Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
Ex-Murid
()
Date: June 04, 2009 01:12PM
Sufism is often described as the mystical branch of Islam. It is portrayed by some Muslims and the press as a peaceful, mystical alternative to extremism as well as traditionally conservative cultural interpretations of Islam. Perhaps this is true in some respect. But not in the West.
Sufism has appealed to Western Muslims for a the better part of two decades. Many of them are the children of immigrants, mainly from South Asia, but others are converts to Islam. Although there are Sufis from working class backgrounds, in the West, they tend to be very middle class and upper class people. Sufism also had a major influence on people who converted to Islam in the 60s.
In the wake of the disintegration of the fundamentalist Salafi movement, a movement known as 'Traditional Islam' has come in to take its place. Traditional Islam places importance on adhering to classical interpretations of Islamic law with the added dimension of following the shaykhs, or wise men, of the Sufi brotherhoods, known as tariqahs or tariqat. Seekers, known as dervishes or murids, take pledges of loyalty to their shaykhs, called a bayah. Different shaykhs use bayah differently. Some use it to exact extreme discipline and control on their murids, in the name of purifying them, while others are quite casual and do not interfere in the lives of their dervishes.
Traditional Islam gained a following in North America and the UK with the emergence of a man named Hamza Yusuf (Mark Hanson) from the United States. He is the founder of the Zaytuna Institute in California and a world known speaker and teacher of Islam. Although a bad experience from his youth causes him to place some distance between himself and the tariqat, it is Yusuf's Sufi-friendly teaching, his American evangelical style of teaching, and his middle class approachability that opened up a new generation to Sufism. Yusuf played a key role in introducing and promoting some of today's 'best known' Sufi teachers in North America and the UK. Among the men that he or his early students and followers introduced to the scene were Muhammad al-Yaqoubi of Syria (Shadhilli), Nuh Ha Mim Keller (Shadhilli), an American in Jordan, and Habib Ali al Jifri of Yemen (Ba-Alawi). Other Sufis who became popular in the wake of the rise of Traditional Islam are the many branches of Naqshbandism, mainly the Cypriot branch, the Jerrahis of Turkey, the Chishtis, the Mevlevis, and Sidi Jamal al Rifa'i of Jerusalem (Shadhilli), whose group has been written about on these forums before. An existing tariqah that had some limited appeal to Western Muslims was the Murabitun.
The past ten years have seen the rise and growth of the TM movement, as well as the growth of Sufism. The past two or three years, we are now seeing people leaving these brotherhoods, the movement and even Islam in droves. The problems we found are the same that you find in most any cult: pressure to give all or some of our earnings, inheritance, and other monies to the shaykhs; dodgy business and land schemes; outrageous claims of spiritual powers; sexual exploitation; and the forced isolation of followers in some groups. (As is usually the case, it is the women who are subject to most abuses.)
Diva behavior is common among Muslim leaders, but it seems as though the shaykhs take it to a new level. Demanding money and gifts is de rigeur, but some have taken it to new heights, demanding first class plane tickets everywhere they travel, and even that homes be purchased for them. The grumbling about ‘rock stars’ and ‘milk shaykhs’ has been going on for years.
Our tariqat had the added dimension of the authority of Islam. Our shaykhs are or claim to be authorities in Islamic law, and so their pronouncements carried the weight of heaven and hell, literally.
We know that some of the ex-murids have spent a long time online googling cults, sufis, tariqa, the names of shaykhs, and so on looking for stories from fellow survivors. You're not alone. We are here. We are the ones who walked away, we are the parents and families of those who are still in deep. Islamic law is telling us to be silent out of respect for the scholarly class. There is no place on the internet except for a few blogs where the issue of Islamic cults is being addressed. The blog scandals about the Sufis are just the beginning of people who say they're not going to be silent anymore. You're not crazy, you're not a bad Muslim. It is okay to leave. If something seems wrong to you that a shaykh is doing, it probably is.
Sufism has appealed to Western Muslims for a the better part of two decades. Many of them are the children of immigrants, mainly from South Asia, but others are converts to Islam. Although there are Sufis from working class backgrounds, in the West, they tend to be very middle class and upper class people. Sufism also had a major influence on people who converted to Islam in the 60s.
