I love these videos and others like it that claim some sort of scientific proof and end with the classic hare krishna sell: [youtu.be]

It's astounding how many videos like this abound on the internet. Videos claiming that nuclear weapons were being used in ancient india and that flying saucers and what not were somehow a daily occurrence in vedic times. Even the fairly recent dwarka discovery which clearly amounted to nothing mire than what appeared to be natural formations and a piece of drift wood dated to 7500 years ago (way before the time of the so-called krishna avatar)... it's all so silly and pathetic in it's naivety and lack of dignity.


There is much to be learned and applied from india's philosophical texts and scientific ideas—all of which may have been mentioned and contained truths and theories. This, however, does not make the various stories factual. Also, many facts and reference points in the claims here are not substantiated or even mildly agreed upon in most educated circles. At best, india's cultural history encompasses a large body of knowledge. That specific stories in the upanishads and other vedic texts somehow allude to a specific god or pantheon is utter non-sense. Many gods were worshipped. Eventually a monotheistic idea developed but at no time was the predominant consensus that krishna or chaitanya or any of the so-called vedic deities considered supreme (the original 24 avatars were conveniently narrowed down to 10 with barely a chapter dedicated to any of them). The so called hindu religion spans many ideas and ideologies—most were completely devoid of gods and focused on nature and natural sciences and more humanistic concerns. The fantastical notion that harnessing nuclear energy was somehow present during vedic times is utter non-sense with no proof. There is barely any consistent proof of the wars and dynasties of the so-called vedic period. Let alone proof of the existence of krishna and rama and many vedic characters. None. Coins of characters holding clubs and disks and archeological scattered objects with symbols popular in use at the time are not proof. That's called art people. Humans have been drawing animals and god-like figures on caves, then on potery and temple and castle walls for thousands of years. The egyptians had complex art on their temples and structures. Are we to immediately say that Ra, Osiris and Seth are real beings? How about Zeus and Athena? To recognize india as a valuable world culture is obvious and it's contributions are wonderful (not a big fan of raga music and repetitive chanting myself, but I get that it was a complex music system based on math and the seasons etc). This is nothing to dispute and I don't think any sane person will argue that India is rich in its history. Can't say modern india is much of a thing to write home about, but sure, it's history is profound.

It just seems silly to make the mental leap that just because something contained a few highlights and truths, that all of it was perfect or scientifically correct. That a few great minds found the gita or various upanishads and puranas a facitnating read does not make them guide books for what to worship and believe in. Early vedantic thought and many philosophical schools of india made it a point to not be preachy and not focus so much on the stories and tales—but rather use reason and logic to suss out what is beneficial knowledge for human conduct and social welfare. Unfortunately, philosophy is not for everyone, and so cheap stories and tales are what most people feel comfortable believing.

I find it irresponsible that so much energy is vested into basically tooting india's horn and really coming off as a nationalist and patriotic venture rather than a truly scientific one. If someone finds inspiration in the vedic texts (the 4 primary vedic texts are just hymns to nature gods—doubt that it really is relevant to modern people), or enjoys the stories of the upanishads and puranas and so forth—that's great. Obviously take it with a grain of salt. There are many people out there who will feed you a line and try to convince you that Hinduism is some sort of non-religion or a "path for all mankind" or universal etc. This is far form the truth and most of the time the people telling you this are actually cults and groups with very specific agendas and ideas about the vedic texts. They are not culturally hindu, so they come at it from either the ISKCON angle or some off shoot of that or other popular so-called hindu groups that attract mostly western practitioners who are attracted to the mystical and slightly evolved concepts compared to abrahamic religions. They are by far not representative of actual vedic culture or society. Many of these western guru's usually have ashrams in some tropical climates and run sudo-spiritual programs that attract youth and hippies/new-agers. Rarely are they attracting intelligent seekers and those who want to question and better understand the true Indian philosophical texts and concepts.

