ollaimh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> i think she goes too far blaming the dalai lama
> for his failure to act, but it's not an
> unreasonable position to take. he should be more
> active in controlling abuse in his own system,
> however i doubt he can change the medieval
> tibetans quickly. so he is partly responsible.
> if he denounced abuse more he could leave his
> position and he would be fine as a monk.(he would
> probably be forced out) he would still have lots
> of followers and supporters. this points out the
> major issue with a lot of tibetan buddhist
> leaders. they are not even pretending to be
> renunciates. they are wealth and power holders.
> this is inconsistent with the teachings of buddha.
> they have excellent teachings burried under the
> dross of abuse, wealth, greed and ignorance, but
> so do other groups, so why do we need these power
> and wealth hungry lamas?
>
> her criticism of the world view of kalachakra is
> worth contmplating. are these people seriously
> taking the world conquest parts literally? well
> some are, and that's nuts. shambala seems to take
> this literally and that is inconsistent with
> buddhism.
>
> she also provides some eye openers about maurice
> strong and his new age contacts. strong was
> important in the canadian liberal party. it is
> disturbing what he got up to after canadian
> politics.
>
> so all and all it's an excellent book that i hope
> will open a few eyes and maybe even help push
> reforms.it gives excellent first hand views of how
> people lose their identity and become unconscious
> in such a cult atmosphere. i encourage every one
> to read john ralston saul's book:"unconscious
> civilization" and if you are brave his
> book:"voltaire's bastards." a critical analysis
> of how people in anglo culture are seriously
> unconscious , and i think trungpa and other gurus
> have learned how to harness that lack of
> consciousness to their own ends, for power and
> wealth. chandler's book shows unconsciousness in
> action. people who think they are super conscious
> being to opposite. that's a buddhist
> achievement!!

The fact is that much of TB goes against what the Buddha taught. Sitting on thrones? Wearing silk brocades? Sex?! Guru devotion--certainly not! Magic spells, black magic, as in the red Tara ceremonies? Astrology and soothsaying? The Buddha taught specifically against those things. Taking money to perform ceremonies in villagers' homes? Against the Vinaya.

And yes, we don't know if anyone takes the Kachakra world-domination theme seriously, or if they put it into historical perspective, and regard it as something from a very different time, long ago. Still, seeing how widely TB has spread around the world, and how much harm it's doing instead of good, one can't help but be alarmed, whether there are sinister ulterior motives or not.

An article on differences between Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism.

[www.budsas.org]


The one difference between the Theravadan school (Pali Scriptures) and the Vajrayanists is their stance toward Buddha in relation to time.

In Theravada, Buddha is recognized as a human being who, before he died, stated that what he taught was to be the guide, and in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta he assured disciples that he had taught everything they needed and had held nothing back.

Here is a translation from the Pali Mahaparinibbana Sutta

[www.accesstoinsight.org]

Quote


32 Yet, Lord, I still had some little comfort in the thought that the Blessed One would not come to his final passing away until he had given some last instructions respecting the community of bhikkhus."

32. Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. Whosoever may think that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him, it is such a one that would have to give last instructions respecting them. But, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such idea as that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him.

Quote



5. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "It may be, bhikkhus, that one of you is in doubt or perplexity as to the Buddha, the Dhamma, or the Sangha, the path or the practice. Then question, bhikkhus! Do not be given to remorse later on with the thought: 'The Master was with us face to face, yet face to face we failed to ask him.'"

6. But when this was said, the bhikkhus were silent. And yet a second and a third time the Blessed One said to them: "It may be, bhikkhus, that one of you is in doubt or perplexity as to the Buddha, the Dhamma, or the Sangha, the path or the practice. Then question, bhikkhus! Do not be given to remorse later on with the thought: 'The Master was with us face to face, yet face to face we failed to ask him.'"

And for a second and a third time the bhikkhus were silent. Then the Blessed One said to them: "It may be, bhikkhus, out of respect for the Master that you ask no questions. Then, bhikkhus, let friend communicate it to friend." Yet still the bhikkhus were silent.

7. And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Marvellous it is, O Lord, most wonderful it is! This faith I have in the community of bhikkhus, that not even one bhikkhu is in doubt or perplexity as to the Buddha, the Dhamma, or the Sangha, the path or the practice."

The Mahayanists came up with a "game changing' doctrine - that of Buddha's three bodies -- Trikaya. At first they argued this using the Pali Canons.


