Quote
vlinden
jj,


I've been reading this board non-stop for over a month, I must have read every single thread on the LGAT site. I've seen numerous incidents of trolls showing up, and I've found it very interesting to see how they operate.

For the most part, they sound exactly like Jon Willis.

They can be very disruptive, but it seems their one and only intent it is to SOW SEEDS OF DOUBT in the minds of anyone who is on the fence about a particular group.

Because everyone else on this board is absolutely clear about how destructive cults and LGATs are, these trolls are there to drive a wedge into the dialogue and keep the door open. That's why they are usually very nice, very soft spoken, and are extremely hard to get riled up. They just keep on plugging their message, over and over again.

.

quite right vlinden,
it really is not difficult at all to recognize the trolls fairly early on. For me the easy give-away is their thinly veiled anger. They say something horrid, then end with "love", "bless you" etc. It really is not very difficult to pick up the incongruency in their messages.

And as you say, they do all sound exactly alike - curious (and interesting) that they don't pick that up for themselves, eh?

In my experience, more often than not, when someone calls them on their destructive statements, they do get huffy and say they are not coming back, but more often than not, here they are, back the very next day! This petulant attitude continues for a couple of days, with the troll saying they are not coming back, wishing us "love and peace" etc. It would be laughable if it were not so pathetic. Inspite of what some posters have said about me, my intention is not to hurt these trolls - i really do feel pity and sympathy for them (having a friend who was just like them), BUT i know that nothing i say will win them over to the "Light" (sorry, could not resist that atempt at humour!), and I do not think it is helpful to them to "pretend" that I agree with them.

Anyway, very good message you posted here. Thanks,
regards,
Shad

.....however, having said all of the above, I recognize (remembering what I have read from experts on this subject), that the more one invalidates their experience, the more resistant they become to what I have to say, the more intrenched they get in their skewed paradigm...

i must admit, i do keep forgetting that, so it IS helpful to have people take the opposite approach.

I guess I have to work harder not to get so frustrated when trolls appear here.

regards,
Shad

"But, are you listening?"

I want you to know right now that the outcome of this conversation will determine whether or not I stay involved with this forum. I realize that may mean nothing to you... but I really don't know. The people here and their participation means a great deal to me. I've been relying on all of you through the last week or so. I wouldn't want anyone to leave. And, I don't want to leave... in case my being here might actually be helping someone else, too.

I came here for help, and to help others. Not to belittle, degrade, or demean anyone. I don't want to be angry with Byron Katie forever. I want to get through this and move on with my life. I got hooked in with Byron Katie because I seek peace and happiness in my life... and she was promising it. That's what I wanted. I don't want to fight.

I think it's possible that you like to fight, Anticult. If it continues, I am going to leave. This is me educating you that what's happening here is violating my boundaries. As a part of this forum, who is also allowed to be different, I have that right. If the boundary continues to be violated, I will need to leave to maintain my integrity... the same reason that I left Bryon Katie in the dust.

I do not want to offend you. I hope that you can really hear what I'm saying. You have helped me immensely, and I appreciate that. But, this stuff is hurting me and others. I'm asking for civility so that I may stay and continue to get the help... and to help others, if possible. I'm thankful for all you've shared with me, but I will not let my good feelings and positive experiences here stand in the way of my own needs, and better judgment. I'm not willing to keep supporting the anti-troll smear campaigns.

rrmoderater does not hammer trolls. I think that his way of dealing with them is much more effective, and creates a healthier, safer environment for everyone concerned.

Now, regardless of how you interpret it, there's is nothing wrong or "cult-like" about my asking people in a public forum to behave civilly, thereby adhering to social norms. It might actually be a very healthy and positive step for all of us. I understand that many of us are angry. There's nothing wrong with expressing it in healthy ways. And, there's nothing wrong with me asking for this here, in this forum.

It is possible to speak the truth without having to use it as a weapon. Sometimes, the way truth is used in here... frankly, it borders on verbal abuse. I don't feel good about it, or feel good about taking part it in. It's too easy to get caught up in it, as I have learned. As hard as I've tried, I can't turn a blind eye to it, either.