In the wake of the disintegration of the fundamentalist Salafi movement, a movement known as 'Traditional Islam' has come in to take its place. Traditional Islam places importance on adhering to classical interpretations of Islamic law with the added dimension of following the shaykhs, or wise men, of the Sufi brotherhoods, known as tariqahs or tariqat. Seekers, known as dervishes or murids, take pledges of loyalty to their shaykhs, called a bayah. Different shaykhs use bayah differently. Some use it to exact extreme discipline and control on their murids, in the name of purifying them, while others are quite casual and do not interfere in the lives of their dervishes.
Traditional Islam gained a following in North America and the UK with the emergence of a man named Hamza Yusuf (Mark Hanson) from the United States. He is the founder of the Zaytuna Institute in California and a world known speaker and teacher of Islam. Although a bad experience from his youth causes him to place some distance between himself and the tariqat, it is Yusuf's Sufi-friendly teaching, his American evangelical style of teaching, and his middle class approachability that opened up a new generation to Sufism. Yusuf played a key role in introducing and promoting some of today's 'best known' Sufi teachers in North America and the UK. Among the men that he or his early students and followers introduced to the scene were Muhammad al-Yaqoubi of Syria (Shadhilli), Nuh Ha Mim Keller (Shadhilli), an American in Jordan, and Habib Ali al Jifri of Yemen (Ba-Alawi). Other Sufis who became popular in the wake of the rise of Traditional Islam are the many branches of Naqshbandism, mainly the Cypriot branch, the Jerrahis of Turkey, the Chishtis, the Mevlevis, and Sidi Jamal al Rifa'i of Jerusalem (Shadhilli), whose group has been written about on these forums before. An existing tariqah that had some limited appeal to Western Muslims was the Murabitun.
The past ten years have seen the rise and growth of the TM movement, as well as the growth of Sufism. The past two or three years, we are now seeing people leaving these brotherhoods, the movement and even Islam in droves. The problems we found are the same that you find in most any cult: pressure to give all or some of our earnings, inheritance, and other monies to the shaykhs; dodgy business and land schemes; outrageous claims of spiritual powers; sexual exploitation; and the forced isolation of followers in some groups. (As is usually the case, it is the women who are subject to most abuses.)
Diva behavior is common among Muslim leaders, but it seems as though the shaykhs take it to a new level. Demanding money and gifts is de rigeur, but some have taken it to new heights, demanding first class plane tickets everywhere they travel, and even that homes be purchased for them. The grumbling about ‘rock stars’ and ‘milk shaykhs’ has been going on for years.
Our tariqat had the added dimension of the authority of Islam. Our shaykhs are or claim to be authorities in Islamic law, and so their pronouncements carried the weight of heaven and hell, literally.
We know that some of the ex-murids have spent a long time online googling cults, sufis, tariqa, the names of shaykhs, and so on looking for stories from fellow survivors. You're not alone. We are here. We are the ones who walked away, we are the parents and families of those who are still in deep. Islamic law is telling us to be silent out of respect for the scholarly class. There is no place on the internet except for a few blogs where the issue of Islamic cults is being addressed. The blog scandals about the Sufis are just the beginning of people who say they're not going to be silent anymore. You're not crazy, you're not a bad Muslim. It is okay to leave. If something seems wrong to you that a shaykh is doing, it probably is.
Re: Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
Ex-Murid
()
Date: June 05, 2009 05:11PM
If you're a Muslim and you want to join a tariqah, well, godspeed. But you should know both sides of the story and know what you're getting into. We didn't have anyone to warn us. Make an informed decision. This is your mind, your body, your money and your spirituality and heart you are putting into these people's hands. I collected some links of people's stories so that you can read for yourselves.
Sidi Muhammad Sa'id al-Jamal – Shadhilli, Jerusalem
[forum.culteducation.com]
[www.angelfire.com]
Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi al-Hasani – Shadhilli, Syria
[standsfree.blogspot.com]
Sidi Muhammad Sa'id al-Jamal – Shadhilli, Jerusalem
[forum.culteducation.com]
[www.angelfire.com]
Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi al-Hasani – Shadhilli, Syria
[standsfree.blogspot.com]
Re: Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
Ex-Murid
()
Date: June 30, 2009 05:07AM
Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Shadhili Jordan; Besa Krasniqi, Shadhili, Jordan; Hedaya Hartford, Shadhili, Jordan
More people are leaving and speaking out about the Nuh Keller cult in Jordan. By far, this one is probably the most influential of the tariqat among the Muslims in Europe and the US. He has thousands of students spread out around the world. His dervishes run a popular online Islamic academy and an Arabic institute that draw in tens of thousands of non-Sufi Muslims and non-Muslims every year, spreading his particular, somewhat odd brand of Islam. They hold land and property in Jordan, and are involved in several successful business ventures.
