jj, thx for the Insiders look at a Katiephiliac...very interesting.

Because, from the outside, one can see someone lying. Just not telling the truth.
But from the inside, its all been warped, and they see it as something else.

Of course, those at the TOP who make a ton of CASH from this stuff, know what they are doing.
But the lower end newbies are often True Believers.
That being said, all those websites from our loving friend, brother Jon Willis, does point to a lot of hard-work and self-conscious internet promotion. Lets see Jon spin that one!

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The Shadow

Quote
Jon Willis
Hi Anticult,


Looking back on my initial post I can see how the 'free online' thing could be seen as pushing that - sadly, that wasn't my intention, that was more about stressing that I'm not a 'paid out loads of money on workshops, etc' person.

Jon

So, please, please please, tell me what is your intention for posting here? People HERE are talking about their negative experiences with LGATs such at Katie's, so why oh why do you continue to try to tell them different.

The point of this forum is to VALIDATE their feelings/experiences. You just don't SEEM to "get it". If you cannot say, "I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience, that really sucks" etc. WITHOUT then adding, "but I had the opposite experience", then you are in the wrong place. Get it?

regards,'
Shad

I am trying to have patience with him, as he seems to be a True Believer.

But my patience will only hold out for so long.

If Jon returns and amps up his attempts to defend "the work", I don't know how I'll handle it. Gawd help me if that happens!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2008 10:31AM by helpme2times.

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helpme2times

Quote
The Shadow

Quote
Jon Willis
Hi Anticult,


Looking back on my initial post I can see how the 'free online' thing could be seen as pushing that - sadly, that wasn't my intention, that was more about stressing that I'm not a 'paid out loads of money on workshops, etc' person.

Jon

So, please, please please, tell me what is your intention for posting here? People HERE are talking about their negative experiences with LGATs such at Katie's, so why oh why do you continue to try to tell them different.

The point of this forum is to VALIDATE their feelings/experiences. You just don't SEEM to "get it". If you cannot say, "I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience, that really sucks" etc. WITHOUT then adding, "but I had the opposite experience", then you are in the wrong place. Get it?

regards,'
Shad

I am trying to have patience with him, as he seems to be a True Believer.

But my patience will only hold out for so long.

If Jon returns and amps up his attempts to defend "the work", I don't know how I'll handle it. Gawd help me if that happens!

honestly, I don't know what he's doing over here anyway, he really does not have anything to offer, except to "defend" his position, which he keeps saying he is not defending!

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The Shadow
honestly, I don't know what he's doing over here anyway, he really does not have anything to offer, except to "defend" his position, which he keeps saying he is not defending!

Here's here to plant the seeds of The Work inside the critical threads, to hook followers of the Work who are reading these threads, gently back into The Work. To lead them back Home..to The Work.
Expect more of it.

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The Anticult

Quote
The Shadow
honestly, I don't know what he's doing over here anyway, he really does not have anything to offer, except to "defend" his position, which he keeps saying he is not defending!

Here's here to plant the seeds of The Work inside the critical threads, to hook followers of the Work who are reading these threads, gently back into The Work. To lead them back Home..to The Work.
Expect more of it.

Hi Anticult,
of course you are right; it just gets so frustrating (but I guess that might also be his purpose:- to frustrate people), reading through the diatribe and half-truths.

regards,
Shad

Quote
The Anticult
For all we know, Byron Katie took The Forum with Werner Erhard in 1986, had a mental breakdown like many do, flopped out for a weekend at some roach motel or house, and came up with the idea to do her own version of The Forum, but instead of yelling, do a Turnaround into making it seem move Loving, and adding in hypnosis, Trance stories like the cockroach, and about 100 other techniques added in over the years.

What's more likely? The above, or a magical supernatural hypnotic cockroach?

i thought they were one and the same, lol

a friend just lent me a CD set...

A THOUSAND NAMES FOR JOY, 6 hours of audio from someone named Byron Katie, and her renowned unknown hubbie Stephen Mitchell.
Lets put it on right now..

...New Age music...so spiritual...I am in a Trance already....
- Stephen Mitchell starts with a preframe, and the false origin Story.
- pitch the 4 Questions...this is very Trancy already...confusing less than 2 minutes in...
- PITCH WEBSITE, to recruit.