Cheap associations like the iron columns and so-called discovery of the sunken dwarka forts/ports are not symbolic of the day to day Hinduism that exists in India. Go to india. See it for yourself. There is little in the way of a spiritual culture that has universal appeal or practical application for the common person. No one is going to sit around and chant mantras all day. Even the deities and various temples dedicated to the deities are at best an acquired taste. Many of them are bizarre, have odd, fantastical tales woven around them and much of the "hinduism" we know in the west is not practiced at all in most of india (people don't really do asana-based yoga, they don't study the scriptures in any depth, they sure as heck don't chant 16 rounds a day—that is not what hinduism means to most hindus). Things like yoga (i.e. stretching and breathing) as well as chanting of simple mantras like hare krishna or elegant and elaborate temples with clean interiors and in general clean access to bathrooms and peaceful people in meditative states are NOT what you will see in india. People are just living their lives and believing in their gods and gurus never questioning or trying to understand more. In general there is a lot of cheesy expressions of the religion on billboards, in temples and most cities. In the west we try to portray this intellectual high-end scientific universal path called "Sanatana Dharma". But that is not what you see in india—at all. And it's very suspect and arguable that there was ever a so-called zenith of vedic culture (the closest thing to it was a primarily buddhist empire and samkhya being taught as a universal world view). More likely this only comes through in the ramayana tales and mahabharat fables as a cool story to create allegiance and a sense of belonging. A national tale of success and power. Were there great capitals and amazing cultural centers in ancient india? Sure, but nothing as evolved and amazing as say, modern day New York city or even ancient rome. There is no proof of it and there is no real current expression of it that hints at it having much in the way of influence in india today. You can barely find a bathroom in most of india and it's a run down country with many superstitions and failed social systems—it was even worse before the british and one can only use their imagination the further back you go. There was obviously many seats of power and cultural development in parts of india. But it was not a collective thing. Kings throughout history liked to feel proud and they often had poets and writers compose stories to solidify their claim and contributions to society. These thinkers and poets stumbled upon concepts and ideas that they later formed into schools of thought and various systems of knowledge. This was not something specific to india. In fact, if anything, india lacked a written language for so long that much of it's even more recent history was crudely recorded. Stories of various dynasties were exaggerated and fabricated to facilitate the spread and propaganda of various empires and their governing systems (caste being a very big one).

What really gets my goat here is the variety of ancient and modern indian cultural contributions is somehow being brought to the foreground as support for chanting hare krishna. That's ludicrous. It's like describing ancient egyptian, chinese or roman cultures and their historical contributions to science, philosophy and spirituality and then making the leap that we need to somehow see that as a sign that some fringe song or mantra in their ancient books holds the key to happiness and or world peace. Please. Don't insult India's history and culture by reducing it to a fanatical cult.

I'm so tired of reading and seeing naive articles stating the discovery of some archeological site or otherwise fantastical claims of flying spaceships or nuclear weapons with vedic origin being found as proof for the existence of krishna or the superiority of the hindu religion. This is utter nonsense. Hinduism or India's cultural heritage is just that: A heritage, a culture, a fascinating country with a fascinating history (or in some cases lack there of since no records exist of many supposed events beyond the scriptures that claim them to be true that barely date back 3500 years) and much to teach the world and contribute. Nothing more and nothing less. There is no need to put india on a pedestal over any other country nor it's so called claim on spirituality. Great art, music, philosophy, religion, architecture, scientific works, stories and political/social contributions are made by every great nation and abound throughout the world from south america to africa to europe, to china, and everything in between—small to big and many more to come.

