Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: February 28, 2019 05:16AM

Absolutely, Horowitz,

Moo and B. Massaro are both in on the same game, as are most of these so-called non-dual teachers. They mis-use the self-enquiry process to try and break down people's identities and render them compliant and receptive. Then they fill their heads with a lot of rubbish which makes them dependent and open to manipulation.

I just read most of journalist Be Scofield's article about Massaro and she details how he believes in alien life, has sex with his devotees and thinks that he is more spiritually evolved than Jesus himself! Geez, does that sound familiar to anyone????

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: billyboy ()
Date: February 28, 2019 05:31AM

The articles linked were very interesting Sahara71. I think if anyone is in the same position as me; spending time with family/friends is probably the way to go. Since, I'm away from family at the moment I'm spending time educating myself again by reading. I've found that reading objective material is really helping with recovery. Did you completely disconnect from everything and try to spend as much time with family and friends for recovery Sahara?

We live and we learn. I am now extremely selective of the material I choose to consume, since learning about the power of hypnosis and trance. I've noticed that I automatically go into this state when I watch television. Especially after listening and being exposed to Moo, I now know the feeling when I am being subjected to hypnotic coersion. I'm interested in learning more and will be sure to check posts by The Anticult. I have definitely watched Osho, he never blinks, it's so hypnotic; he reminds me of Kaa from the jungle book. I wonder if suggestive people are able to watch Rajneesh or Tony Moo objectively without succumbing to hypnosis. I mean how would you even know if you can consciously resist such influence, the unconscious aspect of ourself is so ill-defined and hard to decipher/access.

I also wonder if texts may have hypnotic power. I was watching a youtube video that discussed how 'The Catcher in the Rye' was used to manipulate subconscious tendencies and thought patterns in readers. I'm going to add the link if anyone isinterested, [www.youtube.com]. I read the book and definitely felt almost as if I was was becoming the protagonist. I'm sure there is hypnotic power to text.

It's a shame that none of this is taught in schools, especially since so many children spend so much time online, potentially being exposed to cults.

I can definitely see now how Moo might have used questions illiciting "yes" responses that the second article talks about to make his followers confused. His invitation uses "no" responses, I've watched it and found it extremely terrifying seeing everyone respond in unison in a zombie like manner, 'Animal Farm' anyone?

@Corboy,it's encouraging to hear that I can recover. Thank you for the link to Sahara's earlier post, I have found it helpful. I've been doing a bit of body weight exercises and I feel it's grounding me a bit more. I think I do agree that seshing might prolong the recovery, so I may take your recommendation and remain sober during the process. I also think that right now I am out of synch with my body. There's my body and my mind. Then there's also those remnant nagging nested loop thought patterns from Tony Moo, which feels like a separate entity to my body and mind to be honest. So yes, definitely need to get in synch again. I believe more research ,knowledge, understanding and social communion will help me with my recovery.

Curious, is anyone aware of websites such as this that exposes aspects of culture and society for what it is; journalism, arts, philosophy etc? There's so much rubbish on the internet. It's nice to find something like this.

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: zizlz ()
Date: February 28, 2019 05:45AM

I'm reading James Swartz's book "The essence of enlightenment: Vedanta, the science of consciousness" which is an introduction to traditional Advaita Vedanta. The chapter "A qualified teacher" is very pertinent to Mooji. Here's two quotes from the chapter:

Quote

Enlightenment has no meaning apart from how you live. It is quite amazing in this day and age that the “crazy wisdom” idea still has legs. “Do as I say, not as I do,” is not a teaching. What use is enlightenment if it amounts to nothing more than a license for the ego to indulge its cravings? It is quite sad that so many teachers have compromised themselves over the years and given truth a bad name over the most banal vices: money, sex, fame, or power. One imagines that the vices of the enlightened should somehow be more exotic.

Quote

A teacher who convinces you that your ego needs busting or that your mind needs to be destroyed is very dangerous. Fame does not a teacher make; groups of people can be as deluded as individuals. You will notice that the teachers around whom cults of personality develop invariably make the mind the enemy. Whenever a doubt happens, you are told that it is just “mind” and asked to dismiss it. If you find yourself with this kind of teacher and teaching, it means that he does not have a valid means of knowledge and is power hungry or needy. It is amazing how many popular teachers actually need your love. If you feel that a teacher needs you for any reason, head for the hills. You are asking for trouble. A true teacher is dispassionate and self-fulfilled and has nothing to gain by teaching you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2019 05:54AM by zizlz.