- starts with pitching hubbies book!! Tao Te Ka-Ching.
- Katie starts with pure Trance induction...totally confusion, created by talking about confusion! That is very elegant.
- Peace, stress, feelings, What Is, don't believe your Thoughts, Story, its all Jargon, meant to confuse.
- More PR of Steve's book! Ka-Ching!!!
- She says she is not a Guru Master, (means she is) Deflection...I am Not a guru, Anti-Guru blog.
- found The Way...then she says she MAY be a Master. (what a manipulator!)
- she is getting deeper into the Trance...more about the Tao...(book promo).

- this woman is not crazy at all, not at all. This is totally self-conscious hypnotic Induction. This is hypnosis 101, taking you inside...
- I am getting bored already...yadda yadda yadda...that is on purpose...part of the Induction...just words to smooth you into the DREAM..

-BOOM: she does Erickson Hypnosis RIGHT THERE. "it takes a moment for a child to fall into the Dreamworld" THAT IS YOU FOLKS..that is a command to the unconscious to the DREAMWORLD...pure hyposis, as taught by Bandler.
- random jargon...names...circular...illusion.
- This woman is a hypnotist,and very deceptive.
- more confusion, deeper, the mystery is no mystery...:-)
- this is just stage #1, mess with the conscious mind, to get it out of the way. She could talk about monkeys, it doesn't matter.

- mom is DYING from CANCER...Katie is Mother Theresa...she is dying from CANCER...more death, mom is dead.
- more on DEATH, mom is not dead...she loves her story about mom.
- More DEATH with a GUN pointed at her. Killing. Katie is not afraid of death by gun. She thanks him for pulling a gun on her. she is JOYFUL she is being robbed at gunpoint? (she is going to ROB you soon too, and you are going to like it too).
- there is no BAD or GOOD. the source is DARKNESS. Darkness is god? (this is about Evil).The Darkness is Good. Evil is Good? Is Katie Darth Vader?
- nothing is true. so LAUGH

-there is no good or bad. everything is beautiful.
- more confusing jargon...to push Mind away.there is no Reality.
- everything is God, even a car alarm.
- no such thing as a BAD ACTION. There is no BAD. No bad people? Even Hitler must not be bad then?
-STRONG VOICE CUE, RIGHT NOW, to being you in.
- going deeper, what was BAD is GOOD. Where is she going? Bad is good?
- TEACUP: this is an anchor she uses, Tea, Teacup...Tea Story...just LEADING you...
- LET GO of everything...to who? Katie?

-I don't know how much more of this tripe I can take!

- THE MASTER LEADS, Katie is leading your mind hypnotically.
- by now, Katie is The Master...She...more word twisting.
- SALAD story, to take you deeper into Trance, COLORS..induction to take you deeper...this is all still Pre-Trance work.
- More story, is just Hypnosis 101, inner storytelling, and she is LEADING YOU in it. This is Pacing and Leading.

- FALL ON THE FLOOR, time for a rest. Hilarious! The floor is now talking...Trance...
- Surreal dream images...
-This stuff is just filler, a pause in the Induction...now its morning..

- EYE DISEASE, poor Katie is sick again!!! Love her all you loving ladies! (what a female guilt manipulator).

- toothbrush Induction...shower, just leading you DEEPER INSIDE...bathtub induction...you are now NAKED and vulnerable with Sexy Katie ladies..
-make-up...accept your face as is? more female junk about make-up! :-)
- more Induction, with Stevo there too, with you NAKED, you and Steve...sexy...

- NEW STAGE: don't believe your thoughts...
- YOUR MIND OPENS..here we go ladies...OPEN THE MIND...

- Darkness, Void..is the womb, fall in LOVE WITH DARKNESS.
- more No Evil stuff...gee, guilty conscience much Katie?
- no sinners or saints...she is pushing pushing pushing...

- ALL SUFFERING IS MENTAL. installing her belief in you.
- Pain is HEAVEN!!! :-) Pain is your friend..
- Not conscious, back to the PHONE CALL cue,
- there are no victims...more DEATH stuff. ..prison, muder rape...she sure seems attracted to this?
- more death, little girl burnt to death to SHOCK YOU. You are open now, she is LEADING you...BLEW HIS MIND. (yours)
- its good the daughter is dead. maybe its for the best she's dead?