His friend, Hedaya 'Um Khayr' Hartford has built herself a reputation as the marriage counselor par excellence to the Muslims, and has authored several books and taught online classes about proper marriages. This is despite the fact that in the last year and a half, Keller, Krasniqi, and Hartford have overseen or ordered more than 30 couples to divorce from the Jordan group alone. If you are Muslim you know that divorce is simply not that common, so that one small group sees 30 divorces in a little over one year.
[nuhkeller.blogspot.com] These are the words of the shaykh, his teachings, taken from his recorded talks, books, and other writing or public speeches. What sort of religious leader, Muslim or otherwise, counsels men to get rid of their wives for watching religious shows on television? Nuh Keller does. [nuhkeller.blogspot.com]
[salafiburnout.wordpress.com] Many personal anecdotes and stories about Keller here, as well as al-Yaqoubi, but also a lot of internet flaming.
[umm-ah.blogspot.com] A former murid writing about her time in Jordan.
[myownfreemind.blogspot.com] one of the many discarded wives writes about her journey to find healing from the abuse she suffered from her husband, Hartford, Keller, and Krasniqi
Shaykh Abdul Karim Kubrisi, Naqshbandi (Neksibendi), USA
[www.nytimes.com]
Shaykh Syed Mubarak Ali Shah Jilani al Hashmi, Qadiri, Pakistan & USA (known as Muslims of the Americas, MOA and Jamat al Fuqra)
This group is pretty well known, because of Hashmi's connection to the death of Daniel Pearl. They are infamous among black American Sunni Muslims for being violent and threatening, but also with the authorities for their militant, separatist ways. Despite that, they maintain websites for Muslims that give the illusion that they are a regular, friendly Sufi group. Muslims who are reading this - even though some of these links below are written by people who dislike Muslims, they aren't saying anything that Muslim community leaders don't already know or say themselves about MOA. This group uses the front of Sufism and Islam to recruit new members. If the Muslims won't speak up about this, it is clear that those who have a desire to protect the US will do so instead.
[www.alfuqraexposed.com]
[slantedright.blogspot.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[politicsofcp.blogspot.com]
[web.archive.org]
[www.foxnews.com]
[talkislam.info]
[singularvoice.wordpress.com] Some of the tragic results of the early movement in the 70s that affected the children and women who were dragged into it
[www.adl.org]
Healing???
[spiritual-health.org] This is the only website or support group available to Muslim survivors of Sufi cults that is written by a Muslim.
Muslims, why aren't you acknowledging that there are cults within the religion? Why is the response simply to tell a victim "you weren't following the true Islam?" There is no knowledge of these cults in the regular cult recovery networks. Many people outside of Islam don't understand the basics of our religion, so they are really unable in some instances to help us. So the only option is someone who won't help or someone who can't?
The inability or unwillingness of the Muslims to deal with real live cults within the religion - especially ones like Keller and Yaqoubi that pass for mainstream - is going to result in people leaving Islam altogether. When Yaqoubi and Keller are still being invited to ISNA events or to big events in the UK to speak, in the presence of the media, as authoritative, authentic voices of the deen, that is a problem. It means that Muslims are willfully blind to the realities. The victims of Islamic cults are being left in the cold.
More people are leaving and speaking out about the Nuh Keller cult in Jordan. By far, this one is probably the most influential of the tariqat among the Muslims in Europe and the US. He has thousands of students spread out around the world. His dervishes run a popular online Islamic academy and an Arabic institute that draw in tens of thousands of non-Sufi Muslims and non-Muslims every year, spreading his particular, somewhat odd brand of Islam. They hold land and property in Jordan, and are involved in several successful business ventures.
His friend, Hedaya 'Um Khayr' Hartford has built herself a reputation as the marriage counselor par excellence to the Muslims, and has authored several books and taught online classes about proper marriages. This is despite the fact that in the last year and a half, Keller, Krasniqi, and Hartford have overseen or ordered more than 30 couples to divorce from the Jordan group alone. If you are Muslim you know that divorce is simply not that common, so that one small group sees 30 divorces in a little over one year.