We do however, live in a time where we have airplanes and great cities and advanced technologies and much has been discovered in terms of science, technology, industry, phycology, etc. In fact, none of the information here in the video could be possible to have had access to in bygone days. Information traveled slowly. So we now live in a time where we can condense thousands of years of india's history and even the planets evolution. And so we do not have a realistic portrait of things as far as how slowly and how far apart so many things are. We hear that some scriptures were written and they are ancient, but realistically, many of the scriptures of india were not written 5000-10000 years ago, but much much more recently. Most are traced to 2000-3500 max. After that we have little verifiable information. And rest assured—these scriptures and so-called scientific texts were revised, added to, adjusted and misinterpreted countless times by countless people—for their agendas and personal convictions. Yes, people. Not gods, not angels, not some mystic saints with elephant gods writing with broken tusks. People. Writers, poets, logicians, artists, scientists and philosophers—over the course of many hundreds and thousands of years. There was no "revealed knowledge" that vyasa just wrote down (sorry, ganesh) in one fell swoop. In fact, much of the knowledge in various shastras and supplementary vedic texts were developed right in line with and at the same time as many other scientific and philosophical discoveries and contributions were being made globally. Not just in india. Mathematical concepts, writing, architecture, art, religion, etc—many of the major discoveries in these fields of knowledge were being shared and discovered by moving tribes, shifting and conquering dynasties and eventually via the written, documented word. It seems foolish to highlight india with the singular very biased aim of having people superstitiously be convinced that chanting hare krishna is the best thing ever or has any more potency than chanting or meditating on any phrase or sound that one associates with peace and tranquility. It's also not healthy to be so preoccupied with living a life of no stress and complete mental peace. It robs us of rich experiences and the ability to grow stronger and build our own authentic and personal view of reality. Artificially imposing a framework of thought and belief simply robs our mind and dulls it of it's ability to seek and learn and question and form real ideas based in reality—not fiction.

Very interesting read, Ian. This is the kind of info needed to be on this board. Not many followers understand just how flawed the foundations of their beliefs are. It is usually the young and the sentimentalists who are simply enamored by exotic belief systems and cultures, but we all grow up and learn from our mistakes. The fact is, foreign religions are no different or even more flawed than our Judeo-Christian tradition; all ancient civilizations are. It turns out there no exception. It's just that our deep-seeded need to believe in something is so strong, believers will choose to live in denial instead. The same politics, social manipulation and power structure that are propping up the elite few to rule over the masses now are the same in the ancient times – from the Egyptians to the Brahmins, and religion has always been the most effective tool.

I understand during the 60s it was cool to belong to a group and to have a guru and how even cooler it is to be the guru. It was the age of discovery and curiosity. But so many things were wrong then and people have moved on and helped fine tune the social fabric we all are contributors to, but sadly, there are still leftovers that are thriving.

There is a cottage industry of ex-members out there exposing these flaws regarding the theology of Krishna religion and it is to the cult’s peril to ignore questions, facts and accounts ex-members are finding out, because whether you like it or not, any members who have access to the internet will get hold of these knowledge and you’re as fucked as hell, especially when in the process you hurt people along the way.

That said, my next question is how involved the gurus are and how guilty are they? For sure, anyone with an average mental faculty get it, including gurus. No matter how involved they are in the 60s, at one point in their lives they will question their own faith and dig facts up. Jagad Screwball at one point has had doubts about the legend of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or Krishna himself. If not, he is not worthy to be a teacher, let alone be worshiped as pure spiritual man. His theology and personality are so screwed up and that does not help his racket. Now that we are living in this age of information and can definitively dig up the truth and see clearly from the vantage point that there really is no truth to any ancient theologies, how long further these lies could go on?

I contribute to this board with the hope that knowledge alone could solve society’s problems with religious cults. The more knowledgeable people become the smaller the box of superstition is shrunk to until it gets erased totally. It’s insane that we live in the age that is unique and unprecedented, much like it was during the Renaissance and there are still children out there who are denied of their true potentials and voices.

Dharmabum, that is my hope too.

As a general rule of thumb, I am of the opinion that anyone who accepts somebody else's head at their feet and worship from them and service from them is a charlatan. Period. Being able to accept such worship necessitates a certain level paychopathic narcissism. It's got to be the furthest thing from humility and piety.

Time and again, I have seen these gurus and their organizations engage in underhanded methods making money, juvenile ways of disciplining their disciples, offering nothing in the way of practical and applicable day to day knowledge. They play up the pleasurable aspects of the religions Philosophies: dancing, eating, chanting, and now they dilute it further to include things that are completely westernized and make it appealing to the average youth. Call it rebranding.