Like you, I feel really bad for people who are having their identities and minds hammered by Byron Katie. I feel even worse for those people who may come in here and have their identities and character hammered by the Byron Katie busters. It doesn't make sense to me to treat people like this in this type of setting. You can say whatever you think is true, but you don't have to beat people down with your opinion.

That's my 2 cents on it.

-jj[/quote]

WOW, You sound really angry jj, and I can't help but wonder who you are really angry with?

I don't believe that trolls have a RIGHT to be treated with civility here. On the other hand, I have not read anything here that is less than civil. When you have been here as long as I have (since August 2007 approx.) you will notice that rrmoderator DOES in fact moderate this forum, and when, in his opinion ANYONE begins to behave in a way that is not acceptable to his standards, he will first warn them, then, if his warnings are ignored, he will BAN them, (and that includes me - i recall at first being very gently warned, and subsequently was not banned)....

I hear your anger and frustration. What i would like you to understand is that you are among many people who have been hurt by LGATs, and we all have different ways in which we express our hurt and anger. Sometimes that is directed at trolls invading this forum. Well, that's too bad, but that is just how it is.

You are quite right, there IS nothing wrong with you asking for people to behave in civil ways. Just as I ask trolls like Jon Wills, NOT to come over here and PRETEND that he is here to Learn, when it is patently clear that he is here to disrupt or preach. He HURTS the participants of the forum when he invalidates their experience
- sorry, but that I WILL NOT keep silent about - I will continue to call trolls on that

you write about Anticult "I think it is possible that you like to fight" - you are making a HUGE - and eroneous - assumption here. I have been reading Anticults posts for over 6 months now and it is my assessment that Anticult does indeed CHALLENGE, and i can see why this might cause you discomfort.

also, you write: "if this continues I am going to leave" - giving people untimatums is not an effective means of communication, and i did chuckle a bit when i read this, because my friend did exactly the same thing with me. I would either AGREE with her, or she threatened to cut off all communication with me. I wonder if you can see how immature and unreasonable this is? You are saying in effect: "You will do what I want or I will leave" - doesn't this remind you a bit of how children behave?

I sounds like you are not feeling heard? - please correct me if I am wrong.

regards,
Shad

Quote
vlinden
jj,

It's true that being kind, compassionate and understanding is very important, and I understand that you don't want to fight. But in reality, some people do want to fight. You don't have to take part, and you can always offer a more understanding voice if other people are getting hot under the collar. But in truth, I haven't seen anything on this board that even comes close to the level of abuse that takes place regularly on other forums all over the Internet -- have you ever posted on Huffington Post? It's vicious over there!

I really feel that if people do not want to read the information on this board because some of it is too harsh, or people's emotions or anger are present, they are not ready to wake up yet. This is a board of people who have woken up, and yes, many are pissed off.

Vlinden,
WELL SAID!

regards,
Shad

To whom it may concern:

Please to be civil and reasonable.

There should be no need for anyone to leave due to a lack of civility.

Flaming and personal attacks are against the rules.

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The Anticult
It was a positive sign that at least Jon Willis appeared to stop just running patterns from The Work, and began to appear to be more genuine. That being said, a 10 second simple search of the Google cache from only a few weeks ago (the posts are older) is quite revealing...

Jon Willis
"I am a 36 year old guy that has learnt and is continuing to learn that unhappiness and suffering are caused by thoughts and beliefs that I buy into - nothing else. If you want to try it out for yourself, email me and we will set up a free one-on-one session."

So he was trying to do The Work for profit, as a business, notice the code-words..."nothing else".

yep, Anticult, it sure did not take him long to state his REAL (authentic? - hah hah) purpose for coming over to this forum, eh?

regards,
Shad

I'd like to add in my 2 cents...

I'm one of the folks who got taken in by Byron Katie's approach. Some of the people expressing themselves here have NOT been in this position.

Which doesn't at all mean that they can't or shouldn't have their say.

In fact, for me some of the most helpful/informative comments have come from these people.