[nuhkeller.blogspot.com] These are the words of the shaykh, his teachings, taken from his recorded talks, books, and other writing or public speeches. What sort of religious leader, Muslim or otherwise, counsels men to get rid of their wives for watching religious shows on television? Nuh Keller does. [nuhkeller.blogspot.com]
[salafiburnout.wordpress.com] Many personal anecdotes and stories about Keller here, as well as al-Yaqoubi, but also a lot of internet flaming.
[umm-ah.blogspot.com] A former murid writing about her time in Jordan.
[myownfreemind.blogspot.com] one of the many discarded wives writes about her journey to find healing from the abuse she suffered from her husband, Hartford, Keller, and Krasniqi
Shaykh Abdul Karim Kubrisi, Naqshbandi (Neksibendi), USA
[www.nytimes.com]
Shaykh Syed Mubarak Ali Shah Jilani al Hashmi, Qadiri, Pakistan & USA (known as Muslims of the Americas, MOA and Jamat al Fuqra)
This group is pretty well known, because of Hashmi's connection to the death of Daniel Pearl. They are infamous among black American Sunni Muslims for being violent and threatening, but also with the authorities for their militant, separatist ways. Despite that, they maintain websites for Muslims that give the illusion that they are a regular, friendly Sufi group. Muslims who are reading this - even though some of these links below are written by people who dislike Muslims, they aren't saying anything that Muslim community leaders don't already know or say themselves about MOA. This group uses the front of Sufism and Islam to recruit new members. If the Muslims won't speak up about this, it is clear that those who have a desire to protect the US will do so instead.
[www.alfuqraexposed.com]
[slantedright.blogspot.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[politicsofcp.blogspot.com]
[web.archive.org]
[www.foxnews.com]
[talkislam.info]
[singularvoice.wordpress.com] Some of the tragic results of the early movement in the 70s that affected the children and women who were dragged into it
[www.adl.org]
Healing???
[spiritual-health.org] This is the only website or support group available to Muslim survivors of Sufi cults that is written by a Muslim.
Muslims, why aren't you acknowledging that there are cults within the religion? Why is the response simply to tell a victim "you weren't following the true Islam?" There is no knowledge of these cults in the regular cult recovery networks. Many people outside of Islam don't understand the basics of our religion, so they are really unable in some instances to help us. So the only option is someone who won't help or someone who can't?
The inability or unwillingness of the Muslims to deal with real live cults within the religion - especially ones like Keller and Yaqoubi that pass for mainstream - is going to result in people leaving Islam altogether. When Yaqoubi and Keller are still being invited to ISNA events or to big events in the UK to speak, in the presence of the media, as authoritative, authentic voices of the deen, that is a problem. It means that Muslims are willfully blind to the realities. The victims of Islamic cults are being left in the cold.
Re: Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: June 30, 2009 05:17AM
Thank you for posting this. That's my story you linked to here in this forum.Quote
Ex-Murid
If you're a Muslim and you want to join a tariqah, well, godspeed. But you should know both sides of the story and know what you're getting into. We didn't have anyone to warn us. Make an informed decision. This is your mind, your body, your money and your spirituality and heart you are putting into these people's hands. I collected some links of people's stories so that you can read for yourselves.
Sidi Muhammad Sa'id al-Jamal – Shadhilli, Jerusalem
[forum.culteducation.com]
[www.angelfire.com]
Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi al-Hasani – Shadhilli, Syria
[standsfree.blogspot.com]
We need more stories from ex-members.
Re: Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: June 30, 2009 10:16PM
Additional Resources
Anyone who is interested in Sufism should get and read a book by Professor Mark Sedgwick, entitled Against The Modern World, a study of a movement called 'traditionalism'
Many forms of Sufism are propagated by people whose ideology is traditionalist and who filter a distorted form of Sufism through the traditionalist lens. Persons who are not already practicing Islam and who do not know how to read original sources in Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, or Urdu are often drawn to intepreters of Sufism who are actually traditionalist, but who are not always candid about this.
Anab Whitehouse has written a book about abuses of spirituality within Sufism and it is entitled The Sufi Lighthouse. He noted that his own abusive leader had impeccable background, both spiritually and academicially, had the ability to lead groups to bliss and ecstacy, yet turned out to love influencing people and had a diabolical talent for lying and turning families against each other.
There is a website traditionalists.org and a blog associated with it, both run by Professor Sedgwick which are very helpful.
