That is very interesting. Of couse, sometimes overzealous security settings on a computer can trigger warnings, but on the other hand an updated virus protection system does pick up that type of malware code.

But even the verbal metaphors are fascinating...if you think about it.

"Exploit Threat"
"Trojan"
"Virus"

So its wise to keep our computers, and our minds free and protected from "Exploit Threats" and "Mind Viruses" as well.

The destructive beliefs being "installed" by Byron Katie without the subjects conscious awareness, function literally and metaphorically in a very similar way!

Quote
helpme2times
A warning to readers of this thread...

A little while ago I was re-reading some of the old posts in the two Byron Katie threads. When I clicked on a few of the links to Byron Katie's old web pages, I received red alert warnings from my virus protection system that they contained "exploit threats".

This is a link to a web page that talks about exploit threats. Scroll down and read the section called "Understanding the Exploit Threat":

[[url=http://www.explabs.com/about/mediaCenter/pr_120507_01.asp]Keep Your Surfing Safe[/url]]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 02:47AM by The Anticult.

The Rick Ross Message Board Golden Oldies Threads

Or..various ways human beings are manipulable--especially the ones who consider themselves special, invulnerable and impervious

There are a pair of old threads instigated by a discussion of a different group
that sparked discussion of what have been called 'memes' and what some
term 'viruses of the mind.'

How We Propagate Memes and Do Not Know It

[forum.culteducation.com]

Signs a person has been infected by a meme/virus of the mind
[forum.culteducation.com]

Room Manipulation (This thread instigated a truly astounding number of troll visits---which in my personal opinion, signalled that we were on to something

[forum.culteducation.com]

And...Sleep Deprivation

A great way to assist people to make informed choices about what kinds of
projects to get involved with--and stay well away from--is to get the public to understand that quality sleep is as important as good nutrition and exercise, and that sleep deprivation can do everything from compromise health to triggering manic episodes in persons who have inherited a genetic vulnerability to bipolar affective disorder.

First, sleep deprivation affects persons with no mental illness the way alcohol does. Now, imagine making important decisions about your core belief system and the rest of your life and relationships when drunk.

Bad idea, right? Now imagine what happens in many LGATs where things are kept so hectic that you cant get your usual hours of sleep and put in all sorts of confusing, confrontational situations.

[austindwi.com]

Now, lets look at bipolar affective disorder. A person may have inherited some genetic loading for the condition and not know it.


A coworker's bipolar husband went manic when he got his first internet connection and stayed up all night.

A person on Craigslist told us that he got his first bipolar manic episode by flying from the US to Australia. The time zone changes zapped his circadian rhythm.



[sleepdoctor.blogspot.com]

Quote

Recent research has found that disrupted sleep and sleep complaints are common in patients with affective disorder even between mood episodes. Treatment of disrupted sleep and the maintenance of a regular sleep/wake cycle are important components of the prophylaxis of mood episodes in bipolar disorder.

[serendip.brynmawr.edu]

This person says a thing or two about stress and sleep disturbance in triggering bipolar. Hm....

Quote

There are many influences that can affect the disease. Most importantly stress, which can cause an episode, or help the disease progress (7). The hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis is the area of the brain that deals with stress. When the body is exposed to certain stresses the HPA releases corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF), which causes the secretion of the hormones adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), which causes the release of cotisol (10). Cortisol can increase muscle activity, while CRF decreases appetite, sex, and heightens alertness. The continuous activation of this chain of changes can be a cause of depression, and perhaps also mania due to the chemical changes it causes in the brain.

Sleep and the internal clock also affects bipolar disorder. The body's internal rhythm, the circadian clock, is located in the hypothalamus in the suprachaismatic nucleus (SCN), which in addition to other things regulates melatonin. Melatonin is a hormone that is involved in the sleep cycle. Those with bipolar disorders have more difficulty regulating their circadian rhythms, which usually sets itself due to internal and as external conditions (2). The drastic change of rhythms between mania and depression accompanies cycles suggesting a strong link between the two (4). The question is does the abnormality of the circadian rhythm cause the bipolar episode, or does the episode cause the change in rhythm. The former seems to be the more likely because the sensitivity of sleep in patients with bipolar disorder. A change in sleeping habits, such as the loss of sleep or change in sleep schedule can cause a manic episode (7).