(Sorry if that sounds a little icky there: "these people". I'm too lazy at the moment to phrase it more PC-ly.)

The main thing I want to say re what JJ opened up is... I'm loving the dialoguing that is coming out now. This is very real stuff. And getting real like this - as opposed to getting real ala Byron Katie's twisted version of "reality" - is SUCH a breath of fresh air for me, after trying so hard to "undo" my thinking and emotions... and eventually my grip on objective reality.

I certainly will try along with JJ to be as diplomatic as I can when posting here, because I want to be a helpful resource for the people who may come here with doubts, concerns, etc. re BK's method. Y'all are NOT crazy or a failure if "the work" hasn't been working for you.

That said, I do at times appreciate the sometimes stronger and even harsh expressions in this forum. I think they have their place.

There, I've said my peace. :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2008 05:30AM by helpme2times.

Responding to all of this is quite a task. My responses are in bold.

Quote
vlinden
jj,

Because this is actually not a group in any sense of the word, no one is affiliated in any way, it's just a bunch of individuals posting, we really don't have any control over each other.

Exactly, we don't have any control over trolls coming in here. So why has so much control over this person been exerted? Pardon me for using the word "group" to describe more than one person hanging on in a forum. The word "forum" got tedious. I'll be more consistent next time.

I've been reading this board non-stop for over a month, I must have read every single thread on the LGAT site. I've seen numerous incidents of trolls showing up, and I've found it very interesting to see how they operate.

For the most part, they sound exactly like Jon Willis.

I've seen that, too. BUT there were some important differences. Jon Willis has given me permission to share some of what was said in private here on the forum. I'm not comfortable doing that, but I will tell you that things here on this site made a difference for him, and he tried to hang in here, but couldn't because of the way he was being treated. He came here to learn. And he got SMEARED.

Perhaps I am more sensitive about this, because I know what it's like being in Byron Katie's hell. I know how important this forum has been for me. I can't imagine what it would have been like if you all had smeared me like you did him. Okay, so I had already figured some stuff out on my own by reading for months and months. Jon hadn't. He came here fresh from the trenches.



They can be very disruptive, but it seems their one and only intent it is to SOW SEEDS OF DOUBT in the minds of anyone who is on the fence about a particular group.

He didn't sow any doubt in my mind. And I'm someone who actually been through Byron Katie's world.


I've seen people getting waaay more aggressive with trolls then they have here with Jon Willis, but it's very hard to get them to go away no matter how angry you get, or even how thoroughly you expose them, because they have a mission here, and they want to stay in the room.

I don't see what other threads have to do with one, but you might notice that Jon actually left TWICE. He was leaving once, and I asked him to stay. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but the guy wasn't just another troll. That's my opinion.


However, that said, it is hard at times to tell the difference between a well meaning person who is still brainwashed and a real troll.

Funny, I'm the one who got sucked into Byron Katie's lair, and it was still pretty obvious to me.

It's true that being kind, compassionate and understanding is very important, and I understand that you don't want to fight. But in reality, some people do want to fight. You don't have to take part, and you can always offer a more understanding voice if other people are getting hot under the collar. But in truth, I haven't seen anything on this board that even comes close to the level of abuse that takes place regularly on other forums all over the Internet -- have you ever posted on Huffington Post? It's vicious over there!

Thanks for the lecture on reality, and I don't see what that has to do with anything. When someone comes into a "Cult Education Forum" to learn whether or not they are involved in a cult, and the people who should be educating him are fighting with him on any level instead... is totally inappropriate.

My experience has been that the people on this board are among some of the most articulate and passionate and honest and truly caring people I've ever encountered. And they are REAL. They're being themselves -- some of them for the first time in many years, since they joined some New Age mind control group that told them they could never get angry. When the anger and hostility arises, it's usually for a very good reason, and indeed a lot of people have been so hurt through LGATs and cults, they are venting some of that feeling here where they will be understood. I don't think you're ever going to stop that from happening, and I think it might be possible for you to understand why it happens and accept it.

I suppose I don't already understand that, then. Well, thanks for clearing that up! You're being rather condescending, and I have no idea what this has to do with the group... oh, excuse me... the forum attacking someone who came here to learn.


