. I suddenly realized what Work my ordinary self was enduring, and yet I felt acutely awake. I realized that this is Work. Exhausting the machine so that all that is left is being. Loud cars, honking and fuming, stuffy waiters, people crowding past each other like hive animals, sun, clouds, spring rain, and sitting. Sitting at two little round tables watching the world and my inner state go by.

Sitting with spiritual teachers at the Cafe de le Paix is the ultimate reminding factor. Being with my own teacher is practice enough because we know each other so well, but spending time with Mr. Lee is particularly stressful for my little self. When I am clear, I can simply be with him and that is that. If I consider, then I have started to feel like I need some sort of feedback from him to tell me how wonderful I am. And if I do not get this feedback, then my little self has started to worry what he thinks of me. I have wanted to be on my best behavior so he will think well of me, and yet he is one who doesn’t think of me at all. No act I do will change who I am at this time. And it will certainly not change Mr. Lee’s impression. He does what is necessary in the moment. Telling me how wonderful I am is the wrong thing to do because that is food for the little self.

A teacher is very much like space itself. A teacher sees and permits all manifestations without judgment or comment. One simply exists in his or her presence. If the teacher is your teacher then they can interact with you in such a way that the little self will get upset and you have the opportunity to observe that. And what you observe is not the outer shell of response, the Android part, but the hiding, contracting, essential part. The part of me that wants to be told how wonderful I am obviously is masking my inner shyness cramp that thinks the world cannot like me. So I got to practice just being and not worrying about it. Sitting at the Café then was an exercise in being.

Robert and Mr. Lee talked more about teachers, students, our visit tomorrow to see a Sufi teacher. I talked a little, but I was mostly silent. I was silent sort of like one gets silent after smoking dope. Everything was accentuated, everything intense. I had little to say. The only voices that wanted out were ones that just had things to prove.

We eventually made our way to dinner at a Chinese restaurant. The food was good and they had hot peppers on the table. Over dinner we talked more about getting students and people at talks to hold on to the openings that they allow to be created. I related how at talks and workshops, people get opened up and it is as if a hole gets ripped into space and a cross-dimensional opening persists for a while. What people do not realize is that this rip becomes smaller with time and eventually disappears. You have to jump through while the gateway is open.

After dinner we made our way to our apartment for the night. We are in the study of a third floor apartment near the arch. Sleep was easy this first night.

[www.aarweb.org]

22-30


Helen Crovetto, Azusa, CA
From Tiruvannamalai to Prescott and Bozeman: The Western Baul Lineage

The Western Bauls follow an iconoclastic form of Tantrism that incorporates many of the practices associated with both the medieval Bauls of Bengal and contemporary Baul communities in India. The guru-parampara runs from Yogi Ramsurat Kumar, to Lee Khepa Baul, to Purna Steinitz; with ashrams in Tiruvannamalai (India), Prescott, Arizona and Bozeman, Montana respectively. This paper introduces their lineage, beliefs, esoteric rites and sexual sadhana. Synchronous with the Baul manner, Lee and his disciples perform their songs in one of several Bands. The lineage members form a tight-knit community. This is a case in which the flow of spiritual ideas and practices has gone from East to West; experiencing some modification in the process, and yielding Western-style Bauls.

---Corboy note

Unless Lozowick's career as a bricoleur, his usage of Silva Mind Control, Gurdjieff material and his inclusion of a tie with Ramsuratkumar and claiming affiliation with Bengali Bauls are considered in toto, there will be no way to get a full assessment.

Most focus just on Lozowick's early link with Hilda Charlton, skill in Silva Mind Control, or focus exclusively on his being a Fourth Way teacher (see essay above), or only on his claim to be in the lineage of Ramsuratkumar and his claim to be a Baul.

(vide Yoga Journal article)

[books.google.com]

Lozowick used modalties from a vast menu. All of this has to be considered if one is trying to make sense of his methods.

The term again is bricolage--using an improvised array of material from many different sources. The result can be confusion.

Whether people felt they benefitted is a matter where time will tell.

The more confusing the teacher, the longer it takes to sort this out.

What was quoted by Corboy about Yogi Ramsuratkumar is very strange and the Tamil person who wrote this is obviously a spiritual ignorant. But let's go to the topic, which is Lee Lozowick. You will get a better picture of the guy when going there
[pages.intnet.mu]
You have this too : [pages.intnet.mu]
and more when following the links. Very interesting to know how this so-called "Baul" has created his own legend !

John B.:

Personal attacks directed against other members of this message is explicitly prohibited by the rules you agreed to before posting here.

Don't do it again.

How to be a perfect recruit in a high demand small group

Not just anyone can can walk in off the street and become an inner circle entourage member to a guru who is ferociously demanding.

You have to pass certain unspoken tests and show yourself willing to put up with stuff that many people would find terrifying, stressful or repugnant.

It is possible that the ability to look attractive and even the ability to radiate beauty while being treated like shit is a very important qualification for admission to the entourage of a nasty leader.

Or, for that matter, placating an abusive partner or spouse.

Someone who reacts to chronic stress by having their skin break out, developing repeated and disabling asthma and or frequent, disabling panic attacks would not last long as an enabler to a 'rude' guru.

Persons resilient enough to tolerate abuse and can function well despite being chronically treated like shit are actually in much greater danger of remaining for years in a situation that is destructive for them...and their true spiriutal integrity.

So resilience may not always be a blessing. It could be possible that entourage members keep going using drugs, and probably keep networks of local massage therapists in business by constantly seeking stress reduction, when the best thing would be to feel the stress full on--and get out.

Massage, acupuncture and spa treatment can be used to suppress insight just as tranquillers can.

IMO, a lack of resilience might be a blessing in disguise, because you wont last long with someone who can disorient you if you stick with them long term