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question lady
Fascinating analysis Anticult. What books or other sources do you recommend for learning more about these types of techniques? I would imagine that if you can spot them, you are less likely to be taken in by them.

This falls into the area of Ericksonian Hypnosis, and the use of hypnotic metaphor, and what are called Teaching Tales.They are stories, which sound like a normal story, but they have embedded metaphors in them for the unconscious.
This book shows how this is done for good, not for the purpose of exploitation.

My Voice Will Go With You: The Teaching Tales of Milton H. Erickson.
[www.amazon.com]


Byron Katie does this all the time, that is most of what she does with her "weird stories". Sadly, she has taken something that can be healing, and turned it against people.

There is a lot of information in this thread.
Also, any information about Milton Erickson and Ericksonian Hypnosis is a good place to start.

Just keep in mind that most people who do this ethically do it OPENLY, and they tell you they are doing it.
The scammers pretend they are not doing it.
This is what Byron Katie does, she pretends she is just some flaky lady, as a way to avoid responsibilty, and also to make it easier for her to operate without you being suspicious.
This is why people are on their knees before her, and handing over their valuables.
Its explained in her story of how you are supposed to "love" the robber.
Her stories about "war" are all about the war for your mind and to SUBMIT to Byron Katie.

Its really a terrrible abuse. There is no way she is going to get away with that kind of abuse of the unconscious forever, there is always blowback.

Carl Jung on the Hazards of Blowback

Carl G. Jung travelled in India and made some intriguing remarks about how its general spiritual approach affected him as one who had been formed by the culture and mythology of Northern Europe.

I think Jung's comments are worth our attention for he was examining belief systems in the 1950s that remained mostly segregated in India and had not yet reached the Western world in mass circulation as was to happen later on.

"The Indian's goal is not moral perfection but the condition nirdvandva.

(nirdvandva means liberation from oppposites, dualism, the ten thousand things C)

'He wishes to free himself from nature in keeping with this aim, he seeks in meditation the condition of imagelessness and emptiness.'

(Jung was referring to those practicing advaita, not the bhakti schools of Hinduism in which deities are visualized great detail C)

'I on the other hand wish to persist in the lively contemplation of nature and of the psychic images. I want to be freed neither from human beings nor from myself, nor from nature, for all these appear to me the greatest of miracles.

'Nature, the psyche, and life appear to me like divinity unfolded--what more could I wish for? To me the supreme meaning of Being can consist only in the fact that it is, not that it is, no longer.

'To me, there is no 'liberation' a tout prix. I cannot be liberated from anything I do not possess, have not done or experienced. Real liberation becomes possible for me only when I have done all that I was able to do, when I have completely devoted myself to a thing and participated in it to the utmost. When I withdraw from participation (and IMO this would include denial and dissociation from one's suffering C) I am virtually amputating part of my psyche...

And Dr. Jung warns of the hazards of amputating any part of one's psyche:

'Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much, there is always the danger that things we have neglected will return with added force.'

Jung, Memories Dreams and Reflections, pp 276-277 vide his chapter on visiting India.

Finally, in this same section on India, Jung wrote:

'I studiously avoided all so-called "holy men". I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men and to accept their truth for myself."

It must be noted that Dr Jung speaks for himself--and that he took it seriously to learn all he could about science, classical scholarship, and medicine by taking the necessary courses and doing residencies.

But in facing ones own truth, he felt no external teacher could give what you cannot derive from within--hence his refusal to visit celebrated gurus.

It is up to each reader to decide, on his or her own, whether Jung's concerns speak to the reader's own condition or not. The crux of Jung's work is not to eradicate suffering but to face our suffering consciously, rather than splitting it off. Jungs experience was that if we do this, whatever we suppress and remove from conscious awareness will return in some other form.

As for the material in Memories, Dreams and Reflections, Jung consented to write this book only on condition that it not be published until after he had died.