- INFINITE WORLDS: non-duality stuff...
- You are the world, you and Michael Jackson?
- Solipsism pitch! bingo! You are the world.
- everything is Katie

- DEATH, here we go!
- There is only Mind.
-STORY pitch. I Am.
- back to TOOTHBRUSH cue, to deepen Trance.

- My mind is tired just listening to this tripe, which is the GOAL.

- There is no DEATH, more about TORTURE.
- more BS about 1986, that needs to be investigated by an investigator.
- Master is always watching...
- more She She She,She is One...Katie is FUSING her with YOU. She wants to take OVER YOUR MIND. Literally.

- CLEAR MIND, Scientology?
- love being humble..hahah, LOVE being in the Audience...(pre-pitch for The School already).
- more metaphor hypnosis stuff...birds, stones...just for Trance...
-more CLEAR mind stuff...childlike...

- she is just doing Trance on people, WITHOUT TELLING THEM. Very nasty and unethical.

- there is no reality, no anything, no self...
- Last Judgement, back to the bathroom for Trance.

- I love Katie, me me me...SHE's almost BLIND, more sickness...more Katie she Love, Love LOves...
- trying to push a type of Mania..loving everything...LoveBomb starting...
- the floor is perfect...Trance about stairs, footsteps...rainbows...
- UP A STAIRCASE, the CD must be ending, to bring you out of theTrance...
- post-hypnoptic suggestions: more Love, don't believe Story,

- UP-Down are the same thing, inside-outside,
- mentions Work, NOTHING BELONGS TO ME...(like your Rolex?)

- back to more consicous confusion. There is no Self..setting hypnotic cues..chair, cup...
- you are the center of the Universe... you are Oneness, etc.

- BINGO!!!!!!
- IF i LOSE ALL MY MONEY - GOOD!
- IF I GET CANCER - GOOD!! (she loves the cancer gag)
- DIVORCE - GOOD!
- She does not try to IMPOSE HER WILL ON YOU. (stronger voice on those words, which is the command as she does impose it)
- CONVERT YOU, HEAL YOU, Lead people, false choice.
- found THE WORK inside her.
- some story about her kids...mom stuff...she's just a sweet mom guys....

- Now you mind is OPEN SPACE, for her!
- NOTHING TO LOSE...pre-frame...
- I am the center of everything, strong voice cue...
- you are comfortable with anyone, no matter how DEPRAVED.
- question your own Indentity...our world Changes...lose your entire world...
- trying to dissolve your mind...its all a metaphor...open your mind and heart...QUESTION YOUR THINKING.
- STORY, who are you? no hope or faith. Abundance...
- hypnosis cues again...Abundance, generousity...
- Self-Realization, gratitude...
- FUSION, come Home...to the Master.
- more colors, sounds, flavors, hypnosis cues...
- enjoy the show...be passive...

- Solipsism again...
-4 Questions pitch, Elightenment is a story,
-Thoughts..
- desert? Milton Erickson lived in Phoenix Arizona? Did she study with him?

- reversal questions, right out of the book. Classic.
- Is she enlightened? blah blah...loaded question.
- more about Thoughts...more confusing images, double-bind...
- MIND IS A TERRORIST. Mind is a nightmare. (wrong!)
- more gibberish about Nothingness...
- She is now The Master,
- walking throught the Questions..happy your wife left you for another man. (sounds like Swinger talk!!!),

-your problem is your THINKING...
- God prayer, Amen...She is Holy...but says she does not pray in the next breath!! :-)
- she says I LOVE YOU, in a sweet voice...to touch people.

- Thoughts, trying to disable the thinking mechanism...Death is a good as life.
- more STORY, stuff, that is The Landmark Forum, straight up.

- DEATH, more death of a husband! But there is no grief even with death! Grieving people must be a big Market for products? He is not dead, as he is her.
- The Master: her Work is done...and they think they did it...
- I LOVE BEING INVISIBLE, she says...so she's God? You are me, and I am you.
- Near Death Experience, she came back to SAVE US. (is this Katie?)

- She now diffuses that she is a Spiritual Teacher. you see me an an ENLIGHTENED BEING and an ALL-KNOWING GURU. or a good friend..(meant to create the Image in your mind).

- All she offers is the 4 Questions to disassemble your Idenity. She wants to mess with your Indentity. DIS-ASSEMBLE EVERYTHING THEY THINK THEY ARE she uses DIS-ASSEMBLE several times.