Vajrayana added a fourth body sv?bh?vikak?ya -- the "essence body"

And the Tibetan Buddhists give all kinds of stories of teachings hidden by Buddha for the benefit of future generations. Runs counter to the Mahanibbana Sutta, doesn't it.

Here's something interesting from The Inner K?lacakratantra: A Buddhist Tantric View of the Individual

[books.google.com]

In the commentary literature on the Kalachakratantra the term sv?bh?vikak?ya is sometimes used interchangeably with the term 'sahajakaya.'

[www.budsas.org]


"Form Body" Rupa Maya or Nirmana-kaya

Quote

At the beginning, there was only one Buddha in the Buddhist tradition. He is the historical Sakyamuni the Buddha. However, even during His lifetime, He made the distinction between Himself as the enlightened, historical individual, on one hand, and Himself as the Embodiment of Truth, on the other. The enlightened personality was known as the 'Rupa-kaya' (Form-body) or 'Nirmana-kaya' (Manifestation-body). This was the physical body of the Buddha who was born among men, attained Enlightenment, preached the Dhamma and attained Maha Parinibbana. The Manifestation-body or physical body of Buddhas are many and differ from one another.

"Enlightenment Body" Dharma-kaya

Quote

On the other hand, the principle of Enlightenment which is embodied in Him is known as Dharma-kaya or Truth-body. This is the essence of the Buddha and is independent of the person realizing it. 'Dhamma' in this expression means 'Truth', and does not refer to the verbal teachings which were recorded down in scriptures. The teaching of the Buddha also emanates from the 'Essence' or 'Truth'. So the real, essential Buddha is Truth or the principle of Enlightenment.

Quote

In the Buddha's lifetime, both the Nirmana-kaya and the Dharma-kaya were united in His. However, after His Parinibbana, the distinction became more pronounced, especially in the Mahayana philosophy. His Manifestation-body was dead and enshrined in the form of relics in stupas: His Dhamma-body is eternally present.

Then this doctrine became more elaborate

Enjoyment Body Sambhoga-kaya

Quote

n the Buddha's lifetime, both the Nirmana-kaya and the Dharma-kaya were united in His. However, after His Parinibbana, the distinction became more pronounced, especially in the Mahayana philosophy. His Manifestation-body was dead and enshrined in the form of relics in stupas: His Dhamma-body is eternally present.

Later, the Mahayana philosophy developed the 'Sambhoga-kaya', the Enjoyment-body. The Sambhoga-kaya can be considered as the body or aspect through which the Buddha enjoyed Himself in the Dhamma, in teaching the Truth, in leading others to the realization of the Truth, and in enjoying the company of good, noble people. This is a selfless, pure, spiritual enjoyment, not to be confused with sensual pleasure.

This 'Enjoyment-body' is not categorically mentioned in Theravada texts although it can be appreciated without contradiction if understood in this context. In Mahayana, the Enjoyment-body of the Buddha, unlike the impersonal, abstract principle of the Dharma-kaya, is also considered as a person, though not a human, historical person.

A comparison chart for Pali, Chinese Mahayana and Tibetan Mahayana scriptures.


[xuanfa.net]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2017 01:29AM by corboy.

Thank you for doing that research, corboy. I've always wondered how Buddhism got from 1 Buddha, the historical, human Buddha, to a pantheon of Buddhas: the Medicine Buddha, Manjushri, Avalokitishvara, and so many other Buddhas.
My original attraction to Buddhism was that it was very logical, it wasn't faith-based, but Mahayana, and even more so: Vajrayana, are very faith-based. Even Theravada teachings include the Buddha's teachings on the 32 realms of existence, heaven, hell, and so forth.

By the way, the business of saving relics of the deceased "prophet" or teacher,or saint, is a holdover from shamanism. Another manifestation of cultism.