I really feel that if people do not want to read the information on this board because some of it is too harsh, or people's emotions or anger are present, they are not ready to wake up yet. This is a board of people who have woken up, and yes, many are pissed off.

I wonder if you noticed that in both of my posts, I acknowledged the anger here, and it's right to be here. I'm angry, too. As far as Byron Katie goes, I'm sure I lost more to her than you did, and I have the right to be angry as well.

When a person still involved with a group comes here truly looking for answers to the problems with the group that are plaguing them -- like you (though I know you were out of the group already) -- it is very difficult to get them confused with a troll.

OBVIOUSLY. I posted once about what goes on in the mind of a Byron Katie groupie, to try to help you all see that he was not giving plugs... he was STUCK. I'm sorry I didn't just come right out and say, HEY, leave this one alone! I was afraid you all would turn on me, and I can see that I had just cause for concern.


However, I think it's really important that people within mind-control fantasy groups get a taste of real life, here on this board.

Well, I don't know where you're living, but in real life, when you go some where for help and education, you don't usually get creamed for showing up there.

I've been grateful for the honesty and anger expressed here, the hurt is real. Coming from friends and spouses, especially, who have lost people they love. People who get sucked into these groups -- or who are about to -- need to know exactly how it effects the rest of us still in the "real" world, where everything is not "positive" and "peaceful" all the time, and we are not looking for ways out of our pain, but feeling it cutting through us at every moment.

I don't believe I asked for things to be positive and peaceful all the time, and it's baffling that you twisted it into that. You can be honest, emotional, and CIVIL. I'm rapidly losing my ability to do this in regards to the forum. You keep defending everyone's right to feel and express their feelings, which I never debated, but you've shown very little regard for mine.

-jj

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The Anticult
PPS: just noticed that the Bandler Neurosonics recordings are up on the torrents networks.

Where would I find the torrents for these recordings? I'd like to try one or two out, just for the hell of it. I torrent tons of music, so am very familiar with how torrenting works.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner! I believe, or, I've been informed that everything now is-uh just exactly perfect, so we'll go on.

Robert Hall Weir, 6/9/77



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2008 05:50AM by Guruphobiac.

Quote
vlinden
JJ,

One of your comments makes me think . . . You say you don't want to hate BK for the rest of your life.

You're absolutely right. As as child, I was abused. If I held onto that anger all my life, I would never be able to be free from it. I feel the same way about Byron Katie. I don't want this woman to have a hold over me all my life. I came here to get free, and I'm sorry if you see a problem with that.

A big part of all of these groups, and BK, is how they tell people to deal with feelings of fear, hatred, etc. Obviously, these feelings don't feel good. And of course in the extreme, combined with dysfunction, they can immobilize someone, or ruin their lives.

Listen, I have no problem feeling my feelings, and I'm not too keen on your attempts to make ME look like a Bryon Katie supporter.

However, as you know, fear and hatred are indispensable to being alive, being human, surviving, creating, inventing, choosing and evolving. So is every other 'negative' emotion.

Why are you lecturing me about this? Preaching to the choir, ma'am.

What BK teaches is the most extreme form of delusion I've ever encountered -- worse than Landmark by a sight -- in the way she instructs people to consistently disable the critical thought processes, linked with emotion, that lead to these feelings.

Yes, and I've actually BEEN there. So what is your point?

One of the results of this that bothers me deeply is creating people who do not know how to properly react to danger or truly negative situations.

Really? Well that bothers me, too. Did you learn that from MY post on that very thing? JON DID NOT KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY REACT TO THE DANGER AND NEGATIVITY IN HERE. And you all didn't give him a break!



I like to talk about reality, myself.

Me, too. What a coincidence.


So, in a world increasingly out of control, I see BK's teachings as even more insidiously harmful because she is creating vases of flowers where there could be real forces for change.

All the rest of this was very well said, and I still have no idea what any of that has to do with my feelings, and the fact this forum really let someone down with their paranoia and negativity.

-jj