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: February 28, 2019 07:14AM

Billyboy,

it seems that you and I have a lot in common. As for recovering from Moo's magic mind games, perhaps different things work for different people? I am no expert in this matter, but for me, it was getting back to a normal life, of seeing friends, enjoying the simple pleasures of sunshine, beach, exercise, food and drink, walking in nature, etc. If you have a hobby that you enjoy, you might like to get back into that.

Exercise is good, because it takes you out of your head. Moo's teachings keep you inside your head and they keep you confused and dependent.

If you take Moo's teachings seriously, you end up by living very superficially, believing that nothing matters, because essentially nothing is 'real'. This why we see people selling up and moving to Portugal, because their 'real' lives no longer have any meaning.

True spirituality finds meaning in actual lived experience- it does not 'shame' people for living their lives, having opinions and being independent.

I have read 'Catcher in the Rye' several times and loved the book. Yes, I believe at the time this novel was slammed for it's subversive ideas, as it certainly had a lot of negative stuff to say about society.

You are on the money, when you say that the book had trance-inducing qualities. In fact, all 'stories' have trance-inducing qualities. Notice how when you become engrossed in a novel and you do not notice the passage of time? You feel relaxed and focused? You feel like you could be the protagonist or at least understand the protagonist as though he were your best friend? This is a type of trance... it's not especially harmful, as most people can distinguish a 'story' form reality.

From what I recall, our ability to discern reality from 'a story' begins at a very young age- that is why little kids know what 'make-believe' is.

You are right- T.V. puts people into a trance state too. That's why advertising jingles are hard to get out of our heads! Advertisers know all this and they exploit it. So you do have to be aware of the type of programs you are watching and the messages you are receiving on a daily basis form the T.V. Again, if you are sane and stable, this is not especially a problem, as you can use critical thinking to discern whether what you are seeing on T.V has any validity.

The big problem with Moo's teaching is that it continually admonishes you to throw away critical thinking. This is where the problems begin.

Reality becomes an 'option' under Moo's teachings. You are going to see people who are susceptible to psychosis disassociate from reality big time, if they fall for this stuff. Most people are not genetically prone to psychosis and so have some in-built protection against this sh*t, so ultimately are going to be OK, fortunately.

Still, it's a huge mind f*ck for many people and they end up taking a lot of time to get their lives back in order (or so I have heard.)

Bare in mind that I am not a psychologist and that if you have any questions about this, then you should talk to your doctor and get medical advice. I urge anyone who had concerns about their mental health to see their doctor. Help is available.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2019 07:18AM by Sahara71.

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: February 28, 2019 07:56AM

Billyboy,

I am just re-reading your last post. I wanted to tell you that for many months I was afraid to watch Moo online again, as I was worried about being hypnotized all over again. But it turns out that once I knew what he was doing, his material had no effect over me and I found watching his antics quite funny!

However, I have been in contact with people who went straight from watching Moo to watching some other new-age guru or non-dual teacher and they seemed very confused. It's like they still believed some vague, mish-mash of religious ideas... It was very concerning.

I would advise you to stay away form watching Moo and other teachers for a while, if at all possible. Maybe just read-up on hypnosis, NLP, trance, cults, etc, but give yourself plenty of time to do other things as well.

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: GODHIMSELF ()
Date: February 28, 2019 08:33AM

Clearvision your quote as been use in a YOUTUBE video
call "Mooji false guru and a Jamaican "pirate of the Carabeen"

"Mooji is a direct disciple in the lineage of the great Advaita Vedanta master Sri H.W.L. Poonja and the great sage Sri Ramana Maharshi. In 1987, Mooji was brought into the direct experience of the Divine within and began a life of quiet simplicity and surrender. Drawn to his light, beings began seeking him out to discover the living Truth. Mooji shares satsang in the form of retreats, intensives, and spontaneous gatherings across the globe. For more information, visit mooji.org."