This is quite different from those spiritual entrepreneurs who disclose intimate details about their lives as a way to seduce interest and anxiety from devotees.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2008 01:19AM by corboy.

there have been a few folks who are a bit soft on Byron Katie, and who seem to think she is mainly benign. That is actually a very serious mistake, as that is part of her presentation, to try to intially make people feel at ease. This is a common method.

For example, the other week I came across a Scientology street recruiter. I asked this guy hard questions for quite a while, and he literally had an answer to everything, usually in the form of a Scientology question. (Where did you read that? Who told you that? Did LRH really say that?)
There was no question he was a True Believer out to save the universe, and he was a very presentable, calm, almost "cool" person dressed in a trendy way. (that why they picked him to do street recruiting!).
But these Scientology street recruiters are highly trained, with the goal to get you to do the bogus "stress test" which is just the "hook" to get into the fish...you.

Byron Katie's 4 Questions and Turnaround function the same as the Scientology Stress Test. Its just a way to make contact, and get the FISH-HOOK into you.

People should be highly critical and suspicious of all of these hundreds of Gurus trying to sell you enlightenment and promising to END SUFFERING. You should be highly suspicious of that.
(its a scam, of course).

Byron Katie is NOT just an "author".
She runs a massive 9-Day LGAT, and many other programs, and she also has a 100 Day Program.
If a too-trusting person went through the Katie 100 Day program, then that person could be in the grasp of Byron Katie for a decade.

Byron Katie is a dangerous person. One of the reason for this is her projected media "image" of being a "grandma" and all the rest of it. Also, she targets people who don't seem to have any training in these areas.
People should be very wary of Byron Katie, just like you would be wary of any wolf in sheeps clothing. she is running a dangerou Thought-Reform system.

Byron Katie does seem to have borrowed a number of things from Scientology, even using the same word "CLEAR" in a similar way.

Hey guys,

I just have to tell you all how much this Website is helping me deconstruct the belief systems that led me to spending ten years in a little yoga-meditation cult.

Thanks you all very much for your responses, you too Anticult, the bluntness is really not a problem since you are trying to help people here, not deliberately offend them.

yg: I'm reading sooo much stuff on cults right now. The Guru Papers is on my list. I'm trying to get a hold of it from my local library. You are right, there is no reason to accept any religious/spiritual text as the absolute truth. We often don't know who wrote it or their true motivations for writing. Advaita theories definitely seem to be useful for gurus of all stripes.

This thread is about Byron Katie, so I would like to turn it back around to her. I am not involved with Byron Katie's group in any way; however if my own ten year experience of the guru-system is anything to go by, the inner circle of Katie's group probably fear her as much as the outside fringe members love her.

I can remember more than one temper tantrum on the part of my guru's wife (supposed to be the yin to his yang and all that). She was very sweet and benevolent to out of town visitors. She was very disciplining and strict with those of us beside her on a daily basis. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Katie too has a manner of screaming and throwing everything off a student's desk when things are not organized or developing according to her wishes. That's when the people around her might say things like "If you step too close to the holy fire you'll get burned". Those are phrases I heard, even used myself to explain such bad behavior from the people in 'authority' over me.

From what I understand from my experience and reading, the Fear/Love dynamic work hand in hand in consolidating these people's power over others and creating a sense of instability within the student, never knowing how the teacher will react and what karmas she will decide to burn off you tomorrow, even though she was incredibly sweet with you today.

I also wish that people would be very careful when choosing to become involved in these kind of groups. As Anticult said, ten years can go by in a flash. You wake up on the other side with no relationship, no career, no life savings and a whole lot of twisted, fearful ideas about what will happen to you if you allow yourself to admit the truth of your experience to other people.

Thanks again guys. I am still reading and absorbing everything on this thread. I will probably have more questions :)

P.S: corboy, this stuff from Jung that you posted is incredibly helpful!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2008 11:42PM by solea13.

From the story of Byron Katie's response to her friend dying of cancer:

Quote

The tears in her eyes were tears of gratitude, she said.

How sad and twisted is this?