I completely understand the reason for this. If one is to get very serious about the philosophy and start to explore the Disciplic succession and dive deep into the history of the tradition, they are very likely to come up to the surface with nothing short of a horror on their face.

I'm not saying that there's no room for spiritual teachers, or that people shouldn't be allowed to explore and enjoying whatever group makes them feel good. But the purpose of a forum like this is to open peoples eyes to the hoodwinking. And boy is there more than enough to go around.

Also, I firmly believe there is no absolute truth and reality. I think everyone in general feels that and understands that both rationally and instinctively. While there is much benefit to be had in various mindfulness practices and so forth, it's not beneficial to make the mental leap of trusting a tangible, perceivable reality, to all of a sudden believing in a fantastical metaphysical concept that really ends up only disassociating our mind and opening us up to potential BS. Once our reasoning faculties are softened we are less likely to see the gray areas of what we are being taught. Eventually we end up in the place where it's nearly impossible to separate fact from fiction.

If reason and logic no longer holds water in basic philosophical discourse and finds no place in Vedic mythology as a mechanism to at least act as symbolism for larger themes, then it should make it's way to the waste bin. What practical use and relevance does it pose to believe that a god walks on water, kills fantastical Demons and is an expert lover to 16108 queens? In a modern context, such stories fail to amuse as they once did in a bygone era. They are often full of contradictions and what can amount to nothing more than cheesy attempts to impress simple people.

Obviously there is the larger argument that these gods are very human in their representation. Man has modeled concepts of divinity riddled with base desires.

By definition, having desire necessitates having senses. If God is not human and is transcendental then why does he desire to create and to make things and ultimately to have us worship him and love him? They seem to be a very human concerns and involvements. And very conveniently, we are taught that this tiny little planet, is a perverted reflection of some sort of spiritual plane. Rubbish.

The Vedic literatures state that God is unknowable yet they spend a considerable amount of time trying to convince us that we can know him and have an authentic personal realization of him (i'm not sure if it's so relevant that it's a male or a female) They even go a step further and trying to convince us that specific pastimes actually took place or in someway are representative of God's thinking. Which, in modern context, unfortunately, makes him out to look like a complete idiot. Take for example the Bhagavad-Gita. The work itself is riddled with contradictions that never seem to make an effort to reconcile themselves.

The Gita speaks of selfless action and desireless performance of duty yet the contradiction lies in the very premise being motivated by the desire for liberation and freedom from samsara. Sounds pleasant on paper, but it holds no water.

While there is an aspect of playful cuteness in some of the mythology, that should certainly be understood from a symbolic standpoint rather than a literal one if one plans to have some authentic insight into the minds of great thinkers if the past.

In fact, the most significant contributions to Vedic thought have always come from those who are able to break apart the myths with systematic, logical, symbol oriented explanations.

It's always amusing, from a vaishnava standpoint, that such thinkers were often referred to as mayavadis and other terms like impersonalists. And we were taught that such great thinkers were falling short somehow in their insight about consciousness and nature. We were taught to fear such thinkers and steer clear of their very deep and sound philosophies in exchange for cheap, cheesy, silly, contradictory stories.

Yet, the one core principle of many of these great teachers philosophies, centered around the rejection of the Vedic scriptures and brahminical caste hierarchy which has ironically found its way back to the surface, yet again in both Hindu politics and smaller cults like the Hare Krishnas.

We see it's very vividly in the creation of the Brahmin and sanyassi hierarchy that exist within these organizations. Many of these organizations lay a proprietary claim on the way the Scriptures should be interpreted. With the creation of catchy book titles like the Bhagavad-Gita as it is, an entire generation of spiritual seekers has been hoodwinked into believing that God sat for four hours in the middle of a tense battlefield explaining to Arjuna the difference between foods in the mode of goodness, passion, and ignorance among other repetitive and useless themes found in the Gita. Devotees then spend years avoiding things like garlic and onions, based on these verses, fully believing that by eating such foods, they are degrading their consciousness and ability to progress on the spiritual path.

