landmark is the same est re incorporated to avoid the scandals and law suits around est. they are trying to become the motivation group for the business world now.

In the first couple of of years after Werner Erhard created est, he met the Karmapa in India -- and sponsored the Karmapa's first visit to the United States.

During this visit to India, Werner Erhard also visited Swami Muktananda at Ganeshpuri and also helped M come to the United States. M incorporated
Erhard's est methodology in the Siddha Yoga Intensives.(Corboy)

[www.google.com].

The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions -- James R Lewis 2004

[books.google.com]

"In the early 1970s Erhard traveled to Asia in search of spiritual leaders from whom he could learn.

He went to Ganeshpuri India, where he met Swami Muktananda. In Tibet he met His Holiness the Gwyala Karmapa, one of the chief religious leaders of Tibet. Erhard sponsored visits to America by both these gurus,


The Collected Works of Chogyam Trunpa: Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, Volume 3

page xxiv to page xxv.

[books.google.com]

"The interview itself covers a wide range of topics, including Rinpoche's view on EST and ecology. He is critical of Erhard Sensitivity Training, yet points out that Werner Erhard, its founder, is a "friend of ours".

"Participants in Erhard's training program attended especially EST sponsored Vajra Crown ceremonies conducted by His Holiness Karmapa in 1976, so there was some genuine interest there in Kagyu spirituality.
Trungpa Rinpoche was suspicious of Erhard's approach, but also, typically for him, saw the potential in what Erhard was doing.

More:

Chogyam Trungpa: His Life and Vision
By Fabrice Midal

The Creation of Shambhala Training 237 - 238

There is a historical paradox about the birth of Shambhala Training. Originally, the intention behind the progam was not to introduce the Shambhala teachings but instead to present the practice of meditation simply and directly to as many people as possible.

One of the key moments was the visit that Werner Erhard paid to Chogyam Trungpa in 1976 and the great impression he made. At the time, Werner Erhard, (who had changed his name from John Paul Rosenberg) was at the peak of his dazzling rise as the director of est (Erhard Seminars Training) a system of "group awareness training" that he had founded in 1971. (The organization still exists, now under the name of "The Forum") According to Erhard, people were unhappy because their minds had been incorrectly "programmed" by destructive conditioning. As a result of this discovery, he set up a system of training to help participants transform their own consciousness so as to allow them to get what they want out of life.The seminars he organized toward this end were extremely intense. Participants were locked in a room and not permitted to leave for the duration of the seminar. The aim was to make everyone take stock of themselves with complete honesty. At the end of the weekend, people reported feeling very different. Their defenses had been broken down. They had become more sensitive, more open, and a little closer to who they really were. Needless to say, est methods appeared to be quite forced.

Werner Erhard had arranged an audience with the Karmapa who encouraged him in his desire to help people and suggested he should meet Chogyam Trungpa. So with a few of his assistants, Werner Erhard traveled to the Rocky Mountain Dharma Center during a seminar given there in the summer of 1976. He arrived late for Chogyam Trungpa's talk, in a white limousine. After the talk, he was invited to the Rinpoche's residence ((near the site of what is now the Great Stupa of Dharmakaya, dedicated to Chogyam Trungpa's memory). Werner Erhard handed out Cuban cigars all around, which was a sign of great wealth at the time, given the US embargo. He was trying to make his presence felt.

A number of Rinpoche's students were also at the meeting. He had asked one of them, Karl Springer (then head of external affairs for Vajradatu) to pose a few questions to Erhard and sound him out. Meanwhile, Chogyam Trungpa observed in silence. During the visit, which lasted about three quarters of an hour, Werner Erhard explained that his work was like that of Chogyam Trungpa, except that he had discovered a quicker path to enlightenment!

Soon after his departure, Chogyam Trungpa said, "We could do better than that! We should get people who go to est, put them in a room, then just quite simply make them sit down until their discursive chattering dissolves."

The meeting with Werner Erhard evidently gave Chogyam Trungpa
the idea that it would be a good thing to make the basic practice and insights of meditation available to a wider audience. He realized there was a larger potential to address people who are involved in society and who are not willing to give up their families and professional lives. For many the Buddhist path might seem too demanding and alien to their culture. Its religious character and its ritualistic side might scare them and put them off...

