of course it goes without saying that there are many lower level Byron Katie "facilitator" people who do believe that what they are doing "helps". Some of them would join the Katie Hotline to "help" people.
But in reality those people can be the most dangerous! Why?
Because they don't know what they don't know. They are completely out of it.
They can mess people's heads up, as they are totally untrained and clueless.

For example.

A person could call up, and discuss a time they thought about running their car off a bridge to end it all.
Guess what?
The Byron Katie people would do a Turnaround on that, and guess what?
They will make you blame yourself for leaving your kids as orphans, for making the ambulance drivers see the bloody corpse, etc.
That is what they do!
They do these insane "Turnarounds" on very serious issues, and make people feel horribly guilty.
They MAKE YOUR DEPRESSION MUCH WORSE.
That is exactly what Byron Katie's method does.

They are not qualified to talk about serious issues like that.
But that's all that they do, as they know that is what sells.

I notice above there is a post about Steven Sashen talking about treating serious issues? Does he have a license? Does he have any training at all? No he does not.
Do you see the blind and dangerous hubris a person would have to have to try to deal with serious issues, when they don't know anything about it? Would they also try to do some surgery too? Or repair an airplane?
Its utterly nuts and dangerous.

It looks like Byron Katie is blogging about Cancer again. Cancer sells for Byron Katie, she can't get enough cancer. She has faked having cancer already, maybe twice, and she keeps at it.
Sure, Byron Katie "loves" cancer all right, its great business.
So is death, depression, suicide, rape, murder, and everything else.
That is why Byron Katie talks about that stuff all the time.
That brings in the people who are in HORRIBLE PAIN.
Horrible pain = desperation.
They get to drop $30,000 on the Turnaround House of Horrors.
If they are on their death-bed, maybe they also get to "gift" their entire Estate to Byron Katie too?

Pain = Profits.
Ain't it the truth.

Quote
The Anticult
of course it goes without saying that there are many lower level Byron Katie "facilitator" people who do believe that what they are doing "helps". Some of them would join the Katie Hotline to "help" people.
But in reality those people can be the most dangerous! Why?
Because they don't know what they don't know. They are completely out of it.
They can mess people's heads up, as they are totally untrained and clueless.

For example.

A person could call up, and discuss a time they thought about running their car off a bridge to end it all.
Guess what?
The Byron Katie people would do a Turnaround on that, and guess what?
They will make you blame yourself for leaving your kids as orphans, for making the ambulance drivers see the bloody corpse, etc.
That is what they do!
They do these insane "Turnarounds" on very serious issues, and make people feel horribly guilty.
They MAKE YOUR DEPRESSION MUCH WORSE.
That is exactly what Byron Katie's method does.

That example is not far off from what happened in my sessions with Sashen. I shudder to think what might have happened to me if I had continued "working" with him.

Earlier discussions on this thread concerning legal and ethical guidelines that
licensed therapists are answerable to:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Exactly, if one doesnt have a license to practice psychotherapy, there is no place to go to and register a complaint if one feels harmed--and no way to do research and see if the person has a track record of previous mishaps.

But one can do such searches when pondering whether to select and work with a particular therapist if that person is licensed. And, there are limits on what a licensed therapist can charge, and clear legal guidelines that govern the propriety of certain kinds of client-therapist social interactions.

In addition, licensed therapists are supposed to function as other professionals do--to work in the best interests of the client, and to maximize benefits for the client and to minimize risk--and that means sticking with treatments that have been researched according to scientific protocol (testimonials dont count. Researchers call that 'anecdotal evidence.')

Again, it is interesting various and sundry entrepreneurs find abundant energy to market their stuff and keep up to date on all the new opportunities for self promotion afforded by the Internet.

But with rare exceptions, most human potential entrepreneurs rarely muster a fraction of their ambition to get themselves admitted to accredited programs in clinical psychology and social work, study the statistics and research design courses, diagnostics, clinical technique, do the course work on transferance, counter transferance, legal issues, and then do the thousands of supervised hours needed before one qualifies to take the written and oral tests needed to get licensed in his or her state.