This was found on the No Ramana Maharshi Lineage facebook page article: False lineage narrative with “Mooji”

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: clearvision ()
Date: February 28, 2019 09:30AM

That's great GODHIMSELF. I appreciate the part in the video where it is explained that David Godman spent 4 years! with Papaji, and wouldn't dare let anyone touch his feet. It is known that Moo only spent a very short time with Papaji. It says on that lineage page that it was also only in a group setting nonetheless! Moo has certainly spun "attending group meetings" into a tall tale - "awakening at his Master's feet!"

What Tony Moo didn't bank on is that there are many people, going about their normal lives without making a fuss, that are more awakened than he is, and can see though him!

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: clearvision ()
Date: February 28, 2019 09:46AM

Great quotes from James Swartz zizlz.
I've read that book and find it to be a mature, well needed no-nonsense look at Advaita Vedanta. I'd encourage any current, or re-covering Moo follower to read it!

Both quotes fit "Dirty Tony" to a tee... I especially like the second one!

"A teacher who convinces you that your ego needs busting or that your mind needs to be destroyed is very dangerous. Fame does not a teacher make; groups of people can be as deluded as individuals. You will notice that the teachers around whom cults of personality develop invariably make the mind the enemy. Whenever a doubt happens, you are told that it is just “mind” and asked to dismiss it. If you find yourself with this kind of teacher and teaching, it means that he does not have a valid means of knowledge and is power hungry or needy. It is amazing how many popular teachers actually need your love. If you feel that a teacher needs you for any reason, head for the hills. You are asking for trouble. A true teacher is dispassionate and self-fulfilled and has nothing to gain by teaching you."

I know he's aware of Moo, and finds his scene to be like a kindergarten (in terms of depth of teaching.)

This is a great article from James Swartz that busts the lineage crap that Tony tries to hang on to:

http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/trad_neo/lineage_swartz.htm

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: February 28, 2019 10:02PM

The mind is the enemy, heh?

A fellow named Panini created a grammar/rule book standardizing Sanskrit word formation and grammar back in the 4th century, BCE.

[www.google.com]

Genuine Advaita scholars wrote and taught in Sanskrit and Panini's grammar and its commentaries were standard.

Turns out that when Panini's work was discovered by Western linguists in the 18th and 19th centuries, Panini's theories were found to excel anything previously available to Western language analysts.

Panini's work became foundational for modern Western linguistic theory and was
then used to create today's high level computer coding languages!

[www.google.com]

By coincidence, I found out about this two days ago, while reading a book entitled Geek Sublime

[www.google.com]

The mind is the enemy, eh?

No.

What made these bogus neo advaita teachers possible, was a movement called the Hindu Renaissance/reform movement.

This started among a small group of Indians who had received Westernized education, but had not been educated within the system of genuine Indian scholarship which was a closed shop controlled by Sanskrit literate upper caste Brahmins, Khastriayas and Vaisyas.

Vivekananda and other political activists were ashamed of how India had been conquired by just a few hundred thousand technologically advanced European barbarian types.

So Vivekandanda and those influenced by him, created a dumbed down version of Hindu nationalist history and spirituality.

They did this by postiting that India was once perfect and powerful, and Hinduism scientific perfect, pristine, that even nuclear weapons were once created and owned by Vedic Hindu Indians, but that once all this was taken away from the Vedic rishis, seers and taken over by the Sanskrit scholastic elite, Hinduism degenerated, became corrupt, Indians became corrupt and weak and mentally and physically degenerate and that the way to rescue Hinduism and restore it to purity and power was to take it away from the Sanskrit scholastics, wean people away from corrupt Sanskrit intellectual jugglery
and rely on just a few books such as the Bhagavad Gita and Puranas.

Any use of intellect, any reference to responsible scholarship and regard for factual evidence, any questioning of this dumbed down Hinduistic ideology was dismissed as intellectual jugglery.

All this found popularity among those Indians who had no access to the genuine
intellectual and artistic heritage of India. It was also popular with Westerners
who wanted access to orientalist Indianized spirituality but who did not want to go to the effort of learning Sanskrit and learning to understand the original source material.

This in turn left a large audience hungry for sustenance but without the background information needed to fact check charlatans claiming to be gurus and who reassuringly teach that the mind is the enemy.