As with all things claiming to be absolute, enjoy with a grain of salt. It is more likely that a guru will continue to spoonfeed you half truths for the rest of your life if you do not start using your own mind and researching things for yourself and trying to understand them from the angle of reason and logic. Do reason and logic have limitations? Sure, existence is flawed. But this should not be an immediate excuse to gobble up nonsense or take something at face value.

That bowing down thing is way, way over the top for this age and time. We did it during the 60s and the 70s because we didn’t know any better back then. We were so ignorant of so many things. But for today’s brain that is simply unacceptable and ridiculous. It would feel 20 times more demeaning now since our brains have evolved leaps and bounds in accumulated knowledge. Getting rid of that practice should be included in the “rebranding”, if they want to survive. Also, the term “absolute” truth does not make sense any longer.

I remember my mom used to say, “maybe, they know things we just don’t know”, referring to politicians who propose bills that violate constitutional rights like the police’s power to seize properties they suspected to be drug-related.

“No, mom, nothing is arcane anymore, including the constitution.” Anyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Everything is just one click away. There are no more excuses for Krishna devotees to insist that theirs is a genuine and most truthful religion. Their history, theology, politics, crimes, controversies, statements are properly documented. They have been proven guilty decades ago, the trial is over. Even their scriptures are full of holes. They have to level down and become accountable human beings just like anyone else and drop this moral superiority shtick. Gurus shit and have sexual urges just like anyone else.

Rick Ross’s book, Cults Inside Out concluded that as long as there’s money in brainwashing religious cults unfortunately will still be with us.

Brainwashing is not really that difficult. It’s just like making yoghourt. All you need is a bucket of milk and a culture. Once mixed and given time you’ll have a bucket of yoghourt. But there’s a way to spoil it. Knowledge is the anti-culture, even a pinch will stop the curd to solidify consistently.

Ian, thank you. This is the type of conversation I believe could be helpful to those engaged in a cultic practice, I wish other posters would contribute to as well. For the record, I do not hate Krishna devotees, as I do not hate my Christian, Jewish or Muslim brothers and sisters. I have met the nicest and most talented people in the cult. But I do want them to recognize what are obviously questionable, inappropriate and even criminal they get psychologically coerced to accept. If it is just for love, charity and peace, I will have no quarrel for.

Surprising to see that not to many people are posting on this tread ...

with 50% of all the kids that went to the hare Krishna schools weing sexually molested ...and some beat up black and blue ..

all the arrange marriages that finish in disaster...wuth hundreds of kids
wondering what the fuck cult they where born into ...

I have been thinking recently ....me who as a swami and a GBC (a leader in ISKCON
how brainwash I was .....SOOOOO brainwash

Anyway the truth is that there are proff that jesus existed as a historical man
BUT THERE NOT ONE SINGLE PROOF THAT KRISHNA EVER EXISTE ...NONE
A BLUE GOD THAT COULD BE MERRIED TO 10,000 WIFES AND DIVIDE HIMSELF IN 1O,OOO
WHO LIFT A MONTAIN WITH ONE FINGER ....WHO FOUGHT DEMONS THAT WHERE A MILE HIGHT....A BLUE GOD THAT NEVER AGE BEYOUD 16 YEARS OLD
NO PROOF WHASOHEVER ....NONE
POSSIBLY A BLUE GOD IMAGINE IN THE IND OF A GREAT SAGE NOVALIST
IT IS AMAZING HOW PEOPLE ACCEPT THINGS JUST BECAUSE SO AND SO SAID IT IS SO
I MET A BUNCH OF KRISHNA DEVOTESS YESTERDAY IN THE USA
IF YOU CHALLENGE THEIR BELIEFS....ITS ALL PREPARE AWNSER LIKE THE JEHOVA WITNESS
I TOOK KRISHNA TO BE REAL FOR YEARS ...CONVINCE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE TO BELIEVE HE WAS FOR REAL ....NOW I JUST DO NOT BELIVE HE EVER EXISTED 5000 YEARS AGO

