Swissanalyst wrote:

Quote

Re: Mooji a cult?

Date: March 20, 2019 09:19AM

Rick Archer presents the "few bad apples" theory.

I'd like to offer an alternative point of view: that the entire endeavor of gurus and satsangs and neoadvaita and the like is flawed from the very outset.

If you view your moral principles simply as temporary formations within awareness, then you end up ignoring them.

All that's left is the acting out of the damaged id -- the traumatized infant constantly trying to fulfill its unmet needs, no matter what the consequences for those around it.

If you view your moral principles simply as temporary formations within awareness, then you end up ignoring them.

All that's left is the acting out of the damaged id -- the traumatized infant constantly trying to fulfill its unmet needs, no matter what the consequences for those around it.

Swissanalyst, in what you've written you have in my opinion, identified the flaw in two popular spiritual paths:

Neo Advaita and all of Vajrayana (commonly referenced as Tibetan Buddhism)

I would go so far as to suggest that any system whatsoever that postulates a level of attainment where a human being can regard conventional ethics and boundaries temporary way stations on the upward ascent to Realization is a system that will become a factory that will inevitably produce "realized beings" who are impulse driven toddlers in adult bodies.

They show good manners and charm and earn Nobel Prizes by using their adult capacities to behave well in public where support is to be wooed and maintained.

But in private behind closed doors, they are cruel and greedy children and their entourages know the full ugly truth.

We had Rajneesh gassing himself silly on nitrous oxide, accumulating fancy cars the way children collect Pokemon cards.

Gail Tredwell in her memoir Holy Hell revealed how Amma the Hugging Saint threw tantrums and assaulted her in rages.

In Vajrayana, aka Tibetan Buddhism, moral principes are also viewed as temporary formations within awareness.

"If you view your moral principles simply as "temporary formations within awareness".

In Vajrayana world, we have a long and sorry procession of lamas, tulkus and rinpoches, who have been reported by journalists and others as engaged in various combinations of sex drugs and misbehaving:

* Chogyam Trungpa

* Trunpa's son, Mipham

* Jetsunma Akhon Lahmo

* Sogyal Rinpoche

These are not a few bad apples.

This belief system and the misleading romance that enshrouds it and brings it
hopeful aspirants *innoculates* good people with rottenness -- and attracts predators who smell opportunity.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2019 08:11PM by corboy.

Sahara71

Great quote. I saw the post. It’s unfortunate that some use this time to put Rick Archer down and mock his entire efforts on Batgap. I do see their point but what a crap thing to do at the time Rick Archer is taking a stand.

This video from Sahaja Express is so sad. In the beginning Mooji is abdicating his influence and power and it’s all so garbly goop. So obvious an example of bypassing. He teaches dissociation and escapism. It’s really quite alarming.

The most recent comment from Amma Tanya White on he Facebook page (which is public):

"Thank God I trusted Spirit’s guidance when they instructed me to email a former devotee of Mooji’s inner circle, who had broken away from the diabolical influence of Sahaja, (his ashram), over 2 years ago. I never could have never imagined that our conversation would open Pandora’s box and rip back the veil of delusion and break the influence of the hypnotic, psychological brainwashing I had been under for the past 8 years.
I had no idea just how off things were! But once I discovered the abuse and extreme misuse of Mooji’s position of power as a spiritual teacher to some and Master to others, there was NO turning back for me.
Just this past week I was finally able to go through pictures of Mooji and I taken over the years, and painfully delete them one by one, without getting nauseous or feeling my skin crawl as the visualizations of some of his sexual misappropriations with his younger, female devotees flooded my mind."

I've just posted a section of her comment here - you can read the whole thing on her Facebook page. It's great to see that she is not backing down.

I did find another comment from a man who identifies himself as "Truth Burton" on Quora:

[www.quora.com]

He says:

"I personally know a woman who was on retreat with him, and Mooji seduced and slept with my friends friend…. while he already had a girlfriend."

(He doesn't report whether this woman became instantly awakened by Moo's enlightened touch or not - possibly not???)

Also an interesting comment from Reddit by a person called "InterestingBad2":

[www.reddit.com]

"I had a lot of love and respect for him (Mooji), having met him in 2012, and felt that he was the 'real thing' so to speak.
However I do think something has really changed in that group, and in him, in the past years. Having spoken now with some long-time devotees who have been heartbroken about this news and some who fervently don't want to believe it, I am sensing that there is no smoke without fire in this case.
And regardless of what sexual stuff went on, which I also feel in my heart is being accurately reported (if in slightly overly sensational language), there is just a vibe here that deeply concerns me as a long-time practitioner myself.
I was deeply upset by reading this and by seeing their deflecting and catty responses, but it's a reminder that everybody, no matter how clear in one sense, is fundamentally a human being. Personally I stopped hanging out with Mooji people when it started changing from being about the message to being more about the individual himself, and when I saw that there was a huge power hierarchy there. That's a recipe for broken hearts and broken people after a long enough time.
There is also a concern for me about the mental state of a lot of his devotees (as well as him personally), but I won't comment on that as I am not a professional."