If you go to the search button at the top right of this window, and then type 'sufi' and select 'all dates' this will give a wide range of information already available on this message board.
Additional information can be found if you look for 'sufi' on the website Darwinina.com
and do a search on 'idries shah' on google and put 'androids in love' into the exact phrase slot.
In his book, Introduction to Sufism, Sedgwick made it very clear that in its original context, Sufi practice was always done as part of an ongoing participation in Islam and life in an Islamic community. It was never, ever meant to be secretive in order to preserve some sort of cloak and dagger agenda, or to give mystique to its members.
And Sufi Pirs, Murshids or Shiekhs were never supposed to tell follower to ignore the practices of Islam.
As an example of how one traditionalist European Sufi manifested distortions, Sedgwick tells of Fritjof Schuon of Switzerland.
Schuon's group was orginally a branch of the al-Alawiyya. Sedgwick tells us that it is a matter of debate whether Schuon had actually been given a true idjaza, a credential which empowers the recipient to act as a representative of the Shiekh and initiate new members into the order. Schuon had spent a mere few months with the shiekh.
In Switzerland in the late forties, Schuon began to relax the obligations of his followers to follow sharia. "Schuon's view was more permissive' wrote Sedgwick; 'Schuon believed that esoteric practice was what really mattered and that its exoteric framework (following Sharia)was less important.'
"...Schuon's followers were no longer fasting Ramadan. By 1950 this report wasbeing repeated independently by both Valsan and Hartung..
"In addition to the failure to observe the Ramadan fast, Valsan also regretted the peformance of the ritual prayer at irregular times and improper ablutions before prayer.
Sedgwick notes that in the West, it can be difficult at best to perform all that is prescribed by Sharia but that arguing that sharia can be dispensed with because of "current cyclical conditions" or because the time of prayer(can be changed) because it is only an "exoteric formality that can be "essentialized"
"Most Muslims aware of conditions in the West would sympathize with the former situation (difficulties of practice in the West if one is far enough north that daylight hours during Ramadan would be so many hours longer than further South, in the Near and Far East) as to endanger health for anyone abstaining from food and water.
Sedgwick tells us, that the second reason (that sharia is merely exoteric and can be dispensed with or modified at whim) would scandalize almost any Muslim.
"It would bring to mind the well known story of the shaykh travelling through the desert with his exhausted followers during Ramadan. Suddenly an oasis with a cool, clear pool and date palms laden with ripe dates appears from nowhere. "Help yourselves!" says the voice of God. "You are so dedicated to my way that you no longer need worry about formalities."
"I take refuge in God from Satan the accursed!" replies the Shaykh.
"How did you know it was me?" asks Satan (for indeed it was him)
"Partly because the way your voice sounded" replies the Shaykh, "and partly because I know that God never releases anyone from observing the Sharia."
Sedgwick Against the Modern World page 125-126
Anyone who is interested in Sufism should get and read a book by Professor Mark Sedgwick, entitled Against The Modern World, a study of a movement called 'traditionalism'
Many forms of Sufism are propagated by people whose ideology is traditionalist and who filter a distorted form of Sufism through the traditionalist lens. Persons who are not already practicing Islam and who do not know how to read original sources in Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, or Urdu are often drawn to intepreters of Sufism who are actually traditionalist, but who are not always candid about this.
Anab Whitehouse has written a book about abuses of spirituality within Sufism and it is entitled The Sufi Lighthouse. He noted that his own abusive leader had impeccable background, both spiritually and academicially, had the ability to lead groups to bliss and ecstacy, yet turned out to love influencing people and had a diabolical talent for lying and turning families against each other.
There is a website traditionalists.org and a blog associated with it, both run by Professor Sedgwick which are very helpful.
If you go to the search button at the top right of this window, and then type 'sufi' and select 'all dates' this will give a wide range of information already available on this message board.
Additional information can be found if you look for 'sufi' on the website Darwinina.com
and do a search on 'idries shah' on google and put 'androids in love' into the exact phrase slot.
In his book, Introduction to Sufism, Sedgwick made it very clear that in its original context, Sufi practice was always done as part of an ongoing participation in Islam and life in an Islamic community. It was never, ever meant to be secretive in order to preserve some sort of cloak and dagger agenda, or to give mystique to its members.
And Sufi Pirs, Murshids or Shiekhs were never supposed to tell follower to ignore the practices of Islam.