- have it for breakfast everyday...she talks about being an anti-guru. where have we heard that? Its delfection.
- preaching dependency...
(notice how she seems to say the exact opposite? That is a hypnotic suggestion)
_________________________________________________

That was CD #1, and rough notes as I listened to it. Its very clear.

1) Rapport: this is the jokes, light conversation, pre-Trance BKI uses, they all do it.
2) Confusion: all of the double-binds, confusion, is meant to occupy the conscious mind, the part of you that might say.."am I being conned?" She overwhelms your Mind with it.
3) Trance: she leads you into Deep Trance using standard techniques, strange stories, etc. Very standard, up and down in Trance to make it deeper, etc.
4) once you get deep enough, she starts with the Suggestions, planting ideas like seeds, her Beliefs start to get planted in your mind.
5) admits she is going to completely Dis-assemble your Identity and your Mind. That is very scary folks, she can do it.
6) get you into The School for The Work LGAT, and do 100 other things to take over your Mind.

So, she is using very sophisticated Waking Hypnosis, influenced strongly by Ericksonian Hypnosis. The goal is to deeply bond with you with a Love-transference, and hypnotize you while awake, and then to LEAD you somewhere. The CD will eventually suggest The School, and other avenues. But the first CD lays the groundwork.
In this type of hypnosis, whatever she says...even the negatives, are meant to create Images of her in your mind, that she is an Enlightened Being, even God herself.

Clearly she is amoral, and does not see there is anything such as Good or Bad. So if someone "robs" you, like she said, that's GOOD. So if she robs you at hypnotic gunpoint, that is GOOD too.

Its funny, about the 100K story, when the person said their family member handed over 100K to Katie. I thought before, if someone pulled a gun and robbed you of 100K, they go to jail.
But if you hypnotise them, and they give it to you, you are still robbing them, but its legal? Funny she should use that metaphor of being robbed at gunpoint and loving it?

This woman is 100% totally sane. Very very smart, and an excellent but abusive hypnotherapist. Clearly she is not licensed in hypnosis, so no one knows she is doing it!
All that weird stuff, is just waking hypnotic Induction Stories to get to the unconscious. She has just chosen to do them all the time in public, to create a hypnotic distortion field. Nothing new in anything she is doing.
But she is very good. She is no different that this Wendi woman, but Wendi seems to at least tell you she is doing hypnosis. [www.wendi.com] Ask Wendi about Byron Katie,and she will laugh out loud.(but watch out for Wendi too! She seems to be more about selling stuff, not being a culty Guru, so far).

Byron Katie is very dangerous, why? Because she is doing it all covertly to vulnerable people, and making herself into some type of Enlightened Being, for her own selfish reasons.

Probably the best way to block it, is to tell everyone that EVERY WORD Byron Katie says in public is part of a covert waking HYPNOSIS. Just let everyone know that...
WARNING: BYRON KATIE IS DOING WAKING HYPNOSIS ON YOU ALL THE TIME.

She keeps it secret, as knowing it, wrecks her process. So tell everyone, shout it from the housetops.

Its waking hypnosis, with every other trick of the LGAT thrown in at The School.
It will not be surprising if sometime in the future a private investigator will turn up evidence she studied some of the Milton Erickson material, as well of course as all the LGAT stuff, like The Landmark Forum, and the rest of the LGAT's from the 1970's-80's to the present..

Its not surprising that ole Stever Robbins is her good buddy, he sees what she is doing, and they both have the same Ethics. (zero). To go out and do this heavy shit to soccer moms, and trusting people, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE, it really is wrong. Its not only wrong, its sick. Its leading people into her dark world, for her own reasons.
Its simply a flagrant abuse of this type of hypnosis and persuasion, as its all hidden.
Stay far far away from this woman. Don't "believe" a single word she says...its all Trance Induction waking hypnosis, and embedded suggestions, meant to draw you under her spell...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2008 12:59PM by The Anticult.

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The Anticult
jj, thx for the Insiders look at a Katiephiliac...very interesting.

Because, from the outside, one can see someone lying. Just not telling the truth.
But from the inside, its all been warped, and they see it as something else.

Of course, those at the TOP who make a ton of CASH from this stuff, know what they are doing.
But the lower end newbies are often True Believers.
That being said, all those websites from our loving friend, brother Jon Willis, does point to a lot of hard-work and self-conscious internet promotion. Lets see Jon spin that one!

