I am copying here a post made by "moviestar" on the stevepavlina webforum because it saves me time trying to writ it all out myself. I apologise if this could be considered plagiarism but i am sure the author of the piece would not object to me placing it here.

"All eastern philosophies talk about a thoughtless state. They tell you that you are somehow separated from your thoughts and you can shut them down. Through practices of meditation and awareness you can gain a higher level of being, enlightenment being the highest form of mental functioning.

I would like to question that and invite you to a discussion.

What is this thoughtless state everybody is talking about? I've come to a realization of how absurd this concept is.
Anyone that has been practicing meditation feels what it is like and has an idea where to go with it. It feels very peaceful and blissful and you have a desire to maintain that state. But is this experience what we are looking for? Is there anything like no-thought?

How do you know you are in thoughtless state?
The moment you look at your thoughts you are thinking! There is no way you can look at thoughts without thinking. The observer, in my oppinion, is an illusion. Thought is all there is. If thought ends, you come to an end. You die. When you experience the illusion of thoughtless state there is something there. You are actually remembering something, you are thinking.

What is thought anyway? Is there any way of looking at thought? How can you separate yourself from thought? And why do people buy this concept and make self-proclaimed gurus rich in an going cycle of search for the ultimate bliss that takes on since the beginning of humankind?

So, let's discredit 1000 years of eastern philosophy here or prove me that it is not an illusion. "



So that was the post made by "moviestar". I invite everybody to please explain what exactly they mean when they wax on and on about a so-called thought-free state of conscious awareness that is obtained by meditation or watching the thinker. Once we have established that such a state is conscious, we can do away with ideas about reflection on the thoughts you are thinking from moment to moment. If we cannot establish that such a state is conscious, we will have to admit that such a thing is impossible.

Most often the "thoughtless state" is simply a hypnotic trance state.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also see[www.culteducation.com]

Yes, I would be willing to talk with you about the 'thoughtless state'.

There is absolutely no 'hypnosis' involved...it's simply not necessary and serves no practical value.

Please elaborate then.

What kind of response would satisfy you, Nad?

Oh, probably something along the lines of, "yes there is a thoughtless state. It is the gap between thoughts." with a bunch of reasons how such a thing can exist.

I happen to believe there is a thoughtless state. It is called deep sleep. But meditation producing a state of non-thinking? No way. Daydreaming is not thought-free. If someone believes they are not thinking they have just thought that they were in a state where they weren't thinking - hence they were thinking but not paying attention. I would say it is completely impossible to be conscious and not thinking because the brain is constantly processing information that is occurring subliminally.

There. Anything else?

Nad:

Despite what "left_of_the_dial" said, in many groups the "thoughtless state" is essentially self-hypnosis or trance induction through some sort of group practice.

Of course those involved in reaching such disassociated states don't recognize that it is a hypnotic state. They prefer to characterize it otherwise. For example, some might say that other groups practice forms of hypnosis, "but not my group" etc.

rrmoderator, are you Rick Ross?

Ok, so you are convinced that it is a hypnotic state. That was what i thought too. I simply just don't understand how it can be possible to be consciously aware and not thinking.

But Rick, i have some questions for you. I have seen postings about Amma, the hugging saint, on this website. You are probably not aware that there are a series of books that are dialogues with Amma about various subjects. I find it completely impossible to acknowledge that a non-educated simple villiage girl can know so much about so many topics with a degree of wisdom i have hitherto not seen in many other places. How do you explain this?

Also, how do you explain religious ecstasy where people who pray and concentrate on God go into a state of suspended animation? Their respiration and heart rate are suspended and they cannot be roused from this state even if people prick them with needles or put candle flames next to their skin.

Mystics, those of the Catholic tradition who pray and think of God constantly, and other mystics of different traditions, notably Ramakrishna, were regularly observed to go into this suspended animation state. How can this condition be explained?

Nad:

Yes this is Rick Ross.

See [www.culteducation.com]

See [www.culteducation.com]

Quite a few contradictions regarding Amma explored at this link.

Amma has praised Sai Baba, who is a rather notorious guru, reportedly both a fraud and sexual predator.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Typically, many of the controversial gurus have copied each other and/or earlier more credible gurus. Nothing really new about Amma. And books can be written with quite a bit of assistance from "ghost writers". Some "cult leaders" historically have hired professionals to help them with books.

If you research hypnotic trance states you will find that such altered states of consciousness can lead to pain reduction, disassociated and highly suggestible states, etc.

Okay Rick, but how do you explain how concentrating your mind on God can lead to states of respiratory and heart rate decrease to such an extent that the person is virtually dead? Does hypnosis lead to such a thing? And if it does, explain how that is possible physiologically. And what the connections between hypnosis and physiological death are in morbid states of being.