Thank you, dabcult for posting on this thread. Your vast experience in the Hare Krishna movement is crucial to helping people break free from cult delusion. There are many naïve people like Aloha girl still impressed with the Krishna lifestyle and ideology who are now parents to small children that shield them from the awesomest time in the history of mankind, denying them in the process of finding their potentials, voices and their own unique authentic life. These people have no idea what values in life they are losing and missing, all for the service of charlatans. Having had the front-row seat inside the Hare Krishna movement will surely help expose the hypocrisy, politics, psychological abuse and even criminal elements in the ideology.

Sharing our accounts, info and opinions the best we could is all we could do. It’s a thankless and time-consuming task, but I do believe is worth it, even if there’s only one soul to benefit. These children are precious and faultless.

Knowledge is the best weapon to challenge authority. The whole Krishna movement is all about authority of elite few preying upon impressionable and ignorant people using mumbo-jumbo and false historicity. Truth works slowly, but as long as it is accessible, it will resonate and change lives. Soon all this yoga woowoos, pseudo health craps and cute Sanskrit bullshits will lose their luster and novelty and the whole Krishna business will go bankrupt.

Hey, more than 800 views. I’m sure people lurking will help spread the fire. Keep this thread interesting. Thanks.

Regardless if it's christianity or if any particular personality existed—it is highly unlikely that the teachings, activities and events of those peoples lives was recorded in any unadulterated and historically accurate way. All of it was hacked up and sewed together to fit some groups agenda or idealized vision.

One would best be served if they did not take lightly and at face value the scriptural texts or any tradition. Obviously this is increasingly becoming common knowledge. At best, scriptural texts can serve as symbolic and idealized philosophical frameworks for larger discussions. Sitting around chanting is not in and of itself bad—nor is going to church per-se. As long as a person is not eating it all up as fact and using it as a screen to hide behind while they BS others or engage in less-than-savory behavior.

I think believing in a bearded, white christ figure who was immaculately conceived and rose from the dead and so forth is probably less of a reality and focal point than the basic teachings he was said to have propagated. But the fact that christ or krishna are "popular" as far as characters—historic or otherwise—is because they cover an array of desirable concepts: Love, power, humility, compassion, ethics, morality, spirituality, perfection, beauty etc—this is the "brand" and sell-factor in such mythological characters. Unfortunately a lot of those trumped up qualities were not likely to exist all in one entity all at one time. It was more likely that these attributes were idealistically added over time to build out the religious context and create a "god" person that could act as a unifying focal deity for the followers of those traditions.

I'm not sure what realistic "proof" of christ or krishna exists as 2000+ years is a long ass time. We barely have a realistic view of Abraham Lincoln and Einstein let alone characters whose life was poorly recorded and historically undetectable in terms of evidence beyond writings—which in most cases are nothing short of regurgitated popular myths and idealized beings.

I'm not here really to argue weather these "gods" existed. My conviction is that they did not and there is nothing as of yet to come along to show me otherwise. My point is that if you are going to base your life path on the teachings and works of any tradition—research it. It's often a fantastically tall order to try to emulate any of these peoples lives. In fact—it's pretty much unachievable and useless. Very few people are willing to proverbially or physically get nailed to a cross. Conceiving oneself as being a gopi requires complete abandonment of reason and logic. No matter the "angle"—as there are surely many explanations, justifications and convenient twists and turns that one can present as "logic and reason" in this regard—it all has to be understood as having the potential to really twist up the way you perceive the world. And that is a dangerous prospect and we see it's effects in pretty much all expressions of religion.

If religion is merely a tool for moral and ethical compliance—then surely a person needs to get to the heart of why they feel so little compassion for the human condition as to have to rely so heavily on a grossly idealized mythology to "behave". If one is doing it to "escape" the wheel of samsara—one needs to likewise question what it is they are doing or experiencing that has resulted in such an utter distaste for life.