Ganga Tarot in blue now with two small dogs, no cats? In Mooji - Ramana - Guru's [www.youtube.com]
“...It’s a fantasy and jumbled mess of ideations and a manufactured hypnotic experience with a satsang seller - Mooji…..”


The state of mental health and immaturity of Mooji's devotees is a big issue and concern...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2019 08:38PM by Horowitz.

This is a great post from Chidambar Stef on the facebook group Nonduality Salon:

New guru same old same old scandal.

I have known a certain now famous and wealthy guru for many years since he first started arriving in Tiruvannamalai with the Lucknow crowd after Papaji’s passing in the mid 90’s.

At first I liked him a lot as he was funny, warm and relational and was not so interested in manifesting the “great man at the centre of the circle ” role that he later perfected. I met him and chatted with him in some of the shanty cafés around Tiruvannamalai and later noticed that he was beginning to develop an aura of “one who knows” and was often surrounded and clearly enjoyed the (then) small group of mostly female seekers and few sensitive men that surrounded him.

While I had zero interest in hanging with gurus, having been in a highly guru-centric cult for several years, I went to a few Satsangs over the years. Whilst I enjoyed the group meditation and earnestness of the attendees, I noticed how he was developing his style and subtly shifting his presentation of “we are all here together in this” to “I am here enlightened and you are too but you don’t know it” to “Just hang with me and you’ll be fine”. It was a short hop to tears of devotees, foot-washing and the sale of the “sacred soil” He had walked on.

Many of these professional teacher/gurus operate in a similar style to the professional“psychic mediums” who perform in theatres. In front of a large crowds; these apparent psychics say, “I am getting a ‘J’ is there someone in the audience who had someone recently passing with a J? ” Of course, there is always someone in a large audience who had an uncle John or aunty Joan recently passed. From then on in the audiences content is reflected back to them.

This guru points to the present aliveness that is clearly here and now in everyone who is reading these symbols in this moment. Concerns of the audience are undermined in classic Advaita Vedanta style by pointing the questioner to their own awareness.

This type of Satsang depends on what the audience bring and of course they are mostly full of projection about what the “wise one” will say. What is clear to me is that this wise one was often winging it and while there clearly was some insight and understanding, one could find the same among many who had been engaged in spiritual practice for more than a few years.

The professional “guru” needs the disciple to give him the submissive attention to empower his role as “wisdom holder”.
There is self abasement and self disempowerment of and by the seeker, who is used to this submission via parental and societal programming. There is a group energetic field that arises when any group focus on one person or persons, be it at a football match, political rally, music concert or Scientology meeting. That buzz indeed may lead to a limited type of self-transcendence and one feels part of a greater whole.

Pop stars, sporting events, politicians, including National Socialism, the Nazis, and Trump appeal and work the same territory. “Forget your everyday and look at me!”

The understanding of group dynamics is essential for the modern professional guru. An inner core of totally devoted followers must be created and maintained through both cajoling the “ego” or “mind” of those that have any doubts, and praising the self abasement and imagined progression of the seeker as s/he surrenders more and more of her/his previous points of view. A new “healthier” and more “spiritual” group point of view is encouraged and one suddenly finds oneself embraced, welcomed and “loved” by the community. One has suddenly “found the one, the way and the truth”. The honeymoon begins...

Surrender of one’s moral framework happens step by step until a little way down the line one becomes both addicted to the buzz of being with the “perfect one” and the fuzzy feeling of merging with the group mind, such that one lives in a state of suspended investment of one’s previous mental/emotional condition and constantly turns to the guru or the group for guidance and re-assurance. Anything that seems suspect is interpreted as “resistance”, “ego” or “mind”.

I watched this particular teacher rise and assume the mantle of “The Guru” with all the business, videos, books, retreats and the necessary self promotion that goes with that role. As the crowd grew so did the usual insider/outsider game. I watched as he appointed others, who had “got it” to teach his method and watched them become “holy”, start off their own franchises and be able to pronounce that others were “getting it” or “not quite yet”.

I was curious because there was indeed a buzz in attending these larger groups and they reminded some of the Satsangs around Papaji where a taste of present moment freedom would spark off in one and then spread to many.

So if people were experiencing freedom in his company what was the problem? I felt in my core that this was off but didn’t know exactly how? I asked within to be shown the answer to this question.