And, once you get that license, you are on the map, legally accountable, (namely there is an organization where people can go to and report problems if they feel youve harmed them.)

And, licensed therapists in practice have to either carry malpractice insurance (if in private practice) or work for a clinic or group that does.

And they have to work hard to keep up with the journals and continuing education coursework required to keep that license current. A therapist in practice has to remain a life long student--and a disciplined one. He or she cannot get the easy option of socializing only with those who agree.

A friend of mine who is an LCSW has been taking a months long course in transferance and countertransferance, just to keep her license current. She studied transferance and countertransferance (issues that come up with the therapist projects stuff onto clients)--but there have been new insights about this and so, my friend has had to go back to school to keep her license fresh.

The folks with licenses cannot rest on their laurels.

And one must take periodic Continuing Ed refresher courses on changes in legal guidelines, and changes in diagnostic guidelines, too.

And there are times when therapists have to take continuing ed courses on topics that may not even be applicable to their practices--but its required, they bite the bullet and do it.

Being licensed means doing a lot of things that are not narcissistically gratifying but quite the opposite. You are answerable to someone when you harm your clients.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2008 09:56PM by corboy.

All these guidelines that licensed healers are answerable to are in place because part of professionalism means acknowleging the possiblity that one can err or even harm clients and that a framework of accountability--and restitution-- must be put in place for the benefit of clients who feel it is necessary to report harm.

Once an LCSW, MFT, MSW, Ph.D, M.D or Psy.D has a license number, that number doesnt change. That person's performance record can be followed.

But...in contrast, various human potential projects and their leaders cannot be as easily traced.

Name changes are not unusual. There is no central registry that licenses human potential entrepreneurs. It is not always easy to trace whether a human potential business is actually helping or harming people.

Professionalism means accepting a network of accountability that makes it easy to trace your performance.

Quote
yg
Hi RB,

[snip]

I don't feel it serves anyone to call people idiots. What I also found in what is stated here is the inaccuracy of certain things, such as the facillators trying to sell anything. The ones I used were always ready to give me their time in all sincerity. But I do see the danger in it.

[snip]

Attacking anyone, including the "cult leaders", is not necessary. I think that presenting the facts is important--isn't this the scientific way? I have read many places in the forum where I know what i said is simply not the way it is. I am familiar ET and actually had 3 sessions with his girlfriend. They are both sincere people. And I repeat that is what makes all of this more dangerous in the end. But to say they are this or that without knowing...to say they know what they are doing and to think we can know someone else's motivations, doesn't serve. Because if you really want to reach people caught in throws of some of these teachings, presenting it so aggressively will and I am sure does turn people away, like it did me several years ago when I visited this forum.

Hi YG,

In an ideal world no one would be calling anyone an idiot or otherwise attacking them, including the cult leaders. However, I think that people can become very angry when they realize what has happened to them in regard to cults, so it's not exactly out in left field that at times some name-calling takes place. It's a way to vent natural anger.

Sure, the name-calling can turn some people off. That is a good point to raise. But I think that most people who arrive here are already quite motivated to learn about what might really be going on with a particular cult, so that they will be able to wade through the various styles of communication and extract helpful information for themselves. If not right off the bat, then eventually.

Speaking for myself, I've had no trouble separating wheat from chaff here on this forum or at places like the dubiously helpful Guruphiliac's blog.

Again, we are living in an imperfect world. We're not going to be able to completely rid ourselves of things like name-calling. It's a part of human nature to do that now and then.

That's my two cents.

Quote
yg
I guess it's time for me to share a little bit of my experience and why I know that Katie and Eckart can be dangerous, as much, oh my god, and this is the truth that I like them and don't believe for a moment that they are doing this maliciously. THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT MORE DANGEROUS.

I had a friend who was so powerful and did "healings" on folks and people loved and trusted her and she made herself a guru. She never till this day sees what was happening.

I have another friend who is friends with Eckart and what I feel is that they really believe what they are saying and doing to the nth degree.

I'm also inclined to believe that Eckhart Tolle actually believes in what he is teaching. For one thing, I don't find him at all polished or charismatic. He totally puts me to sleep!