While religion attempts to "give meaning" it often confuses the basic and very simple questions we should be asking to begin with: How can I be a better person? Certainly the answer will not come back in the form of anything that we see exemplified in the lives and words of christ or krishna. Those words are often enough to leave you even more confused or bewildered as to how to apply it all in any tangible context.

Rote chanting of hare krishna on beads, dancing madly in the streets, sitting in a church listening to a pastor, trusting in "karma and reincarnation" as viable explanations for happiness and suffering and disassociating from your mind and body through various forms of meditation and yoga is often more than any average person bargained for. You find yourself 20-40 years later still doing the same thing and not really experiencing anything "more" than you did when you started—and often times not having made any significant changes to your behavior or the way you communicate etc.

It's no wonder that 20-40 years later most devotees have nothing more to do than reminisce about "the good ol days" or keep parroting the same words and actions with a naive hope that christ will come back or krishna will grab you by your sikha and drag you back to the "spiritual sky". It's laughable and heartbreakingly sad at the same time. Laughable because of how naive it is considering 99% of those following this line of thinking were simply fed it with no subsequent questioning of it's authenticity and realistic value. Sad because people spend many years doing this and literally wasting their time and mind on fantasy.

I cannot conceive of why any forward thinking modern human would dabble even for a second with a religion like christianity or a dubious group like the hare krishnas—both of which have left in their wake nothing but scandal, war, destruction, false hope and false profits/prophets. Collecting millions in tax exempt cash and supported fully by their congregations to peddle nonsense. One cannot effectively progress forward in life when the mind holds on and is still paying heed to a system of falsity which is present in basically all religions. You may ask what the alternative is. To which I state: Rid your mind of religion first—the rest will fall into place. You will quickly realize that striving for happiness, peace and a deeper sense of self and belonging as well as a natural compassion and desire to serve your fellow traveler will come to the foreground. I rather have fewer answers to life's conundrums than a slew of false ones. Myth has a place in it all—but understood as just that: Myth.

Anyway, my two sense/cents as always—an atheistic point of view, but it's authentically my realizations after much study and deliberation. I don't have to scramble for a religious quote or scriptural idealism to offer up support for dying ideas.

The fact that a person is born into this world and immediately, upon having only developed a basic sense of reason, is indoctrinated and exposed to the mindless garbage of religious thought as a guiding principle of life—basically blunting the very evolved tool for life guidance, and replacing it with pretend ideologies and stories—is a social crime. Posting a "guru" figure at the helm makes it even worse. A child is instantly taught personality worship: That some person is by default better, more qualified and worthy to be bowed down to in submissive lamb mentality while uttering a mindless mantra.

This was the very thing that freaked me out into a mild panic with my mother. While visiting her in Hawaii, she wasted no time in "purifying" my kids and having them mindlessly bow and offer praise, flowers, food etc to little pictures and statues. My kids had NO IDEA or capacity for even comprehending what it was they were engaging in. In fact explaining anything tangible to them was going to effectively fall on deaf ears. Devotees try to butter this over by giving their kids krishna and radha dolls and read them cutesy stories from he "krishna book", effectively turing krishna into some sort of cheap superhero concept that kids lap up. Never is a child told to study the history of hindu mythology. Never are they told that the stories are symbolic and not literal and that they can find their won guru when they are oder and understand more. In fact, they are made to feel that it's offensive and may result in a horrible existence of yamaraj-hell and being ripped apart by Narasimha-dev if they doubt any of it. I did not want this mind trash for my kids. If they grow up believing in some god or guru—let it be on their terms and according to their needs and personal choice. No one should have to bow and follow something from birth. devotee parents need to be respectful and mindful of this. Let your kids be kids. Let them make mistakes and "offenses". Certainly your all-powerful god is not going to take offense because a half-developed brain attempting at logic and reason has some questions.

I apologize for my long "rants". It's a bad habit. But hopefully someone finds some value in it.