Perhaps the tears were shed because even on the sick patient's deathbed, her friend Byron Katie had to 'play guru' to her, could not accept a simple, clear expression of human love. Grrr.

Surely anyone with an ounce of wisdom would simply hold their friends hand and say something like, "I know you love me. I love you too."

It was always pretty typical that the people in our organization who thought they were the most 'spiritual' were usually the least compassionate or sensible. I used to tell my bf I would trust my life more with people who had absoultely no interest in spiritual things.

If I got hit by a car and lay dying in the street, 'normal' people would call an ambulance. My 'spiritual' friends would proably just sit there sending me positive thoughts. Idiots :P

Solea wrote of her own guru:

'She was very sweet and benevolent to out of town visitors. She was very disciplining and strict with those of us beside her on a daily basis. "

This is classic. Its like families that, in private and behind closed doors, are nasty to their children, but thrill adult visitors with lovely parties, charm, haute cuisine.

My mother was delightful with her adult friends but nasty to me. I could never get her best friend to understand that Mom treated me very differently from the way she treated her friends.

Her pal kept thinking I had an excessively gloomy viewpoint. She couldnt understand that Mom gave me quite a different 'data set' from what she had given her pal.

Later, much later, I discovered my mother's friend had done the same thing--utterly charming to friends and visitors, threw kick ass parties that people remembered years later, did a lot of good in the community.

But at home, her family life was Trauma City. She and my mother were similar--one face to the world, a darker face behind closed doors. No wonder they were best buds.

And both, by default lied and kept things secret, rather than tell the truth. (Its similar to how addicts can find each other almost by radar.)

My hunch is that many abusive bosses (whether they run 'spiritual/human potential' businesses or just secular businesses) often split thier personalities in two--a sunny, charming personality that is revealed to the public (and especially to major donors) and the darker, angrier, tantrum tossing cruel child personal that is kept hidden and vented in private upon the entourage/inner circle members.

If you can con the entourage into believing this abuse is a privilige or a means of purification, all the better. The entourage are given the task of enabling/parenting, concealing the abusive bosses shadow persona.

And because the public never get to see the abuse, they have zero frame of reference for it. If any entourage member tried to tell the truth, the public who need the guru's public persona, who have linked their ideals and hopes to idealizing the guru's charming public persona will hate the entourage member who dares to disrupt this projection by revealing that the public persona is just a performance and not the whole truth.

Its all the more complicated because those who only see the public persona may actually get some personal benefit from what the guru teaches in public--never knowing that their bliss is generated off the misery and suffering of the entourage who huddle behind closed doors and conceal their bruises underneath nice make up.

Worst of all, too many members of the public who benefit from the 'sunny side up' persona of a secretly abusive guru refuse to face the moral implications of getting their bliss from the sacrifices and degradation inflicted on the entourage.

They will bleat, 'But that wasnt my experience.'

Of course it was not. You got only part of the picture, just the part the abuser wanted you to see.

What price bliss if its made possible by the misery of a guru's entourage? That bliss will be dirty.

And if someone says the entourage members corrupt the guru--that is baloney. It appears in many cases that abusive bosses and gurus carefully hand pick entourage members from those persons pre-formatted to parent abusive people and in an ashram its easy to find that out---because people in ashrams tend to trust the environment and will freely disclose thier upbringing and traumas.

Sometimes you'll be tested to see whether you dislike cruel behavior or if you quickly rationalize it.

I would hazard a guess that those who end up in entourages may well be persons who were pre-formatted by enacting a similar role as young children, before being old enough and conscious enough to be in any way capable of consent or even being able to reflect upon what they are doing.

One can keep secrets without even being told 'Keep this a secret'--if you're well trained enough in a secretive, crazy family, you'll learn to cover up and do your own personal Watergate without anyone even telling you to do it--little kids learn pre-verbally.

Solea, if you want to learn more on how this works, Marta Szabo, who spent 10 years in Syda yoga has a most remarkable blog, entitled The Guru Looked Good.