"The atmosphere must be disciplined and structured as well as relaxed and welcoming. An aura of dignity and gentleness sets the tone for the Shambhala Training. Without it, no one would have the courage to undergo the experience...

(Different from est!)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2017 01:25AM by corboy.

For persons who want to investigate possible borrowings from Werner Erhard's
methods and then applied to Tibetan/Vajrayana Buddhism, here are some
places to start.

Think this is unlikely? Maybe it the Tibetans did not borrow anything from Werner Erhard.

But...Swami Muktananda did borrow from Werner Erhard. Remember, Werner visited Muktananda in India and then helped the guru get to the United States.

Readers, take a look at the descriptions given by many former Landmark subjects
describing the uncomfortable room arrangement.

What an ugly way to treat customers. Werner Erhard's customers trusted
him and his trainers. These customers had not been convicted and sentenced
for any crime.

Now, someone may say, 'They were free to leave".

Not quite. In that kind of social set up, you forget you can leave. Look up
Stanford Prison Experiment.

Two, Werner Erhard's customers paid hundreds of dollars to attend one of these events, and in many cases did it because they trusted endorsements from their trusted friends and partners.

Some participants on the CEI message board back in 2004 found
an article online by Drew Kopp for a class in rhetoric. Kopp's
article was entitled Invisible Bodies, the Disinherited, and the Production of Space in the Landmark Forum

One CEI participant wrote:

Quote

Manipulating the room's environment
Posted by: Concerned Oz
Date: May 06, 2004 03:44AM

HI GC,

The attached file, (hope it worked this time (cited Drew Kopp's essay -Corboy), is an indepth writeup of the Landmark room setup. Of interest to me was the extent Centre Management went to to make a door open and close silently to aviod distraction by the leader, supervisor and attendees. All door hinges were machine olied and striker plates and lock tongues were fastened with masking tape to deaden noise. - wow we..
Oz

Corboy note: Drew Kopp's essay is no longer available online.

Here is an article from the discussion ConcernedOZ participated in.

It gives a few quotations from this now vanished document.

Manipulating the room's environment
Posted by: corboy
Date: May 13, 2004 10:38AM

Thanks again to Concerned OZ for finding this!

[www.u.arizona.edu]

[www.u.arizona.edu]

Invisible Bodies, the Disinherited, and the Production of Space in the Landmark Forum by Drew Kopp

Kopp's 40 page paper is the mental equivalent of a triathlon--gruelling, but well worth it. At the end, he comments:

'I would contend that this is a fundamental inauthenticity of Landmark Education, to use its own term to describe this dynamic and Landmark lack of transparency of its operation.

'Landmark Education, in the form of any and all of its representatives, pretends to their customers, that participants can acquire this technology, its consequent powers, and then drop the tools that granted these powers at any given time in the future. For instance, the Course Leader, at the very end of the LF, will say,I take it all back, claiming that everything said in the course possesses absolutely nothing to believe in.

Yet, this is said against a background of materially enforced re-conceptualizations (the special room set up, the scripted social interactions-Corboy) that have inscribed participants into a social space the existence of which is completely tied up with continuing to participate with Landmark Education.

Thus, Landmark technology compels participants to inscribe themselves further into more extensive and elaborate social spaces the organization offers participants to inhabit. This is the Faustian relationship with Mephistopheles, wherein desires are granted, but only if the means used are promoted endlessly, ultimately gaining importance over the participants original aims. ]' (end of quote)


[forum.culteducation.com]

Werner Erhard training groups (Landmark Education, aka The Forum, est)

Room Arrangement - a vital ingredient

Quote

https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,4952,46346#msg-46346

Manipulating the room's environment
Posted by: Zorro
Date: September 18, 2007 04:57AM

When I helped to set the rooms for an ILP weekend they were totally anal about the chairs being aligned correctly and having the right number of chairs. We worked late into the night moving and arranging chairs. It bordered on the ridiculus. Especially because the people incharge couldn't even make up their mind on how it should be set up. They couldn't think for themselves. I kept asking....don't we have any notes on how this place is supposed to be set up?.....how did you do it the last time?....Their reply was no we don't have any. It's supposed to be this way. I was shocked :shock: because such a large so called professional organization didn't even know how a room was supposed to be set up.

