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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: zizlz ()
Date: June 09, 2019 05:35PM

Psychological work may be necessary to progress beyond the seedling phase.

From this excellent article about the psychological pitfalls on the spiritual path:

[tricycle.org]

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In its ability to shine light into the hidden nooks and crannies of our conditioning, psychological inquiry can serve as a powerful ally to spiritual practice. It can help break up the hard, rocky soil of our personality patterns so that this soil becomes permeable, allowing the seeds of spiritual realization to take root and blossom there more fully. Of course, this kind of psychological work would require a much larger understanding and aim than conventional psychotherapy, whose focus is on pathology and cure rather than transformation.


The whole article is excellent and should be required reading for any (especially Western) spiritual seeker.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: 2cents ()
Date: June 09, 2019 09:46PM

Thank you Ziziz for this fantastic article - so clarifying regarding those deep murky parts of our conditioned psyche that one must examine - eventually - for integrated evolutionary growth. It made me very aware of how I have resorted to spiritual bypassing when looking for that easy exit from arising issues within myself and others - ugg -such arrogance but it's all grist for the mill.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: June 09, 2019 09:57PM

Here's a thing to look at.

The aim of psychotherapy that supports spiritual practice should best take the form of instruction - that is, teaching us tools of psychological inquiry that we can then, after instruction, take home and utilize in conjunction with our spiritual practice. This type of therapy has the advantage of both supporting spiritual practice *and* having a specific, time limited goal, so that it is not intolerably expensive.

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Of course, this kind of psychological work would require a much larger understanding and aim than conventional psychotherapy, whose focus is on pathology and cure rather than transformation.

We pay for therapy. So it is actually a good thing that 'conventional' therapy is focused on pathology and cure, rather than 'transformation'.

'Pathology and cure' gives a focused, measurable goal. You know when it is time
to quit therapy, stop paying money, or when you can schedule fewer visits to the therapist because you are in less distress, and getting along better with family, friends, coworkers.

On the other hand, 'transformation' is a lifelong process. If you believe in
reincarnation/rebirth transformation is not limited to this present lifetime.

Therapy with the goal of 'transformation' would be never ending - and most of us cannot pay that kind of money with no end in sight. Most insurance companies will set a limit.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: zizlz ()
Date: June 09, 2019 11:42PM

Quote
2cents
It made me very aware of how I have resorted to spiritual bypassing when looking for that easy exit from arising issues within myself and others - ugg -such arrogance but it's all grist for the mill.

You and me both :) There's probably not many people (at least in the West) on the spiritual path who don't acquire spiritual arrogance (to compensate for feelings of alienation and low self-esteem, as the article says), even (or especially) after awakening. The power of the absolute one recognizes oneself to be during awakening is so awesome that if there's even a shred of ego left (which is probably 99.999% sure to be the case), that ego will become inflated by identifying with that power.

At least we're aware of our arrogance to some extent. I think that means there's hope for us. It's the unaware spiritual narcissist that's doomed to forever be stuck in the embryonic stage of awakening.

Corboy, very good points. From what little I know about it, schema therapy is a form of psychotherapy that equips you with effective tools you can keep using on yourself after therapy ends.

Agreed, it's not practical for the focus of psychotherapy to be spiritual transformation. It would be nice if an understanding of the spiritual path was more incorporated in psychology though. But I don't even think it's essential. I've had psychoanalytic psychotherapy and my therapist didn't know or understand much of spirituality nor was he interested in it or open to it. So I kept my experiences and thoughts regarding that field to myself. Nevertheless the therapy was very helpful.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: zizlz ()
Date: June 10, 2019 03:17AM

Corboy, in the quote below from the introduction of his book "Toward a psychology of awakening" it becomes a bit clearer what the author (John Welwood) means by "this kind of psychological work would require a much larger understanding and aim than conventional psychotherapy, whose focus is on pathology and cure rather than transformation." Further into the book it will probably be explained in more detail, but I'm not that far into the book yet.

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Chapter 2 translates into psychological terms the principle of coemergence, taken from the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, which sees imprisonment and freedom, confusion and sanity arising together as two sides of one reality. Drawing on this principle, this chapter shows how all the seemingly neurotic elements of our personality have a larger meaning, intention, or intelligence hidden within them. Discovering this can help us work with our conditioned personality as a path that leads forward, rather than as a pathology that keeps us stuck in the past. The key lies in regarding our personality structure not as a problem or an enemy—something to fix, condemn, or eradicate—but rather as a stage of development that provides a stepping-stone for further evolution.

Godhimself, you're right, this is not necessarily about therapy for deprogramming brainwashed cult members. It's more about how (especially in the individualist culture of the West) the spiritual path contains specific psychological pitfalls and how Western psychology is not very familiar with these yet. The issue of spiritual bypassing for example (a term coined by the article's author) is one of these pitfalls, and this specific issue plays a major role in the draw of Mooji's teachings.