This generated a remarkable outpouring of comments as people contributed their perspectives and many began to comprehend how this recruitment into the entourage functioned--and the difference between how the entourage was treated and how outside visitors and especially the wealthy were treated...

[www.the-guru-looked-good.blogspot.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2008 02:51AM by corboy.

Yes, thanks corboy, I read the Marta Szabo blog from beginning to end in two consecutive nights barely catching a breath. It's beautifully written.

Still the question remains, "Me too? Was I really duped by my Guru(s) ... or were they both genuine mystics with some human flaws?" I am having a tough time answering that question and the process is waaay more painful than I could have ever imagined. The more answers I find, the more new questions come up to replace them.

Indeed as you say, my Gurus' wife's great benevolence could not have been possible if not for the tireless efforts of the inner cadre of devotees who drove her around (she could not drive), helped her do grocery and clothes shopping, lifted heavy boxes, cut vegetables, and did all kinds of other menial tasks to help her. We waited for her call at any time of the day or night. Evenings, weekends - those only counted in the material world. Not in the world of spiritual bliss where our joy supposedly, was service. We were told that others in the organization were desperate to do our jobs, were jealous of us even. In fact now I assume that they were not. They were at home with their spouse and/or family.

Not to mention of course that gifts of food, clothing, free hotel rooms etc., were paid for from devotee tuition fees anyway. So in essence it was devotees themselves who paid for the free meals and occasional free hotel rooms that weary, hungry out of town visitors were blessed with, along with the sweet smiles, hugs, cheek pinches and handfuls of chocolate or candy. Ahhh, but who else would have the wisdom to know just how the money should be spent, who was worthy of indulgence and who needed to pay full price etc. etc? It was our belief that it was better to give all your money to the wise ones who knew how to spend it properly anyway, not wasting a penny. Students after all were just spiritual 'children' who only spent money to gratify sense desires.

There were quite a few secrets; they served to bond us together. Such as the Guru's wife intimating that she only acted harshly with us because she was getting pressure from our Guru. That was probably true. Over the years, the more secrets we shared, the nicer her behaviour would become towards me ... even very kind, loving. After ten years it was like we were veterans of a war that nobody else understood. I have heard the words, "If you love me, never tell" more than once. I became complicit in keeping her secrets. But nobody else wants to hear them. They don't want to know.

As for being 'pre-formatted' to fit this behavior pattern as a child, I don't know. I wasn't abused as a young child or anything like that. I'll have to think about it.

I do think there was a tendancy within me to need approval from authority figures for sure. I had a happy enough childhood and I was not aware of any conscious need for a 'perfect parent' as described in the literature. Maybe that's just an almost Universal human longing.

I do think there is an overarching desire in me for clear answers about my purpose in life, the nature of the Universe and a longing for a fair, just and loving world. Achieving that inspiring goal seemed well worth a few personal sacrifices.

Sorry to be slightly off topic ... I imagine however, there are plenty of similarities with what Byron Katie's inner circle experiences too. Not that they would ever admit it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2008 06:03AM by solea13.

Word to your post, corboy. You just described parts of my previous family and working life, too. I had a family member like your mother. And I've worked in the nonprofit field and have witnessed the bosses project who project the happy, "True Believer in the Cause" persona to wealthy donors at fundraisers and then turn around and treat the employees who do the ACTUAL WORK on a project like dirt. Gah.

And although my brush with BK and The Work was brief, it made a bad impression on me, namely in that it's one more "teaching" that blames the victim. As Solea13 said, "If I got hit by a car and lay dying in the street, 'normal' people would call an ambulance. My 'spiritual' friends would proably just sit there sending me positive thoughts."

That is, if they weren't too busy leaning over the prone body of the victim and saying, "You attracted this, you know" or "You feel run over--is this true?"

What is quoted below was written by someone who spent time in a different group, with a different ideology and quite a different legitimating narrative.

But..that organization was (and reportedly remains) a set up where emotions were suppressed using a one-size fits all technique that was claimed to be a cure-all if one just did practiced it enough times--and took yet more courses, and paid yet more money to do so.