Maybe it was a mind control tactic the people in charge we using on us drones?

Landmark is totally anal about having a room set up correctly. At each break the rooms are set up again for the students. They are anal right down to how paragraphs are written on a chalk board. I saw a guy spend hours writing a paragraph on a chalk board. Paying excruciating detail to how each letter was formed and the spacing between them. If something was wrong with how it was written, it was a big deal.

Manipulating the room's environment
Posted by: The Shadow
Date: September 18, 2007 08:41AM

I read Dr. Roxanne Mountford's essay on Landmark; "Invisible Bodies, the Disinherited, and the Production of Space in the Landmark Forum, which is quite long, but deals how managing the space of the room is actually very integral to part of the "indoctrination"... it is very purposeful, and in fact the "volunteers" have to use tape measures and masking tape to make sure that each chair is EXACTLY the same number of inches apart.

You are right, it is 'anal'. Have you ever lived with someone, or had a friend who needs EVERYTHING in EXACTLY the same place day in and day out., (we lovingly/laughingly call them 'control freaks') but I guess a clinician would call them an obsessive compulsive.

People who have to control other people, and who have to have their environment are usually people who have a lot of chaos in their heads, and the only way they can achieve the 'Illusion" of control is to control what is outside of them. Someone made a good point about the Leaders. I wonder when we will see them "meltdown", hopefully soon and all at once.

But having said all that, go to the link about Dr. Mountford and read her paper, it is very enlightening. (long, and kind of academic, but if you plow through it you will understand the impact of the way the room is set up).

I am trying to say a lot with not too many words, so this comment sounds a bit muddled.

'shad'

Quote

https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,41895,41967#msg-41967

Covert Persuasion [Unconscious Influence]
Posted by: SaneAgain
Date: July 22, 2007 12:47PM

An article I found very helpful when I first came to the board was this one:

[www.u.arizona.edu]

It describes the effect of the room setup in Landmark (same as in most lgats - to a T) and it really astounded me because I was totally unconscious of the effect of the physical room structure. I noticed it was a bit anal but I thought ah well, it takes all types. This article really illustrates how physical environments have an unconscious effect on the mind and emotions.

It has already been discussed on this board in several places, and is a bit of a heavy read, but I think its worth reviving in light of this topic.

The very fact that est, Landmark, Quest and no doubt most of the others copy the layout of chairs (measured to centimeters), position of pens on a table, etc shows how important it is to the manipulation.

Someone wrote:

Quote

https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,12279,12279#msg-12279

Quote

4. VERY IMPORTANT: Bring your own chair. Landmark has notoriously hard chairs. Bring along one of those fold up canvas chairs. On the breaks, take the chair with you, and move to another area when you return. There is no acceptable reason for you to be uncomfortable. If you bring your own chair, you can consistently choose to be on the end of one of the last rows. Also, an added bonus is that you are likely to inspire others to show up on subsequent days with their own chairs. Landmark wants a very controlled environment (Especially chairs.), they don’t like this control being disrupted, but they will accommodate you.

5. Bring a cooler full of food, and keep it in your car. The half hour breaks aren’t long enough to run out to a restaurant. Make your own sandwiches and bring your favorite fruits and vegetables. Eat things that will keep your energy up. You’ll need healthy foods to keep your critical thinking in gear.

6. At the beginning of The Forum, the leader may mention that “Everything I say up here, isn’t the truth.” Remember this, and take them at their word. Pay attention to these sorts of disclaimers. Essentially, they tell you outright that what they are telling you for the next few days…is crap. You can, at the very least, agree on that.

7. They give you homework at the breaks. Don’t do the homework. If by chance someone asks you why you didn’t do your homework, just say “Because I chose not to.” That is all you need.

Quote

s it possible to recognize your own "brainwashing&quot
Posted by: midonov123
Date: May 16, 2005 06:17AM

I asked my Introduction Leader and Seminar Leader wannabe ex-girlfriend (yes she is now officially my ex- for those who read my other posts) why Landmark is concentrated over 3 days fro, 9 am to midnight sitting on uncomfortable chairs in an uncomfortable room etc... that results in physical discomfort and sleep deprivation.

She answered very simply “because their defenses collapse” !!!