One woman mentioned that sleep deficit greatly aggravated her young son's Attention Deficit Disorder

[borntoexplore.org][/quote]

Stuart, dare I say it, may have something of a point. In the recovery process it can be helpful to take an honest look at what drew you to the cult in the first place. In my case it served a good purpose in finding a way of being taken care of without working too hard, and to avoid making tough decisions.

This, of course, in no way gets the mind-controlling, power-hungry perps off.

My 2 cents on this, is I don't see any major evidence that victims of various cults and LGAT's, on this forum at least, are merely pointing the finger at gurus, and avoiding personal responsibility.

If anything, it seems to me too many people over-guilt themselves for getting conned initially, when they had not yet learned how it all worked.

For example, personally, I have always been able to see through old-school cults like Siddha Yoga in literally minutes. I was personally recruited for Sai Baba, and TM years ago, (and others) and before I knew any of this stuff, I could see it was a basic con-job. Sai Baba with his bad amateur magic tricks and cash demands, and the TM recruiter lying he could levitate, etc. Laughable.
Same with Scientology, which I personally infiltrated a bit "for fun" years ago to try and figure out how cults worked.

But my view is each person has their own weakness and blind spots. So just because my weakness is not for men in saffron robes who don't wear underwear, doesn't mean I attack people who might fall for it. Maybe another person's weakness is a guy in a fancy suit with a Rolex, while others see he is a con in seconds.

I would be interested if anyone can point to anywhere in these threads, or in this forum, where personal responsibility is being avoided, in the way Stuart Resnick implied. It appears he was imagining something that does not exist.

I get the sense that basically everyone I have ever seen making the effort to post analysis at this forum is well aware of their own personal vulnerabilities...
So I agree 100% that each person need to be honest with themselves about their own personal human fallibilities. (need to belong, fear of assertiveness, vanity, greed, love-starved, etc).

But I see personal responsibility as being self-evident.
But the bad Gurus twist that, like Byron Katie does, so she is blameless.
I have yet to see any of the main Byron Katie supporters EVER seriously criticize Byron Katie, or admit some of her blatant bald-faced lies. They just won't do it, as she rigged a self-blame Turnaround in their minds. It is diabolical.

I am personally interested in Byron Katie as she is not at all obvious to the untrained eye, and is not being examined by others properly, yet. Everyone knows Sai Baba is a crook.
But Byron Katie seems to be able to easily dupe the New Age crowd, and also this "nondualist" movement as well. They focus on her "beliefs", but seem to be blind to her techniques. They don't know her nondualist belief content is just a tool for her meta-process. That is very common in the old NLP world, where she learned some of her stuff, probably from Stever Robbins and others.
Byron Katie is one of the New Gurus, or even the New New Gurus. The icing on the cake is she "plays dumb" and pretends to be a "savant". The old NLP guys would kill themselves laughing at her schtick, until they saw what she was doing to regular folks with those powerful techniques developed in the 1980's, when she started to learn them.
The fact that Byron Katie can get away with her "instant enlightenment cockroach story" literally boggles my mind. Its almost like a parody of how far you can push it, and get away with it.

But I do see those who are speaking out here as empowering themselves, and accepting appropriate responsibility, and that makes certain it won't happen again. For the life of me, I can't think of anyone on this forum who doesn't do that!

The one I see doing it, is that maniac Byron Katie! She is one step away from those old-school Gurus who blame their acolytes doubts for causing their physical sicknesses! That used to be very popular with the gurus..."its your doubts of me that are making me ill...woh is me...as they fake an illness". They always seem to get sick when they get busted too..."your doubts gave me the cancer".

Quote
Guruphobiac
Stuart, dare I say it, may have something of a point. In the recovery process it can be helpful to take an honest look at what drew you to the cult in the first place. In my case it served a good purpose in finding a way of being taken care of without working too hard, and to avoid making tough decisions.

This, of course, in no way gets the mind-controlling, power-hungry perps off.

Thanks for the post above Corboy.

And what is amazing, as detailed in these very threads, Byron Katie does every single one of those techniques, and literally about 100 more.
And the BK folks just refuse to talk about them, as they know knowledge of the technique can block it. Which is why they need to try and keep everything "fuzzy", and try to deflect from it.

Byron Katie is only really about 50% exposed in all these threads, at most.