Ive seen fit to disguise the name of the group and its techniques so that readers will not get caught up in the notoriety of this group (which has been thorougly exposed elsewhere) but instead grasp the broad outlines of the danger for seekers when a technique is claimed to be healing, but instead functions to suppress one's actual nature and authentic emotions and substitues a false self.

For when a group's technique is not actually healing but is merely a clamp that is that is placed over powerful inner processes, there is the risk that this material can later lead to inner pressure that erupts, builds up, perhaps in the form of sickness, and anxiety and requires conscious acknowledgment.

If the sufferer cannot afford medical and therapeutic support, he or she is in a grave predicament.


The person describes what ensued.

So there I was on a one-month X course, (doing the X technique) 6 x a day (suggestible state). The Leader lecturing 3 x a day, telling us that X was the solution to all the world's problems, and that Xteachers were the best people on earth.

After the course, I was determined, not surprisingly, to become an X teacher. Since I already had low self-esteem and low self-confidence, I didn't have any other career plans. I dropped out of college, and went off to (a Western European country) to X my brains out, become more spiritually advanced than other people, and learn the secrets of life (to become a "knower of reality" and "an exponent of reality" were The Leader's terms.)

I returned from (my trip) and devoted as much time as I possibly could to spreading X . I went back to college, advertised for X, lectured on X, taught X, ran a club at the college. I (a dyed in the wool hippy) felt really out of sorts running around in dresses, stockings, high heels, polyester pants suits, etc., spreading the word.

I must have had a lot of ambivalence about teaching X, because after my first introductory lecture, I got a sore throat and couldn't give the preparatory one.

About 4 months after returning from (abroad), I gave an introductory lecture, and afterwards got acute appendicitis and obviously couldn't give the preparatory one.

I must confess that after my appendectomy, I actually gave an introductory lecture to some of the nurses who were taking care of me, while I was sitting up in the hospital bed and wearing a johnny! (That's how intense my loyalty was to X, I couldn't miss an opportunity to spread the word.)

After I got home from the hospital, a fellow Xteacher introduced me to a X devotee who went to the same college as me.

The first time I talked to him on the phone, I had the intuition, "This is the person I will marry. I am doing God's will, so God is making it easy for me to find my soul mate."

I thought that a mutual interest in X was enough.

I never had had intuition before, but I figured that since I was now a TM teacher, I had "support of nature." (I think today that my "intuition" was simply the hormones of a sex-starved 23 year old, plus recognizing unconsciously the dysfunctionality in him that matched the dysfunctionality in me.)

We met, we started dating, we considered ourselves introduced to each other by the hand of God.

Everything that was wrong about him or the relationship I turned into a proof (that X worked): He used to be a heroin addict? Great, that just proved that X could (heal)anyone.

He was from a different ethnic group from me? Great, X would unify the human family.

He was too old for me? Great, that meant that I could lean on his maturity as I gave my life to spreading X.

When he broke up with me two months later, I fell to pieces.

I cried, I was inconsolable, I was depressed. I didn't understand why I had unpleasant feelings. I thought that now that I was a X teacher, and teaching people to X as much as possible, I would be on an even emotional keel from now on.

After all, I had done so much X technique .....that I must now be quite spiritually "evolved."

(I remember I had a friend who became an X trainer before me, and I was therefore in awe of her. I remember her reprimanding my sister and telling my sister to go on a Training Course, saying, "I am now more evolved than you. I know what's best for you better than you do now. You should come on Trainer Course and do lots of Xing.")

Since I was now so spiritually evolved, why was I so miserable?

It was impossible.

But I was miserable.

How could I be miserable?

Was it possible that X didn't work?

But of course it worked. Look at all that research.

Then why was I so miserable?

Round and round my thinking went, in a spiral downward. My beliefs started falling apart. How could my beliefs fall apart?

Wasn't X the truth? How could it not be the truth?