This confirms the Forum leader does it deliberately and knowingly, but she thinks it’s for their own good, so that the participant can get the message that will transform their life for the better. I insisted that if she cares for people, she should also look at the detrimental effects Landmark has on many people before enrolling more and more, but she objected aggressively and refused to listen to anything (this is not the first time). I told her firmly that I consider Landmark as a cult, and that I will not get trapped by their close system of logic and techniques. She kicked me out of her apartment after trying some more enrolling tricks on me that didn’t work.

The more I learn about all of this, the more I am outraged.

[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

Manipulating the room's environment
Posted by: corboy
Date: May 11, 2004 06:35AM

The Room Arrangement Deserves Our Close Attention

All of these are guesses, but are educated guesses based on material from persons who participated in Landmark.

Concerned OZ and kittypaw have found the URL for a paper written by Drew Kopp a former LEC volunteer who had set up rooms for many such events and who wrote a scholarly analysis of the special features of the LEC seminar room set up, and how social intereactions are scripted in very specific ways during the seminar.

Kopp's 40 page analysis, entitled 'Invisible Bodies, the Disinherited, and the Production of Space in the Landmark Forum maybe accessed here.


www.u.arizona.edu/~kopp/Finalmat3.doc

Many enthusiasts/publicists for LEC emphasize LEC's verbal content and philosophy and are convinced that these transformed them.

But Kopps data and line of reasoning invite us to speculate that focusing exclusively on LEC's verbal content may keep us from examining from something very important: what Kopp describes as the room set up.

With Drew Kopps material in mind, Look at what Hope has told us in one of the posts above in this thread:

''What I found uncomfortable were the chairs and the lack of space between them. I'm small, and the people on either side of me were big. When we all sat back, I had their elbows in front of me. In order for this not to happen, they would have had to lean forward or turn in their chairs. So it was pretty uncomfortable.'

Hope wrote:

'Some people timidly asked if the AC could be turned down and their requests were met with some nonsense about how the people who run the forum know what works for most people, how they cannot adjust the thermostat to meet everyone's needs, blah, blah, blah. Within 15 minutes, however, the AC was turned down and many sighed a big sigh of relief. The interruption of the sighing, however, brought on another lecture from the leader.'

Gaslighting -- setting you up for failure so the leader can yell at you

Two former Landmark subjects wrote:

Quote

https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,4737,5102#msg-5102

Landmark, Wachowski Brothers and The Matrix
Posted by: hossgal
Date: May 07, 2004 07:51AM

Thanks, Corboy and Oz, for your insights.

It is puzzling, my reaction to my LE experience. Here is my theory about it:

Friday night, before we broke for dinner, one of the assistants announced that the final evening session would start at 7:35 PM. It was 6:05 PM when she made this announcement. OK, so we knew we had 90 minutes to grab a bite. I agreed to drive with another attendee to a local resaurant. But first, this gal had to visit a friend in the front office. Now food is very important to me, and the opportunity to get the heck outa there was, too. But I digress...

We arrived back at the LE meeting room at 7:33. I checked. A few people trickled in behind us, but none of them arrived later than 7:35. Scott, the FL, tore the group a collective new a**hole for being "late". I was infuriated, but recognized this was a manipulation to control us. My dinner partner stood up to challenge Scott.

I mumbled, "don't bother, it's a set-up." She replied, "I know".

The funny thing was, several people sitting around me also stated they heard 7:35 as our start time, not 7:25, as Scott now claimed.

By the next day I was still steamed about the manipulation, but the same people who the night before had sworn they heard 7:35, were now telling me, "No, they told us to be back by 7:25. Really. That's what they said." They had become Pod People!

I couldn't believe anything Scott said after that. I took the exercises for what they were worth, found some value in dropping persistent complaints (rackets), that sort of thing. But I took everything I heard the rest of the weekend with a grain of salt.

Quote

https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,12279,12279#msg-12279

So you've been cajoled into attending The Landmark Forum...
Posted by: Acid Reindeer
Date: October 18, 2005 03:50PM

This covers everything except a few other tips.

* They will keep the room dry and cold. Dress accordingly.

* Have a sense of humor, always.