the pali cannon does name three boddhisattvas, so the idea of boddhisattvas isn't just mahayanna. they were tara chenrezig and i forget the third, maybe manjushri. however the whole idea of buddha nature is hard to find in the pali cannon. there are afew phrases that are tortured to support the idea. once you have the oidea of boddhisattvas then there is no bar to more. moreover once you accept the idea of enlightenment then any enlightened teacher can teach new things. buddhism is specifically not a religion based on fixed doctrine like the western religions. moreover the split was as much about therevadans accepting the political and military support of the ashokan dynasty which in the eyes of others, including the other 12 southern pali cannon schools) as violating renunciation. now of course the leaders of most of tibetan buddhims and most vajryanna are not renunciates. they are hoarding wealth and power, this is the real source of the problem. many chinese mahayannists have renunciates in charge and operate democratically internally. the p[roblem with vajrayanna is the lack of renunciates breeds corruption, which is exactly why buddha wanted all buddhists to be renunciates and considered non renunciate buddha followers to be friends of buddhism and not buddhists. that's the official position in the therec=vadan societies today.|

hence the real issue isn't the boddhisattva practices or the theories of bodeies, all acceptable to you if you think they were taught by an enlightened person, but the lack of renunciates. that breeds corruption. there are crazy sub sects like the trungpa stream(which gets weirder and more disgusting the more i read about it--especially trungpas having sex with girls under the age of consent in canada where at the time the age of consent for a person in a position of authority was 21, he committed many sex crimes) but you can have a healthy vajrayanna group, or mahayanna group, unfortunately most are not.

I finally got around to buying this.

This really made me laugh:

"The Dalai Lama uses the same exterior of being academically-oriented when he gathers intellectuals around him... where he talks about "science" and scientific research on the benefits of mindfulness meditation and its proven connection to universal happiness. Then he goes back to Dharamsala and consults a demon-possessed oracle for all his major decisions."

Very interesting book. I have been reading her posts on her blog and lots of interesting new information.

[extibetanbuddhist.com]

Here latest article has news about sexual abuse in a Pema Chodron group
[extibetanbuddhist.com]

These days coercive Christianity is recognized as undesirable. Clergy abuse of money sex and power, Jim Jones, David Koresh (Waco) have become notorious.

By contrast few of us imagine that emotional coercion can and does take place within Buddhist sects. Buddhism mostly gets positive media coverage, especially Tibetan/Vajrayanaism.

Today we must fact check matters we once took for granted.

This quotation from Cults Inside Out refers to an important feature
that defines cults as opposed to other religious groups:

Emotional Control.

Quote

Conway and Siegelman write,

"Because as human beings, beyond all differences of faith and culture, our emotions are our most important resource, our most complex and fully integrated and universal communication capacity.

They may also be our most accurate monitor of personal morality - of what is right and wrong for each of us as individuals -- and the fairness of our conduct in relation to one another.

When at that most intimate level the wisdom of our feelings is stilled, distorted, or thrown into confusion, our greatest strength may quickly be turned into our greatest vulnerability.

Conway and Siegelman, Holy Terror: The Fundamentalist War on America's Freedoms In Religion, Politics and Our Private Lives. page 216

Corboy note: Conway and Siegelman were concerned about Chrsistian Fundamentalism.

Let us now apply their insights to what Chogyam Trungpa's students (Butterfield and Chandler) have said about Shambhala meditation techniques.

A further remark from Cults Inside Out, page 162 -3.

Quote

(Conway and Siegelman explain that such (cultic) emotional control
is a achieved through "the reduction of individual response to basic emotions such as love, guilt, fear, anger, hatred, etc."

This is accomplished "by means of suggestion" through "the indirect use of cues, code words, symbols, images and myths". For example, Bible based groups may use the images of Jesus and Satan to emotionally manipulate members....

This means of manipulation allows its practitioners to assign any action or feeling they perceive as negative or challenging to their authority to the category of "satanic" or "demonic" while simultaneously using the image of Jesus or God as a facade for their authority. Within this box, whenever disobedience occurs or doubts surface, they are consigned to the devil or dark forces. Obedience to the leadership is correspondingly characterized as compliance with the will of God and heavenly authority.

Corboy: Let's apply Conway and Siegelman's insights to Tibetan/Vajrayana Buddhism -- which includes Chogyam Trungpa and Pema Chodron's Kagyu/Shambhala sect.

Let's take the quotation cited above and replace the Christian terminology with Vajaryana terminology.

Quote

(Conway and Siegelman explain that such (cultic) emotional control
is a achieved through "the reduction of individual response to basic emotions such as love, guilt, fear, anger, hatred, etc."