Her corporate structure has barely been touched...For-Profit companies, tax-free non-pofit foundations, international office, cash donations, secret offshore accounts??, etc. That is the classic structure for moving money around, all these groups use it, you just hire the people to set it up. Intra-corporate charges is the way to move money around using inflated-charges, etc.

Like when Landmark hires Werner Erhard as a "consultant" using various shell companies around the world.
That's why they go International, and get an offshore office, in "friendly" places like the Cayman Islands or Amsterdam, etc.

So its all multi-layered and hidden.
Byron Katie is interesting, as she really is much more advanced, and her techniques seem to be a bit more invisible to the untrained eye.
She is disturbing, as she seems to have the same concept of "ethics" as L Ron Hubbard.

of course, the other interesting thing about Byron Katie is since she "plays dumb" like she is a Savant, then she always has a plausible deniability.

What is doubly amazing, is even on her CD's, she talks about being a CEO and how she hires and fires and manages people. (her message: screw with BK and she will fire your sorry ass quick).

At the same time she is giving her staff that harsh message, she is playing the clueless Savant of Love.

On top of that, her past is untraceable, and unprovable, so she can say anything she wants.
If she ever gets busted after a private investigator does some work...she can just say..."after the cockroach put me in a Trance, my memory was jumbled".

It just goes on and on.
But of course there are many cracks in the painting, as has been detailed.
She is clearly highly intelligent...I bet her IQ is over 140, its not easy to do what she does.

Its almost like she is doing an "experiment" in completely shifting and re-engineering people's entire sense of "Reality". Her objective is to completely re-engineer your reality structures, without you knowing how it happened, or even IF it happened.
To paraphrase McCluhan...(the medium is the message)

The Process is the Message.
(the content is basically a distraction, she could be teaching Wicca or monkey worship).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 02:11PM by The Anticult.

If LGAT leaders and gurus really were serious about teaching us lowly peons to accept responsiblity, they model responsible behavior themselves and in the following ways:

Use their energy and ambition to get into accredited clinical training programs. They would bear the responsibility of doing the years of training and pass the tests needed to become licensed mental health professionals.

(Thousands of people do this each year, boys and girls. Its hard but not impossible to do.)

Next, if LGAT leaders and gurus accepted responsiblity for the power they wield they would not declare themselves perfect and shift responsiblity for trouble onto staff members or participants.

Instead, they would accept that they are accountable to an ethos of care in relation to the followers who trust in thier power and look to them for guidance and healing.

Instead of these ordinary ways of accepting responsiblity most gurus and LGATs set themselves up as perfect and blameless and if any trouble arises, they find ways to shame and blame followers into taking responsiblity for whatever goes wrong.

They would accept responsiblity by allow their performance to become subject to scrutiny, be identifiable by a professional license numbers, as therapists are, and would never, ask anyone to sign away the right to engage in mediation or litigation if a person felt the LGAT or the guru had harmed them.

Instead, what do we see? All that energy or ambition tends to go toward
marketing and PR, rather than for getting a clinical license.

People who are sincerely interested in helping others and who have accepted responsiblity for this, accept that the power to heal comes with
accountablity and that to the extent that you acquire power to heal and wield influence you are accountable, morally and legally to an ethos of care.

To be a professional is to accept not only moral responsiblity but social and legal accountabilty.

Professionals accept responsibility by acknowledging the possiblity of making mistakes.

That is why, among other things, professionals are required to carry malpractice insurance or work for an entity that carries such insurance.

That is why if an ordinary citizen desires to own an automobile, he or she must carry auto insurance.

Driving a car means wielding power and the possibility of inflicting damage due to a mistake or mishap. So you have to have the ability to repair that damage and that means carrying insurance.

So lets ask this about responsibility--how many LGATS or gurus do we know of that clearly state they carry LGAT or Guru malpractice insurance?

Many who attend these LGAT events have already taken responsiblity for their lives by carrying auto insurance, home insurance, earthquake or hurricane coverage.

If participants max out their credit cards, they are responsible for paying up.

So, rather than being wimps who shy away from responsibility, many who attend these LGAT things are already bearing responsiblities in life quite seriously, including paying rent and living without the support of entourages.

So...how many LGATs publicize the insurance -and name the insurance carriers--when putting on various and sundry events?