What also becomes more obvious from the article is that after the initial spiritual awakening, one can still have all sorts of emotional/psychological/behavioral problems. For the awakening to become permanent and embodied, these have to be worked out. But because of our limited understanding of all this, we still have a fairy-tale idea of what awakening is. We tend to think having an awakening experience equates being fully enlightened. This can be very problematic. It can lead to people with already narcissistic and charismatic personalities (e.g. Mooji) to believe and act as if they are fully enlightened, and attract followers that buy into this delusion.

So the psychology the article is about is potentially valuable in helping to prevent cults like the M cult from coming into being.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2019 03:19AM by zizlz.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: June 10, 2019 07:39AM

That is a great article, Zizlz!

Everyone should definitely read the article: [tricycle.org]

I think the article explains a lot of things that I have struggled to articulate at times... things that have been very deeply concerning to me. Because I believe that vulnerable people are using Moo's teachings to try and escape (they use the word 'transcend') their daily problems and issues and that instead of escaping their problems, they end up making them much worse.

Problems do not just go away because you deny them. You can follow non-dual teachings as much as you like, but you still have to live in the real, material world with other people, finances, houses and jobs and the rest of it! This is the problem when people confuse 'absolute' existence with 'relative' existence.

There is the absolute truth that we are the pure self, beyond time and space and at one with the universe or God. Then there is the relative truth that we are living here and now in a body of flesh and blood. Both truths are valid and co-exist.

If you try to deny relative existence and the material world that goes with it, you will end up with psychosis, not enlightenment.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: yourenotanobject ()
Date: June 14, 2019 04:25AM

Sahara71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>
> There is the absolute truth that we are the
> pure self, beyond time and space and at one with
> the universe or God. Then there is the
> relative truth that we are living here and
> now in a body of flesh and blood. Both
> truths are valid and co-exist.
>
>


Even better...they're the exact same!wooohoooooooo!!!!!

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: June 14, 2019 06:35AM

Well, if they are exactly the same then Mooji is out of a job, because nothing needs explaining! (not that he teaches traditional Advaita anyway.)

The article in question makes the distinction between relative and absolute, but I think that personally, I don't abide by non-duality and I don't see the point to it..... but if it brings people happiness, then Ok, I don't mind.

Yeah, personally, after hundreds of hours of research, I can't really see the point to non-duality; having a reality that is like a reality but not really that much like reality - "neither real, nor unreal" I think the scriptures allude to it.

I've studied philosophy in the past and I find traditional Advaita Vedanta one of the most difficult philosophies to get my head around. Give me post-modernism or existentialism any day!

I can see that Advaita doctrine is ripe for corruption. You could easily manipulate it to mess with people's heads- which I think is what is happening with a lot of neo-advaitan teachers, including Moo.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: LightWave ()
Date: June 14, 2019 10:28AM

To Sahara71: in response to your comment:

"I can see that Advaita doctrine is ripe for corruption. You could easily manipulate it to mess with people's heads- which I think is what is happening with a lot of neo-advaitan teachers, including Moo."

It is ripe for seduction and corruption and it is seen all over this forum with many teachers. Of course, none of the so called enlightened teachers ever see or admit to their chicanery. Moo included as he and his entourage have yet to come out with the truth (if it is so) of his relationships with young female devotees and Krisabye.

These teachers are so easily and surely seduced by the sexual conditioning that they pose not threat to the ego. And no one is going to wake up.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Valma ()
Date: June 14, 2019 07:43PM

Here is an interesting testimonial from an ex-follower of Tony Robbins. Just change name of Tony Robbins in the text below with Moo or any other untrustworthy guru:


I recently had someone ask me whether I had received any benefit from my time in Tony Robbins’ cult.

My response: people don’t get involved in high-demand groups unless there is some perceived benefit. It’s just that it comes with a big cost.

Imagine your friends were talking about this amazing restaurant. You go and eat a delicious 5-course meal. Later you get food poisoning and are sick for 48 hours.

You tell your friends who recommended the place and they say they never got food poisoning there, maybe it was the flu. You doubt your own experience and try the restaurant again.

Again it is delicious. Again you are throwing up sick for 48 hours after.

You don’t know of anything as delicious and amazing in the whole world, so you keep going back. Sometimes you don’t get sick, and so you again doubt yourself. Maybe it’s just me, I have a weak immune system.

You create a community there, all your friends hang out there, so it’s hard to avoid now. It’s just what you do, eating and puking, that’s your new routine. The group says it’s just that the food is so pure you are purging toxins, it’s good for you.

It takes months or years to realize that no, it’s not you. Yes the food tastes great, but it’s also poison, even if it doesn’t poison everyone who tries it. You speak out against the restaurant, try to get health services to investigate, and lose a bunch of your friends in the process. And you have been eating there for so long, you no longer know what to eat.

So yes, of course people like Tony Robbins offer things that are valuable, but they package them with poison, and there is no way to get one without the other.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2019 07:44PM by Valma.

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