(Does this remind anyone of the meditation exercises Trungpa and the Shambhala instructors reportedly taught practitioners? )

This is accomplished "by means of suggestion" through "the indirect use of

(altars, chanting, thanka paintings, ritual gestures, mandala offerings, incense, prostrations) praise and supplication litanies, mantras and vajra vows),

symbols (Tibetan Buddhism is filled with symbols - thunderbolts, skull bowls, thighbone trumpets, mala rosaries made from various gems, ),

images (Portraits of famous gurus, deities, copulating male and female deities, wrathful deities, monstrous dharma protectors)

Threatening components - hell realms, threats of rebirths filled with miseryif you have doubts or reveal guru abuses of money sex and power

Instillation of fears you did not have prior to involvement with Shambhala:

Threats that You will be attacked by demons and or go to hell or endure horrid rebirths if you criticize or doubt your teacher, abandon dharma practice or warn the outside world that your teacher is abusing money, sex and power.)[/i]
.
Conway and Siegelman write:

"This means of manipulation allows its practitioners to assign any action or feeling they perceive as negative or challenging to their authority to the category of "satanic" or "demonic" while simultaneously using the (need to bring Buddha dharma to the whole world) or (the tantric guru) as a facade for their authority.

Within this box, whenever disobedience occurs or doubts surface, they are consigned to the practitioners deluded mind, negativity or demonic attack on practitioners of the True Dharma. or dark forces."

Obedience to the vajra gurus, lamas, rinpoches, is correspondingly characterized as bodhichitta, loyalty to one's vows and guarantees good rebirth and acclerates arrival of the Kingdom of Shambhala and conversion of all beings to the Dharma.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2018 09:03PM by corboy.

To quote The Who:

Meet the new Boss (Trungpa, Shambhala) (Doubters and dropouts accumulate bad karma and go to Vajra hell and multiple lifetimes of hellish rebirths)

Same as the old Boss (God sends doubters and dropouts to hell)

Corboy, I don't understand a few things about the "indoctrination" methods in Tibetan Buddhism. For example, you mention the instilling of fears of demons, Vajra Hell, and the like. Why would anyone believe this? Why would anyone coming from an atheistic background, or a Christian background that they had rejected, take any of this on? That makes no sense to me.

Then, there's the business of altars. Supposedly, a "good" practitioner is supposed to set up an altar at home, and spend money on various furnishings for it. Again--why would someone do this, other than perhaps a fascination for the exotic, and a fair amount of disposable income to indulge that fascination with? Many students don't, in fact, have money to buy things at their local Tibetan shop, or over the internet, through vendors advertised in Dharma mags. I always found it ironic, that magazines devoted to spreading the Buddha's anti-materialist gospel are full of pages of advertising pushing products.

I've never had an altar, and never believed in any kind of hell or demons. It's hard for me to fathom or to believe that anyone who rejected deities, angels and devils in Christianity would eagerly rush to embrace the same, in TB. Do you have any insights on that?

We need someone to put up a book review of the "Double Mirror" book, if there isn't already one posted, somewhere. That would be informative.

Misstyk wrote:

Quote

Why would anyone coming from an atheistic background, or a Christian background that they had rejected, take any of this on? That makes no sense to me.

I was referring to coercive Christianity and did a compare and contrast instillation in abusive Christian groups vs what I have seen described in memoirs written by students of Tibetan Buddhism.


I mentioned vajra hell because a student of Chogyam Trungpa, Stephen Butterfield mentioned that he and the other students were taught about vajra hell and expected to take it seriously.

(The Double Mirror by Stephen Butterfield)

Butterfield wrote that he got into trouble when, at a party, he jokingly made a toast to vajra hell.

Demon protectors of the dharma were mentioned in Buddha From Brooklyn by Martha Sherrill - that book described the sangha that formed around Jetsunma Akhon Lamo.

Misstyk wrote:

Quote

We need someone to put up a book review of the "Double Mirror" book, if there isn't already one posted, somewhere. That would be informative.

That's right. This post will give a framework for me to do exactly that.

In his book Turtle Feet: The Making and Unmaking of a Buddhist Monk, Nikolai Grozni, who spent several years in Dharamsala as a Gelukpa monk and studied
at the Buddhist Institute of Dialectics in the 1990s, tells that in the curriculum there was a class on the Hell Realms.

Quote

Some weeks passed and Tsar and I established a routine. We'd set the
alarm clock for seven-thirty, intending to get an early start and arrive at the
Library of Xbetan Works and Archives in time for the eight o'clock Introduction
to Buddhist Hells class, which we were both mildly curious about,
and every morning we'd wake up at half-past nine, with neither of us having
any recollection of an alarm going off at any point.

Turtle Feet, page 122

[www.ahandfulofleaves.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2018 03:48AM by corboy.