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: 2cents ()
Date: February 28, 2019 10:52PM

I’ve been to Moo’s last 2 Rishikesh seasons, delighted to be a part of such a monumental, bordering on Hollywood, spiritual experience with like-minded beings - you know the drill. A week before coming to Rishikesh 3 weeks back, a friend mentioned Moo has some allegations surfacing. So I started researching and found this forum and truly everything came into focus that I had been suppressing/denying/ignoring/rationalizing around the ‘citadel’ that is Mooji. This was pure Grace! With all my heart, thank you to all who are contributing your experiences because this has been a major wake-up call, and good to know I’m not the crazy one!

I see that I have been experiencing Cognitive Dissonance: “Cognitive dissonance refers to a situation involving conflicting attitudes, beliefs or behaviors. This produces a feeling of mental discomfort leading to an alteration in one of the attitudes, beliefs or behaviors to reduce the discomfort and restore balance.” (Google)
Here are my ‘conflicting’ observances that I ignored:
1. I noticed a few years ago at Monte Sahaja, a ‘guru aarti’ was composed – also blending Papaji and Ramana, but mostly ‘Mooji Baba’. First reaction was , oh no, here we go – making Tony Moo ‘guru Moo’. Then calling him Guruji, Bhagavan, Master, Beloved Father, etc..
2. Then the touching and kissing the feet, then last year the sangha started walking backward when leaving the stage rather than turning their back to Mooji (old tradition in respect for holy people) – so gradually this full-blown guru trip has infested the entire scene. The worst part is that Mooji doesn’t stop or seem to object to any of it -but rather seems to expect it and enjoy it all.
3. Then, walking through the crowd displaying Jesus-like behaviors of putting his hand on people’s heads as if healing, wiping tears away, giving special attention to the Indian elders as if to assure them ‘he’ is equal to all the other ‘masters’ they might have known.
4. Also the fact that Mooji seems to pride himself on not having done any real study of ancient spiritual texts that foster authenticity and authority. Rather, he regularly reads some verses from Avadhut Gita to prove his teaching is legitimate – but it is quite obviously flawed because no one seems to be getting anywhere – in fact, there seems to be people breaking down and falling apart in despair from always returning to their human-ness. Moo seems to infer that if he never did any disciplined study or put forth ‘effort’, we needn’t either – discouraging true investigation and critical analysis. This definitely keeps the game going – lost people getting nowhere always will need directions – Moo.

Point is: all this was noticed (cognitive) and because I drank the Koolaid and felt I was getting the ‘real deal’ of a warm and fuzzy,simple effortless awakening to Self – I rationalized these disturbing things away in the name of ‘the means justify the end’ kind of thing (dissonance). Someone on the forum wrote about the body and mind should ultimately work together in harmony – well, I know my body always tells me ‘what’s for me’ and ‘what’s not’ – and it did – but I ignored it = Cognitive Dissonance. The most important part of this (for me) is not having anger towards Moo or the sheeple around him, but frustration, a sense of self-betrayal, sadness and disappointment within myself for ignoring intuition, knowing in my heart something was seriously ‘off ‘ and not listening because the ‘payoff’ of awakening and sense of belonging were greater. OMG, over it!!

I knew this was going to be a strange journey with all that has been revealed – and I sit now in my Rishikesh hotel– catching a few satsangs just to see what’s happening and I have to say – I was shocked to see Moo’s parents photos on the dais – this smells of serious and manipulative damage control -again, weird and disturbing. As I listen now, I see right through Mooji’s tactics, his endless tricks and turns to bring the person around to some acceptance that they are not ‘real’ – as they go into a somnambulistic trance - probably from being kept standing at the mike for an hour and a half!! I notice how he’s always looking for the ‘hook’ to start the endless dialog into the repetitive analogies, stories, quotes. Self-elevating statements like ‘ I want to eat someone today’, or ‘ Is there a Buddha here today’ only speak to Moo’s sense of superiority – and yet – when a truly sincere experiencer of the Self is at the microphone, he seems to dismiss them, or somehow finds his ‘hook’ and it’s off the races with endless indulgent verbiage.
Enough - you guys have said it all really – just adding my ‘take’.
I so appreciate the solid information you all are offering, and informative links to help understand this ‘drink the Kool-Aid” Tony Moo phenomenon. Thank you each and all!

More on cognitive dissonance: Cognitive Dissonance

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