On the other hand we have Byron Katie. Slick, slick, slick! Watching her YouTube videos with a critical eye can really wake a person up to her manipulativeness. Unfortunately she had me fooled at first; I had really thought her to be genuine. It wasn't until I immersed myself in the astute analyses of her work here at Rick's forum that I began to see through her act. As well as read some insider views of BK in Guruphiliac's blog comments.

The thing is, I could be wrong about Eckhart as I had been about BK. He absolutely could have concocted his story and approach. We may never know, unless people come forth with insider information.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2008 10:38PM by helpme2times.

Wow, it is true that "innocent" folks who think The work helps etc. can be more dangerous. There go I but for the grace of ??

And yes, it is true we have to vent anger. I shouldn't take it personally :-)

Could be true about Tolle, who knows. But what this whole thread has brought home to me, is that to try to find the "good" in people like this can be dangerous. I know, because this kept me rapped up with that one friend turned guru. Of course, I wanted to be loving, forgiving, understanding etc. and thought I could help her out of her "insanity" and that she deserved because she was a good person and was in one way enlightened. Many years of money, manipulation intanglement with caring for her kids...on and on. When I finally broke awake, it took me months before I could be anger with her. I would say, yes she did this, BUT I understand why etc. etc.

And I understand the purpose of this board much better now.

yg

Quote
yg
Wow, it is true that "innocent" folks who think The work helps etc. can be more dangerous. There go I but for the grace of ??

And yes, it is true we have to vent anger. I shouldn't take it personally :-)

Could be true about Tolle, who knows. But what this whole thread has brought home to me, is that to try to find the "good" in people like this can be dangerous. I know, because this kept me rapped up with that one friend turned guru. Of course, I wanted to be loving, forgiving, understanding etc. and thought I could help her out of her "insanity" and that she deserved because she was a good person and was in one way enlightened. Many years of money, manipulation intanglement with caring for her kids...on and on. When I finally broke awake, it took me months before I could be anger with her. I would say, yes she did this, BUT I understand why etc. etc.

And I understand the purpose of this board much better now.

yg

I know what you mean about the danger of trying to find the good in someone who may be a dangerous cult leader. That would tend to excuse what they are doing and therefore deny the harm that people are suffering because of them. I think this sort of thing springs from the new agey practice of "positive thinking". Which I spent years trying to follow. Finally realized I was engaging in good ol' denial.

I don't think we can deny the shadow side of life without causing serious harm to ourselves. And others.

Assertiveness:

This is very important, it is the key. When culty type people are trying to manipulate you, you have to have powerful Assertivenes and boundaries.
Sure, a polite NO THANKS is great.
But how many of these culty people LISTEN to a NO?

Answer.
ZERO.

They are trained to PUSH PAST THE NO, over and over and over.
Even with Amway, Landmark and MLM, those guys never give up. Sometimes you have to tell them...IF YOU EVER BRING UP THIS SUBJECT AGAIN I WON'T TALK TO YOU AGAIN.
Then maybe they listen. Maybe.

So don't let these culty people manipulate you into thinking you have to be "nice" and let them walk over you.
We need powerful boundaries.
Every healthy animal has powerful boundaries. You come near them, and they don't like you, they growl. You keep coming, they hiss. You keep coming, they will bite you.
They escalate their defense based on the attack.

So the culty people are literally coming after people.
A polite "no thanks" DOES NOT WORK. They are trained to overcome 50 "no's" and keep trying.

But once you learn Assertiveness, ONE LOOK, done the right way, and they leave you alone.
They know you know what they are doing.

Also, nothing wrong with "name calling" from time to time.
In healthy therapy you connect with those types of feelings and learn to deal with them.
It does seem lots of folks who get abused by these culty groups might be waaayyyy "too nice".
Maybe they need to learn how to tell certain culty people to... PLEASE FUCK OFF and have a nice day, best wishes, and go fuck off now and get lost.
:-)

These culty groups FEAR your healthy assertiveness. They want you to be passive and "too nice".

Warnings about Byron Katie are making their way into personal blogs. For example:

[[url=http://nomoreverbalabuse.blogspot.com/2008/05/changin-my-thinking.html]Changing My Thinking[/url]]