No need to apologize, Ian, we are all ranting here. I do enjoy reading your “rants”, they are not specific to the Butler cult but the “cult” mindset. I’m an anti-cult (superstition) first, it’s so happen I came from the Butler cult. I guess the issues we all share become the microcosm of generic cult culture that are relevant to people outside the Butler cult as well.

I think it’s smart this way, for this thread to be open to all members or ex-members of any religious cults, especially our cousins from ISKCONs. At the end of the day, all cults operate the same ways anyway. From Scientology to Mormonism. It’s about time, this conversation should be in the forefront. This issue has long been ignored by society and our laws because of political correctness and religious freedom. But there are countless victims of cults and unfortunately most of them are children. This age and time is just the wrongest time for them to be in a cult. That is my thesis. I grew up in the Butler cult and had the front seat view observing other children grew up in the cult. It’s not so much just about physical or sexual abuse, the psychological damage is twenty times or more. It’s heart-breaking.

I’m appealing to ISKCON ex-members or other cult victims to voice out their experiences to help others, especially children to break free from the menace and diabolical hold of cult leaders.

Thx Dharmabum—
Yeah, it's a plague of sorts. These cults form a tight bubble around the person and within that bubble things start to fester. I've seen it. it's not a sustainable existence. The sages and thinkers of the past did not intend on creating an "absolutism" in their theories and ideas. It was always to be understood as a work in progress (existence is not fixed and static). We live in a society that has become lazy on the thinking front. We like to be spoon fed prescriptions and concepts as so called solutions and concrete answers. Often times religions attach science and logic as limited and unable to offer all answers. That's never been the attempt of science and philosophy. The idea is to seek truth and sound, logical, and rational explanations and form theories and ideas based on available evidence and deduction. The danger in the cults is that they offer this as the basis for convincing people to join, and then once you are fully on board with the "basics" (you're not the body etc), they start to feed you a steady diet of irrational concepts and myths and skewed belief systems. Before you know it, you are shaved up, wearing saffron and chanting like a robot to some guru and god and you have little to no conception of the implication at hand. Of course thesis not the experience for everyone and many people find a perfect balance and application of the philosophies. But you have to make some pretty large mental leaps on the way to that place. I was never able to wrap my head fully around it all. Where one rational thought started, 100 irrational ideas sprang forth. It was ridiculous. The justifications and explanations I was given were devoid of any critical thinking and awareness of what was being implied and suggested.

The internet is flushing the woowoos out of religious cults that got so used to getting a pass for being esoteric. Not anymore. You can choose to be irrational but you have to debate it openly now. Those days are gone when gurus can hide in ratholes and be unaccountable for all the woowoos they are propagating. People will call you out in the open. If you can't answer to inquiries, it is to your peril, you will be held accountable point by point, even by a twelve-year-old net savvy kid from the safety of his basement for all the world to see, read and help make an informed decision.

This CEI forum has been in existence for more than a decade and is doing exactly that, particularly to the Butler cult. The fact that not one of the thousands upon thousands Jagad Screwball has claimed adhere to his dogma could repute and debate openly and rationally practices in question, this "spiritual path" is discredited.

If you are a serious follower and sincere in pursuing a truly spiritual path, isn't it rational to think this over? Worshipping a former hippie who has amassed millions and millions of dollars by weaseling his way in then out of one of the biggest franchise in cult business, ISKCON, setting up his own brand and then suddenly become Howard Hughes, hiding in his tin-foiled, highly quarantined, air-filtered mansions in a one of the richest enclaves in Lanikai, spoon-fed and pampered like a big, fucking, spoiled baby, you owe it to your children to at least question your chosen path, otherwise, you become complicit in this obvious lies and crime.

Stopped being a victim, don't get trapped in that sticky honey. Instead of giving your hard-earned money to a charlatan, buy your kid something and tell your child how much you love him/her. That in itself is a spiritual path. Fly away to freedom.

Spiritual path need not be irrational. A spiritual path is as simple as just trying your best to be nice to others. Gurus and woowoos are entirely unnecessary.