Yep. Now that I'm not involved anymore, I can look back and see the havoc that The Work did to me, and how I must have appeared to other people. When I was involved in it, I couldn't see that at all. I couldn't understand what other people were seeing, either.

The Work has a way of killing one's ability to be objective.

Now, I get it.

-jj

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The Anticult
honestly, I don't know what he's doing over here anyway, he really does not have anything to offer, except to "defend" his position, which he keeps saying he is not defending!

Here's here to plant the seeds of The Work inside the critical threads, to hook followers of the Work who are reading these threads, gently back into The Work. To lead them back Home..to The Work.
Expect more of it.[/quote]

----------------
That might be his agenda. It certainly looks that way.

But, having been heavily involved in The Work, I would venture a guess that his presence here is far more self-ish than that. People involved in The Work are totally selfish and self-centered. The Work programs them to be this way.

But, I really don't know what was going on in his head. I won't pretend that I didn't notice the plugs for The Work, and the dishonest attempts to try to convince us that he was not heavily involved in Byron Katie's world. I think he may have been trying to convince us what a wonderful he person he was--different from the other trolls, and attribute that to The Work. I also noticed that he was living/doing/speaking The Work as he went along. That in itself was a hook.

Yet I get the impression that his presence here was more about convincing himself, than us. Someone may have given him this link, then he may have read something that rocked his Byron Katie fantasy... and maybe he felt the need to convince himself that his perception was all right by seeking validation from us. Who knows?

I would be very surprised if he returned.

Maybe I don't understand how this forum is supposed to work. Is the idea to keep trolls out, by any means necessary? Will someone explain this to me?

Anyone involved in The Work of Byron Katie who comes to this forum has a chance of getting freed from it... unless we badger them to the point that they have to leave for their own well-being. I came here partially to share what I know to help others... whether that is by preventing them from tangling with The Work, or breaking the spell they are already under.

Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing here? Do I misunderstand the purpose of this forum?

I understand that people here are angry and defensive over what he did and said... rightfully so. Is there a better, more civil way to handle apologists? After all, they are people... and at some point, they were the victim who didn't have the correct information to keep them out of Byron Katie's web. Isn't this forum here to educate-- to give people correct information about these things? There has to be a better way to deal with this. What if someone really was here to learn, but was entrenched enough in Byron Katie Land to behave badly-- like they've been trained to do... without the awareness that they were doing so?

What if Jon was one of those people? He read the threads, and seemed willing to keep learning. Now, we've treated him pretty poorly... and I would be surprised to see him back.

(And I'm not saying Jon was one of those people, but what if?)

The information we are providing here must be very scary for people involved in The Work, who have invested so much, and hang their future on Byron Katie's teachings. I expect resistance from them, and I don't feel threatened by it. I don't want to slaughter anyone... even if Byron Katie sent him here herself.

It's been suggested that we post links to this thread on other sites. I don't want to post these links other places, because frankly, I'm embarrassed by the way we've behaved at times towards these people. Jon may have lied, and may have had an agenda for us all... but he was civil. And, unfortunately, that makes us here at the forum look like the barbarians. Who would take us seriously like this?

The people involved in Byron Katie's LGAT... I was one of them, once upon a time. I was more involved that I generally talk about here, to protect my anonymity. If I had found this forum earlier, and was still behaving like Jon... I would not have hung around long enough to find out what I needed to know. No one likes to be treated this way. Least of all love-bombed mind control victims.

I really love the way rrmoderator responds to trolls. He is factual, frank, and civil. If we want people to take us seriously, I think we ought to try harder to do the same.

You all are an amazing group of people. I'm so grateful for all you have taught me. You have so much to share... that needs to be shared. I need to hear it... and others, like Jon, need to hear it, too.

Can we please be more diplomatic and civil about these matters?

Please?

-jj



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2008 02:12PM by jj52.

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The Anticult
a friend just lent me a CD set...

A THOUSAND NAMES FOR JOY, 6 hours of audio from someone named Byron Katie, and her renowned unknown hubbie Stephen Mitchell.
Lets put it on right now..

Anticult,

My legs went numb while I was reading your notes. I bought that book, read a few passages, and got rid of it the next day. I was still doing The Work regularly, but that book... was way too much for me.

Now, I know why.

THANKS!

-jj