* Prepare yourself for the trick where the Forum Leader will set up a food break and state that he expects the group back in twenty minutes. When the participants return to the room he or she will chide the last people into the room and say that he allowed a break of fifteen minutes and that they could not abide by their promise to show on time.[/list]

Late Nights -- sleep deprivation

Quote


[forum.culteducation.com]

Hope

I did the Forum in NJ and there were people who went up to the microphone who shared and were treated just as badly. I could not watch the entire set of videos, but I'msure they didn't portray how grueling the scheduling was. Though they said there were regular breaks, lunch and dinner, they didn't say the center was in a corporate park where there were no restaurants, stores or any place to get food. I brought my own only because I had taken a ride to find the place earlier. But they lied about the services in the area and the schedule. The lunch break was half an hour at 1 p.m. and then we didn't break until 9 p.m., and then the session did not end until 1 a.m. , with homework assignments and morning start-up at 9 a.m.

ajinajan

Ironically enough, MY Landmark Forum was also in the middle of nowhere, nowhere near any place to eat, we also had very little time to rush to get food, and were scolded in front of 200 people if we came back late from a meal. Our sessions also ended around midnight or 1am, I got about 5 hours or less sleep each night, and wasl always starving when I got back to go to sleep...

[forum.culteducation.com]



A description of Landmark Education by a subject

Breakthroughs and Blarney
My Experiences With The Landmark Forum

[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2017 05:47AM by corboy.

Remember, Landmark is the current version of Werner Erhard's est program.

Werner Erhard, the one the Karmapa allowed to sponsor him to the USA and to whom Trungpa allowed a visit.

If these two (Karmapa and Trungpa) were really embodiments of Buddha's Wisdom and Compassion, plus all the special powers supposedly gained from their own tantra practices --

Why did the Karmapa allow someone like Erhard to sponsor him to the USA?


Side effects reported by a former Landmark subject - and a discussion.


My story: Landmark Education, psychological damage and psychosis

[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2017 06:03AM by corboy.

All the previous descriptions of Werner Erhard's est/Forum/Landmark education
look harsh, quite quite different from Chogyam Trungpa's Shambhala Training.

Here is a description from someone who was formerly involved with a different group. But examine the methods described -- and the effects.

[salamibaloney.blogspot.com]

Quote

AnonymousJanuary 20, 2015 at 6:28 PM

Did you attend the workshop? What did you make of the experience? And how is your friend doing now?
AnonymousJuly 13, 2015 at 12:02 PM

Healing Intensive Workshop or Retreat

One former member's description of an introductory weekend illustrates why such an impressive process works:

"On the surface it seems simple enough: come to a weekend workshop, learn about some new ideas, try them out; if you don't like it, leave. But a lot more than that is happening.

When a person is isolated, he is not in a good position to discover that he is being deceived. Deception and isolation reinforce each other. It begins with physical or geographical isolation.

Perhaps more importantly, you are isolated from your own mind.

How can that happen? If your day starts at seven a.m. and ends at midnight, and is extremely active and filled with group events, it becomes difficult to turn inward and reflect.

By the end of the day when your head hits the pillow, you just do not have the energy to stay awake.

In the workshops there is virtually no privacy.

You are intensely pressured to identify with the group. The whole is much more important than the individual….You are put in the position of competing with the interests of the whole, which generates guilt…

The workshop lectures are an emotional rollercoaster and an intellectual barrage.

To deal adequately with the concepts explored in a workshop would take months and months, if not years and years. By the end of the workshop, you have been through an intense period of no reflection, constant activity, no privacy, immense pressure toward identification with the group, suspicion of your desires to be separate from the group, roller-coaster emotions, and a barrage of ideas that have left you confused and unsure of yourself."

In addition to these overt examples, certain common and socially accepted interactions might be part of the bag of tricks used by schmoozers, con artists, and cult recruiters to manipulate, influence, control, and, in the end, get recruits to say yes, come back for more, sign up, and make a commitment.

For example, a good recruiter knows that people will respond to certain buzzwords, such as love, peace, brotherhood. He might explain that these idealized goals can be attained if the recruit behaves "properly." In most cases, the desired behavioral change is accomplished in small incremental steps; conversion to the new worldview is a gradual process.