As an example of how one traditionalist European Sufi manifested distortions, Sedgwick tells of Fritjof Schuon of Switzerland.
Schuon's group was orginally a branch of the al-Alawiyya. Sedgwick tells us that it is a matter of debate whether Schuon had actually been given a true idjaza, a credential which empowers the recipient to act as a representative of the Shiekh and initiate new members into the order. Schuon had spent a mere few months with the shiekh.
In Switzerland in the late forties, Schuon began to relax the obligations of his followers to follow sharia. "Schuon's view was more permissive' wrote Sedgwick; 'Schuon believed that esoteric practice was what really mattered and that its exoteric framework (following Sharia)was less important.'
"...Schuon's followers were no longer fasting Ramadan. By 1950 this report wasbeing repeated independently by both Valsan and Hartung..
"In addition to the failure to observe the Ramadan fast, Valsan also regretted the peformance of the ritual prayer at irregular times and improper ablutions before prayer.
Sedgwick notes that in the West, it can be difficult at best to perform all that is prescribed by Sharia but that arguing that sharia can be dispensed with because of "current cyclical conditions" or because the time of prayer(can be changed) because it is only an "exoteric formality that can be "essentialized"
"Most Muslims aware of conditions in the West would sympathize with the former situation (difficulties of practice in the West if one is far enough north that daylight hours during Ramadan would be so many hours longer than further South, in the Near and Far East) as to endanger health for anyone abstaining from food and water.
Sedgwick tells us, that the second reason (that sharia is merely exoteric and can be dispensed with or modified at whim) would scandalize almost any Muslim.
"It would bring to mind the well known story of the shaykh travelling through the desert with his exhausted followers during Ramadan. Suddenly an oasis with a cool, clear pool and date palms laden with ripe dates appears from nowhere. "Help yourselves!" says the voice of God. "You are so dedicated to my way that you no longer need worry about formalities."
"I take refuge in God from Satan the accursed!" replies the Shaykh.
"How did you know it was me?" asks Satan (for indeed it was him)
"Partly because the way your voice sounded" replies the Shaykh, "and partly because I know that God never releases anyone from observing the Sharia."
Sedgwick Against the Modern World page 125-126
Re: Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
Ex-Murid
()
Date: July 01, 2009 02:02PM
Thank you for posting this. That's my story you linked to here in this forum.
We need more stories from ex-members.[/quote]
Agreed and that's why some poeple are starting. You were the first person that I and other ex-followers know of who spoke out from a shariah following tariqa. I want you to know that your link was shared between other women who were abused in bad marriages and money schemes, and it was like "Ah, someone else who went through this and lived and is not afraid to tell..." Very helpful, I think. Thank you.
Re: Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
oncebitten
()
Date: August 04, 2009 05:58AM
"Traditional Islam gained a following in North America and the UK with the emergence of a man named Hamza Yusuf (Mark Hanson) from the United States. He is the founder of the Zaytuna Institute in California and a world known speaker and teacher of Islam."
I think people like this and so called traditional 'legitimate scholars' will send you for some of the biggest head trips.
One reason is they talk at such a high intellectual level you conceed to their opinions. He mixes in many non islamic scientific and literary references, many university muslims as quite stary eyed by him.
He is however of the opinion that a non scholar's have no right to try and and interpret the Qur'an as they do not know Arabic grammer, such much for the heart and human conscience. Also that if someone does not do the prescribed prayer in the exact way detailed, his prayers however well intentioned will not be accepted. Talk about placing yourself as the policeman and intermediary of God. Forget the fact that they admittedly do not know how Mohammed actually did them.
For all the years studying grammar and memorizing trivia they can not tell you why an all merciful God would put 90% of the population in hell for eternity.
I think people like this and so called traditional 'legitimate scholars' will send you for some of the biggest head trips.
One reason is they talk at such a high intellectual level you conceed to their opinions. He mixes in many non islamic scientific and literary references, many university muslims as quite stary eyed by him.
He is however of the opinion that a non scholar's have no right to try and and interpret the Qur'an as they do not know Arabic grammer, such much for the heart and human conscience. Also that if someone does not do the prescribed prayer in the exact way detailed, his prayers however well intentioned will not be accepted. Talk about placing yourself as the policeman and intermediary of God. Forget the fact that they admittedly do not know how Mohammed actually did them.