But why was I feeling so miserable?

Obviously X made people happy. The research proved it. And people's experience proved it. And logic proved it.

(I remember the book about X where the author wrote, "I was tempted to call this book '(Title)' because the X'rs were always so happy."

I remember the newspaper article I read where a X'r said, "After a week of doing X you feel good, after 6 months of doing X you feel really good, and after 2 years of doing X, you wouldn't believe how good you feel!")

Before I knew it, I could teach X no more, I could talk Xno more.

How could I say X made you happy when I was so miserable?

How could a little "surface" "relative" thing like a breakup affect that "calm within" that comes from long contact from the Home of All Knowledge?

(Corboy suggests)

Because the X technique suppressed a person's actual emotions, suppressed that persons actual true self, and that requires constant effort, just like pushing a cork below the water to keep it from bobbing to the surface. Eventually, when you no longer have the alertness or energy to keep that cork submerged, it will by its inherant physical properties, makign it LIGHTER THAN WATER---float to the surface.

And if one keeps the cork of ones actual self and emotions submerged through creation and maintainance of a false self--aka cult personality--theres that to deal with when one no longer has the energy to keep that personality in place. Unfinished business in one's life pops to the surface--and must be addressed.

[forum.culteducation.com]

"And Dr. Jung warns of the hazards of amputating any part of one's psyche:

'Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much, there is always the danger that things we have neglected will return with added force.'

A spiritual teacher who has not acknowledged and integrated his or her own true self, full emotions and traumas is incapable of assisting us to do likewise.

A leader who cannot consciously face his or her own experiences of trauma and powerlessness will find it unbearable to hear other people bear witness to their own experiences of powerlessness and trauma for it will force the leader to face emotions he or she has sealed off and that send out painful anguished echoes when others try to bear witness.

A leader who cant stand to have his or her unhealed traumas echoed by the stories given by others will try to silence them--by either avoiding those who are suffering, surrounding themselves only with the young, healthy and wealthy and by avoiding those who are old, ill and poor--or may try to silence in aggressive ways anyone who tries to bear witness as to weakness, powerlessness and trauma by teachign that these are illusion, that you make your own reality, create your own misery.

Or shame those trying to bear witness by accusing them of negativity or wallowing in victim mentality. This is often quite effective since those trying to bear witness are struggling valiently to free themselves from internalized shame--but can be readily silenced if shame is activated in them by harsh and invalidating behavior from someone who claims to be a healer but is incapable of healing.

A leader who dealt with his or her traumas through suppression and denial would only be able to teach us to do the same. Which is why licensed therapists are supposed to go through training analyses and consciously work through thier own stuff--or at least go through at least a thousand plus hours of supervised training before ready to take licensing exams.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2008 12:36AM by corboy.

I went to a Byron Katie 9 day program out of curiosity. I am not a follower of her or anyone else, she is not a guru. Yes, there were some there who elevated her, very few, why is that Byron Katie’s fault? She didn’t encourage them. Nobody with her organization led any rounds of applause for her or set her apart in any way.
Most people were looking for a way to challenge their thoughts, which they got. That included challenging their thoughts about Byron Katie and her message. There was no coercion, no requirement to do anything. She suggested people give up their addictions while they were there, cell phones, tobacco, caffeine. There was no requirement to do so. I drank my Starbucks in the meeting everyday. Nobody bugged me.
Everyone was an adult. They came on their own, paid their own way, no one was asked for a donation, of time or money or possessions. There was nothing offered to her, I was at the entire meeting.
If you want to get worked up about something, get worked up about churches telling children they will suffer in hell if they don’t follow some book. That’s child abuse pure and simple. Get worked up about Mormons who want to justify pedophilia via polygamy.
Byron Katie teaches just the opposite of anything cult, it’s about critically examining what you think about.
Everyone who runs a course isn’t trying to start a cult. No one has contacted me since my participation, not a single e-mail asking for anything, no phone calls, nothing.
If she running a cult, she’s not doing a very good job of it.