Some methods used during cult recruitment and indoctrination are similar to hypnotic techniques used in various clinical or therapeutic contexts. In a cult environment, however, this type of manipulaton has a dual purpose:to instill deep hypnotic suggestions that are meant to change behavior and patterns of thinking; and to maintain control of the individual.

Recruiters use similar tactics in their mirroring of the interests and attitudes of recruits.

By striking a responsive chord, the recruiter, like the hypnotist, paces the subject from a psychological beginning point, slowly and carefully leading the person to the next stage. If successful, the recruiter will now be able to define the recruit's reality. A skilled recruiter establishes an environment in which the recruit is made to feel special, loved, among new friends, and a part of something unique.

While the recruit is in a susceptible state, verbal and nonverbal messages are directly and indirectly conveyed about proper behavior and thinking patterns.

(Corboy note: Non verbal messages are also inculcated using the room set up)

"It cannot be stated strongly enough," writes Jesse Miller, a clinical psychologist, "that the process of pacing and leading recruits is not only part of the initial indoctrination but is also, along with elaborate reinforcement schedules and the merciless manipulation of guilt and humiliation, an ongoing feature of cult membership."

Cults can exert significant control over the individual, ultimately influencing his mental processes and daily activities and actions, even while he is physically away from the group.

Take Back Your Life
by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias
pages 24-26

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, folks, out comes Dzongsar Khyentse with another zinger! His Cluelessness made a post on his Facebook page, riffing on criticisms he has received for his previous two posts (the most inflammatory of which he took down within hours, but it's been kept alive on the internet: his "insurance policy against abuse lawsuits" joke). It appears that he's either been checking Buddhist FB pages for reactions, or has received some criticisms directly to his own page, or both, judging by the quotations, and the tell-tale language lifted from a Buddhist discussion forum.

He's mad, and he's not taking these insults sitting down, folks! Have a look.




There have been many inquiries about the upcoming Rigdzin Sogdrup and Dorje Nyingpo empowerments at Tashiding in West Sikkim on 16-22 November. Since those are treasure teachings in the Nyingma tradition revealed by Lhatsun Namkha Jigme, they are certainly tantric teachings.

Since these teachings will be conferred by a Tibetan “feudalist” who promotes “rape culture”, whom Loppon Yudron Wangmo considers to be “disrespectful to women”, and whom Lama Tsultrim Allione, founder of Tara Mandala finds “disgusting and disrespectful unfortunately not surprising and definitely not funny,” I strongly urge you, for your own sake, not to come to Sikkim. As one author writes: These “lamaist teachings” are just “an androcentric, misogynistic cult, not a legitimate religion. Lama Dzongsar has just hammered another nail in their own coffins.”

In the words of author Ian Baker: “If enlightenment is arriving at a stranger’s door in a G-string and with a live fish protruding from your mouth, as Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche amusingly implies, maybe we are better off with the 18th century Western ‘Enlightenment’ that overthrew the tyranny of religious institutions and opened a new era of intellectual inquiry and scientific discovery.”

Discoveries which, I might add, have ushered in our present Golden Age of ecological, political and psychological glory in the west.

In sum, as these and many other notable commentators make clear, it is increasingly self-evident that tantric teachings are for backward, misogynist, male chauvinist, narrow-minded Tibetans, and I therefore strongly discourage people from attending the upcoming Sikkim teachings.

Aside from these important considerations, you should also know that west Sikkim is remote, hard to reach, and with minimal facilities, housing or amenities like medical care.

Has sarcasm become skillful means?

Guess it is, if one is a tantra adept.

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has sarcasm become skillful means?
>
> Guess it is, if one is a tantra adept.

Sarcasm is the preferred verbal weapon of choice of rebellious teenagers, dontcha know? :p

Here's an essay he wrote last year, in which he discusses the need for changes in the Tulku system, the way the child tulkus are raised and educated, and so forth.

This is interesting, bearing in mind the fact that he said the Tulku system should be done away with, in one of his films.

Hard to believe that someone who sounds so reasonable in an essay like this one, is the same person as the one who's been lashing out for the past week, about limits to teachers' behavior. I think the abuse issues that are coming to a head with the trial of Sogyal and Rigpa in France, have hit a bit too close to home for DKR.

[www.patheos.com]

Wait, the rebel teenagers do yet another thing.

Sigh and roll the eyes.

Lets see if DK does that one, too.