A few days later it was this teacher’s birthday and after Satsang he walked among the crowd giving sweets to the adoring crowd. When he came to me, I remained simply present without any projection positive or negative. As he handed me a sweet, he looked at me and flinched in recoil; I was not one of those looking at him with any kind of wide-eyed adoration or attitude.

Outside the Satsang hall his crew was selling tickets to his birthday party later that evening. On the same evening I was invited to a birthday party of the six year old son of an Indian friend and there was no way that I wanted to buy an expensive ticket to a “birthday party” of this guru, but an inner urging prompted me to buy a ticket.

I attended the delightful and simple birthday party for the young boy down by the lake in a simple hut with a few Indian friends. On my way back to the room I was staying in I passed by the venue where the guru was holding his birthday bash and entered to find a section of the compound cordoned off.

I came up to a small gate where I presented my ticket to two beaming female devotees who wanted to stamp my wrist with the dayglo inks that are routine procedure at big rave music events. I told the “gopis” that I would only attend for 15 minutes maximum so would not let them ink my arm.

As I passed through the barrier I noticed a number of stalls selling expensive vegetarian food, the guru’s books, CD’s, photos, beads and paraphernalia.
My attention was drawn by the blast of music slightly further away and I turned to see the guru at the very centre of fifty or so people. He was dancing with his hands upraised while the group around him in a tight circle pressing to get close to him as they chanted his name over and over.

It was then that my question as to why this whole guru scene was off became answered. While he was providing something to this gathering and sharing the message Papaji had shown him, it was all about him and his need to be at the centre. While there was an undoubtedly charismatic nature to this man, it reminded me of the glow that had surrounded a man I had run into in a small street in London many years ago- his name was Paul McCartney.

I was also instantly reminded of U.G. Krishnamurti’s comment about the gurus who pick your pocket and sell you back your own wallet.

When we make a man an infallible god, egoic inflation and claims of abuse are almost bound to follow.

Caveat Emptor.

Thanks for sharing that post, Clearvision.

It is a very insightful view of a fragile "Guru" in need of adoration.

I saw in response to that post, a person who has studied Advaita Vedanta for 16 years took issue with the comment "Concerns of the audience are undermined in classic Advaita Vedanta style by pointing the questioner to their own awareness."

This person states that turning the question back onto the questioner and asking such things as "Who is the one who asks the question?" is actually not classic Advaita Vedanta but a method of 'self-inquiry' that apparently was used by Ramana.

This method is now misused by unskilled teachers who do not like to answer questions about their incomplete, watered-down teachings.

In traditional Advaita Vedanta, all questions are encouraged and all doubts are looked into. A student is never told to reject their own mind or dismiss critical thinking. Mooji and many other 'neo-advaita' teachers just make up their own thing as they go along, and then they use it to manipulate people.

Food for thought.

IMO this underscores how any person, no matter how wise and well intentioned will poisoned by the Guru Business Model itself.

Don't blame the disciples.

The gurus and their PR teams create the situation that attracts the disciples.


More Musings on Why Spiritual Teachers Go Wrong Brad Warner at Hardcore Zen.

[hardcorezen.info]

Go see the film Kumare Story of a False Prophet by Vikram Gandhi.

VG was concerned about the yoga guru craze. As an experiment he decided to impersonate an Indian guru, named himself Kumare.

He got a following. Worried about the effects on his followers, he revealed this had all been an impersonation.

Some continued to believe in him.

The one person who was enraged and refused to forgive him was a woman who had formed the ambition of becoming his publicist and securing an important role in his spiritual empire.

[www.google.com]

And there is a something called the Dr Fox effect. If you speak gibberish but in a very confident manner, it can impress people who show up expecting something.

[www.google.com]

Key thing is, how can one learn from people without mythologizing them.

In the satsang scene, every teacher has a legitimation narrative, a reason why its better to see this guy or gal vs all the others.

The mythologizing sets in. Its marketing.

Then there is the chatter back and forth. I went to Tiru. I just returned from so and so's ashram in the Netherlands.

Or from Arizona, San Rafael, Santa Cruz, Byron Bay, Totnes, etc.

Dont spend more money and time than you can afford.

There is a film worth seeing, Kumare Story of a False Prophet. A fellow intentionally impersonated a guru and got a following.

[www.google.com]

And there is a something called the Dr Fox effect. If you speak gibberish but in a very confident manner, it can impress people who show up expecting something.

[www.google.com]

Key thing is, how can one learn from people without mythologizing them.

In the satsang scene, every teacher has a legitimation narrative, a reason why its better to see this guy or gal vs all the others.

The mythologizing sets in. Its marketing.

Then there is the chatter back and forth. I went to Tiru. I just returned from so and so's ashram in the Netherlands.

Or from Arizona, San Rafael, Santa Cruz, Byron Bay, Totnes, etc.

Dont spend more money and time than you can afford.