For all the years studying grammar and memorizing trivia they can not tell you why an all merciful God would put 90% of the population in hell for eternity.
Re: Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: August 04, 2009 11:20PM
For what it is worth:
For years I used to see adverts for a group that might have been this one. THe leader was western born, had a professional degree and I think this was the leader.
Sidi Muhammad Sa'id al-Jamal – Shadhilli, Jerusalem
At least they refered to their leader as 'Sidi'
I had an interest in warm woolen clothing and on a google search some years ago, landed on their website and saw a woolen djellba for sale at a whoppingly high price. I think it was over $200 USD and there was no picture. The caption said that it was imported by Sidi and those wearing them felt 'protected'.
It was out of my price range, and even if I had had that kind of money, I would never have spent that kind of dough on something sight unseen.
The website is not there anymore. I wondered just what kind of devotion they had to Sidi and whether Sidi had a relative who sold such garments on the cheap, resulting in a splendid profit when these same were sold at high mark up to worshipful murids in the US.
For years I used to see adverts for a group that might have been this one. THe leader was western born, had a professional degree and I think this was the leader.
Sidi Muhammad Sa'id al-Jamal – Shadhilli, Jerusalem
At least they refered to their leader as 'Sidi'
I had an interest in warm woolen clothing and on a google search some years ago, landed on their website and saw a woolen djellba for sale at a whoppingly high price. I think it was over $200 USD and there was no picture. The caption said that it was imported by Sidi and those wearing them felt 'protected'.
It was out of my price range, and even if I had had that kind of money, I would never have spent that kind of dough on something sight unseen.
The website is not there anymore. I wondered just what kind of devotion they had to Sidi and whether Sidi had a relative who sold such garments on the cheap, resulting in a splendid profit when these same were sold at high mark up to worshipful murids in the US.
Re: Sufi Muslim Survivors - you're not alone
Posted by:
oncebitten
()
Date: August 07, 2009 09:45PM
Hey corboy,
I would actually be tempted to say that you can not really find any site on the internet about sufism that doesn't include more than one skeleton in the closet. When they try and and get money out of you it is rarely so overt. I was visiting one spiritual order for about two years but I liked another one better, not the people necisarily, but the order itself. The teacher there was perturbed that i didn't join and actually said to me 'we need your money'. He was trying to get the funds together to get their own building, having done that he would obviously need to maintain it, so where would it end.
There is a mystique about being a Shaikh (spiritual teacher) and how they all supposedly transmit spiritual energy (baraka) and can evoke spiritual states just being around them. Supposedly the ideal way to be around them is to be totally fawning, subservient and take on whatever they have to say. This is all in the classical and modern literature.
The first weekend retreat I had gone to was this one guy whom I really respected because of the impression i had been given from of the books he had written. Needless to say I spent the weekend trying to glean anything i could from him like a good little boy. A year later I found out that years before i met him he had been in a huge sexual scandal that had not been spread around by his students that had left because they didn't want to 'backbite' him, even it was true.
I have also seen teachers allude to being in spiritual states and having special insight when that was definetely not the case. Also letting people praise them for it in front of the group.
Any westerner who wants to get involved in this stuff should really tread lightly and not get sucked into anything.
I would actually be tempted to say that you can not really find any site on the internet about sufism that doesn't include more than one skeleton in the closet. When they try and and get money out of you it is rarely so overt. I was visiting one spiritual order for about two years but I liked another one better, not the people necisarily, but the order itself. The teacher there was perturbed that i didn't join and actually said to me 'we need your money'. He was trying to get the funds together to get their own building, having done that he would obviously need to maintain it, so where would it end.
There is a mystique about being a Shaikh (spiritual teacher) and how they all supposedly transmit spiritual energy (baraka) and can evoke spiritual states just being around them. Supposedly the ideal way to be around them is to be totally fawning, subservient and take on whatever they have to say. This is all in the classical and modern literature.
The first weekend retreat I had gone to was this one guy whom I really respected because of the impression i had been given from of the books he had written. Needless to say I spent the weekend trying to glean anything i could from him like a good little boy. A year later I found out that years before i met him he had been in a huge sexual scandal that had not been spread around by his students that had left because they didn't want to 'backbite' him, even it was true.
I have also seen teachers allude to being in spiritual states and having special insight when that was definetely not the case. Also letting people praise them for it in front of the group.
Any westerner who wants to get involved in this stuff should really tread lightly and not get sucked into anything.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.