If they do multi day residential events, where food is provided in house, do participants see a clearly posted set of certificates that the place has met local standards for fire safety, food safety and public health?

Because...according to public health ordinances in most areas, its not right for cockroaches to run loose, not even if the little buggers can trigger enlightenment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 09:19PM by corboy.

Finally, regarding the acceptance of responsibility:

When put under pressure, many human potential leaders love to wail that Jesus was misunderstood and persecuted too. Or their advocates invoke
that scenario, likening their poor, misunderstood leader to the suffering Jesus.

Just to pre-empt this, I invite readers to remember the story as told in the Greek Scriptures:

Jesus took the rap himself. His disciples actually ran and hid when Jesus was arrested. Peter escalated the situation by wounding one of the hostiles, but then fled too and later denied knowing who Jesus even was.

Jesus had no attorney to represent him, not even a paralegal. He was all by himself when beaten up, interrogated. He had some heart broken witnesses as he died, but essentially died alone. All he left was a single suit of clothes, period.

Now if Jesus had been like many modern day gurus, he'd have had a team of lawyers to represent him in court, he might have conned at least one of his disciples to get crucified in his place, and Jesus would've slipped off to
a well funded retirement in one of a number of luxury resorts scattered around the Roman Empire.

So...according to the narrative officially accepted as canonical scripture, Jesus isnt a model for being misunderstood and persecuted.

He is a role model for taking responsiblity--and for taking the consequences after his entourage had deserted him.

(Which suggests Jesus didnt use methods of undue influence. His followers were actually free to desert him and run--in contrast to entourages members who compromise their own interests to protect a charismatic leader unable to reciprocate their loyalty.)

Corboy, those are some fantastic points about these LGAT Guru' and their companies...

- why do they avoid the responsibilty of licensing?
- why do they blame others for everything? (like the mythical cult of anticultists, for example)
- why do they avoid responsibilty by forcing people to sign away their rights?
- why do they avoid all moral and legal accountability?
- why to they hide from, and block full disclosure?

Of course, they do all that and more to avoid being held accountable for their actions as much as humanly possible.

All the while they tell you to accept all of the responsibilty for their abusive behavior.
Pretty slick.

Quote
corboy
Because...according to public health ordinances in most areas, its not right for cockroaches to run loose, not even if the little buggers can trigger enlightenment.

One other problem with Byron Katie (and others in her area), is that they seem to attract some folks in the area of "Nonduality", who just focus on the philosophy, and ignore the techniques being used on them.

There is a blog already linked to in this thread, which seems to address some of these issues.

if you see the dhamma…reflections on the triple gem
[dhammaleaves.wordpress.com]
Critique of Byron Katie, June 25, 2008 by josesiem
[dhammaleaves.wordpress.com]

It appears he was/is a big supporter of Byron Katie, but is having some doubts. (for now, it seems to me he is standing on a tightrope).
He states in a comment...

"I was an idolizer of Katie for the past 4 years now. However, I’m starting to wake up and smell the coffee! Or is it going back to sleep and dreaming some more? I don’t care. I don’t want to live in a world of nothing and no one. Yet these “there is nothing, there is no one” teachings have become incredibly popular!"

I have not read much of his blog, but he seems like an honest person, trying to understand this Nondualism stuff. His most recent entry seems to be an analysis of Solipsism, which is what that belief system can amount to.
So here is a thoughtful guy who has been sucked into the BK vortex for 4 YEARS. That is not surprising at all. Byron Katie wants you for LIFE, and 5-10 years minimum.
(Notice: reading these BK threads make commute your Byron Katie sentence down from LIFE without parole, to minimum parole release, or perhaps even to an instant full self-pardon and full release).

The problem is that some folks into the Nondualist ideas, seem to believe that we create all of our own realities, not just its perception.
So if a brick falls off a truck and takes your eye out, you created that.
Lightning hits you on the head, yep, same deal.

So its a short walk to believing that if you get murdered in your sleep in a Genocide, then you created that too.
Or that you are 100% responsible for the lies being told to you by a Guru.

A good way out of the mess, is to seperate 2 things out.
Seperate out the TECHNIQUES OF PERSUASION by the Guru like Byron Katie, from the Philosphical Questions.

Classical concepts in Zen - Buddhism are completely seperate from the modern hidden persuasion techniques of someone like Byron Katie.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2008 02:31AM by The Anticult.