Yes Corboy, well said!


"Corboy note: that seeming "choice" we make to subjugate ourselves to a cult leader is a decision made in a dishonest context.
That context, that setting has been organized by the cult leader to work for him and against us.
Two, many of us are in crisis and disoriented when we cross paths with our future cult leader. In crisis we are in a *physical/psychological state* where
we do not have full use of our cognitive capacities and we *trauma bond* with
the first person who seems to offer safety and guidance. Its like ducklings
hatching and following the first thing they see, Momma Duck, or a robot."

Good points by all, and I didn't mean to be victim-shaming. I just wanted to re-emphasize the importance of seeing one's own power and responsibility. There will always be people like m as long as there's a marketplace for them, i.e. people looking for a savior as a fix to their problems while the real solution lies within. People may break free from the Mooji-spell only to walk right into the hands of another cult leader unless they realize this.

Also things aren't as simple as m being the evil perpetrator and the followers being the innocent victims, like I said. This is not victim-shaming (I hope). People get into cults in large part because of the community. And they suspend their critical thinking in large part due to peer pressure. You see, the cult members share their responsibility in this.

You can subjugate to m (and like has importantly been pointed out this can be due to trauma), but you can also take Mooji's pointers and take to heart the value in them, without subjugating to him. I was always creeped out by the vibe of the people surrounding m, that's for example why I never had the inclination to attend a satsang in real life. But I've watched many satsangs on video over the years and at a certain stage they were very valuable to me. And I've heard from many others who have benefited from m in this way. So is m malignant or benevolent? To a large extent, that's up to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2019 10:32PM by zizlz.

Zizlz, so you think that it is the people around m who are creepy but not m himself? Do you think m is doing something wrong...or is the not self responsible followers and his creepy enourage?
And in which way exactly did you benefit from m pointings?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2019 10:55PM by Ananas.

Ananas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zizlz, so you think that it is the people
> around m who are creepy but not m himself?

I didn't say they are creepy, I said they creeped me out. Reality is very much in the eye of the beholder.

> And in which way exactly did you benefit from m
> pointings?

After years of daily meditation and being part of a Zen Buddhism school, it was Mooji whose questions led me to start inquiring into what I overlooked all that time: what is it that is meditating, what is it that is seeking? What observes the observer? I led me to look into the original Vedanta teachings and do self-inquiry regularly and intensely. Something shifted, awareness became aware of itself for the first time. It's like a fish becoming aware of water for the first time, after years of swimming in it. I always assumed I was my psychological story and simply never questioned that assumption before. Without Mooji, I might still not have.

I'm by no means awakened or enlightened, but certainly in a way less asleep than before thanks to this. Fortunately Advaita Vedanta, unlike Mooji's teachings, provides systematic guidance in how to proceed from an initial awakening experience to a more lasting awakeness. It's certainly no instant enlightenment as popularized by m and other neo-advaita teachers. The way I see it, those teachers simply never proceeded beyond their initial awakening and therefore think that's all there is to achieve and teach. So I understand that from their point of view, enlightenment can be instant. But that's just their mistaken conception of what enlightenment is.

Zizlz, ok I understand and it makes very much sense. You see, you came from a background of daily meditating and being part of a zen buddhist school. This helps IMMENS and yes, I can see how this benefited you. Good for you, but most people have no clue of awakening and the no background one very well gets with practicing like you did. So for so many other people, without solid foundation, m's "teachings" can be dangerous.

Zizlz
It seems there are many assumptions and interpretations without having any direct experience nor knowledge about the doings besides some online material.
This is pretty superficial knowledge to draw upon and get to conclusions, by even disregarding first hand experiences shared.
I can only suggest again that one shall read though this forum and do some research before posting.

Okay, I have heard this many times now on youtube or fb, that it is M's pointings which are so valueable and that one should not mix the messanger with the message.

In my opinion these are dangerous statements, because there is so much FALSITY, CONFUSION, BENT TRUTH (example as discussed: "sometimes truth has to lie") and MISLEADING statements or conditioning mixed into m's "teachings" and the few true things he says are so much cluttered that it does harm. Its like you eat a big fat sugary cake all in once and say it's healthy because there was one fresh cherry on top, which is healthy...

Especially harmful if you come from an background of abuse, trauma, dependency, addiction or psychological issues. But also dangerous, if you are young, "innocent" and easily influenced, because you simply lack life experience.

Many people have reported that they lost intrest in life after they started watching m. They started neglecting their duties and responsibilities, they lost their joy, gave up their families, jobs, possesions to follow him or to sit at home watching youtubes endlessly.

It is dangerous because the TRUTH is so much cluttered. His intentions are not pure at all and this is mixed "into your meal" if you follow him...

Ok, here I talk about effects on people who only follow m ONLINE and do not go to see him in person or spend any money...Of course there is so much more harm coming up if you go see him!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2019 11:35PM by Ananas.

Joyfree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zizlz
> It seems there are many assumptions and
> interpretations without having any direct
> experience nor knowledge about the doings besides
> some online material.
> This is pretty superficial knowledge to draw upon
> and get to conclusions, by even disregarding first
> hand experiences shared.
> I can only suggest again that one shall read
> though this forum and do some research before
> posting.

Hi Joyfree, I'm sorry you've misunderstood my post so much. In no way do I disregard first hand experiences of people who have been victimized by m. I'm just acknowledging that there are also many people who have benefited from him and that the main problem is with being a "follower" in the first place. As long as you're a follower, you'll be led astray.

Ananas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zizlz, ok I understand and it makes very
> much sense. You see, you came from a background of
> daily meditating and being part of a zen buddhist
> school. This helps IMMENS and yes, I can see how
> this benefited you. Good for you, but most people
> have no clue of awakening and the no background
> one very well gets with practicing like you did.
> So for so many other people, without solid
> foundation, m's "teachings" can be dangerous.

You may be right about that. If you've read my previous posts going back months, you'll know that I do see serious problems with Mooji. But I also see value in his teachings, and if I hope to achieve anything by posting here, it's that people don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I've been part of several cult-like groups myself over a decade ago, and if there's one thing I've learned it's that you don't become impervious to brainwashing by simply seeing the group leaders as evil and dismissing everything as nonsense. That's not critical thinking, that's victim-mentality, which is another way of abnegating your authority, the very mindset that makes you vulnerable to brainwashing.

Zizlz
I did not misunderstood your posting in any way.
I do also not misunderstand you stating “the main problem is being a follower in the first place”
It shows a “one way” thinking.
To be a “follower” requires that there is someone who wants to be followed.
So, I’ll rather suggest “the main problem is that such predators exist, that take advantage of vulnerable people”.