Splash90, it was a good try. I didn't think anything critical would last. Wouldn't excerpts from Katie's own books be considered a reliable source? Losing The Moon has some real whoppers!

One good thing that came from my trek to Downtown Salt Lake City, after seeing BK's face plastered all over the wall at the one bookstore, was that I went to the SLC Public Library (which is just awesome) and found Margaret Singer's Cults In Our Midst that same day. It's been on my list of books to read, I was so excited that I found it.

I've been wondering while reading this book, why do authors like Tolle and Katie use obviously Buddhist teachings but never mention Buddhism?
One idea that came to me was the selflessness that it promotes seems perfect for wannabe cult leaders. They bank on the respectability of Buddhist-like ideas. Their goal is to attack the individuality and selfhood of their followers, to make them passive, compliant followers. Buddhism seems a pre-packaged belief system that vilifies the self, the ego, the concept of being an "I" separate from others. And when people hear that kind of talk they think Eastern, Ancient Wisdom, the Buddha, no red flags go up.

Thanks, P... oh well - I figure if people are reading about her on Wikipedia they'll likely read about her on other websites too like this forum, and that blog about her school that I used as references (the links in my other post.) And heck, if people who read her books aren't bothered by her 'interviews', then nothing they read about her online would be likely to change their minds about her. At least, those are the things I'm consoling myself with! It bugs me that the page is so 'glowing' about her. At the end it lists how she was named one of TIME's most influential people. (Hey, I guess if ANY influence is what you're looking at, not just GOOD influence, Hitler would definitely be on that list.) But... what can ya do... if it was the Scientology page I was putting stuff on they would have found me by now and threatened to kill me and/or my family if i didn't desist. So it could be worse!! LOL

No cult I've ever heard of will ever give credit for any of its ideas to any other source other than its venerated founder/leader. The leader has to get all the credit for the amazing teaching. For one thing, it would make the leader's 'enlightenment' less believable and awe-inspiring, and for another, people might look into the REAL source of the ideas and get drawn away to follow that instead. So I'm not surprised that Buddhism is never mentioned, even though on the face of it the teachings are extremely similar.

After I left the ICOC, I found out that the bible study series upon which the entire movement was based was actually written by some obscure little mid-Western Church of Christ minister in the '60s. ICOC's founder Kip McKean took full credit for it (the front of it says "by Kip McKean")... I guess he felt he could because he added in just a FEW sentences here and there to twist it and make it more controlling. Besides of course the fact that he couldn't open his mouth or put pen to paper without a lie coming out LOL

(Trait 4: Pathological lying - [Cult leaders] lie coolly and easily, even when it is obvious they are being untruthful. It is almost impossible for them to be consistently truthful about either a major or minor issue. They lie for no apparent reason, even when it would seem easier and safer to tell the truth… [www.rightcyberup.org])

And I'm sure you're right that the similarities gives it more credibility even if on an unconscious level. I wouldn't have joined any cult that went against my Christian beliefs, and I know there are people who would only be drawn into a group that had those Eastern-type beliefs that would resonate with them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2010 03:51AM by Splash90.

Ah, AC, you are now officially my cult activist role model! After a couple of days of research on BK I started posting comments on some websites and I wrote a letter to Oprah and Steven Hassan. I posted comments on those YouTube videos. And then of course my try for Wikipedia Criticism that failed. And guess what? The comments I posted on the BK pages on Oprah.com DIDN'T get posted. (Maybe if a bunch of people make comments, they'll eventually get the message.) Ugh!! But I wrote the O editor too. And you know what, I've been feeling embarrassed about doing this stuff, like it's obsessive or a waste of time or naive. This post was just what I needed to read. I just hate so much to see people being hoodwinked and hurt by this stuff. My only problem is that it affects me emotionally to the point that it affects my behavior, so I have to limit my time spent with it (that's why I shut down my recovery forum), or with ANY bad news about bad stuff going on in the world. I had PTSD, and I still have depression/anxiety. If I weren't so sensitive I'd love to get licensed to be a full-time cult counselor like Steven Hassan.

Quote
The Anticult

Quote
vlinden
I just Googled Byron Katie to see if any of these threads come up, but I went through 5 pages and didn't see anything.
What can we do to make the Rick Ross site come up sooner when people Google Byron Katie?

Many things.
First off, Google Byron Katie and a "negative" word, and see what comes up then!

But this is how to get a better Google ranking.

-each time you post, use full words, no just BK, but Byron Katie, and full names and words, those are KEYWORDS. And fill in a good descriptive TITLE to each post you make!

-LINKS LINKS LINKS: each person needs to go and post some links to these threads, on other message forums, blog comments, everywhere. Make 1-3 new links each day before you read the forum,or something like that.
Link to the main page, or a specific post. You can get the link to the specific post by pressing on the DATE in the post.
Then make those LINKS and use good cross-posted keywords in the link, that contain Byron Katie, and the specific detail. Once there are 100 links to this forum, then it may appear. BUT, Byron Katie has her Katie-bots doing this to, of course.

some good words appear to be- - which is how someone might type it in.
- Byron Katie scam?
- Byron Katie cult?
- Byron Katie weird?
- Byron Katie hypnosis
-Byron katie SHAM
-etc

For example, post to Factnet, to other skeptical forums...

BIG NAME BLOGS. If some big name blogs cover it, that's good. already there are a few links out there.

Google Blog Search, search for Byron Katie blogs here, and make some comments!!
[www.google.com]

Search Google and Google blogs, for Byron Katie and various keywords, and help people.
[www.google.com]

So I would say, the way to help more people, is more linking, more posting, more excerpts and cross-posting, etc. Over time it can really help people. They can sit at home and think about things.
For example, search for PSI SEMINARS. [www.google.com]


Isn't this about trying to get the word out, and get some education into the public about the dangerous effects of these programs?
There is not near ENOUGH linking and excerpt cross-posting going on about this subject in general. Nowhere near enough.

It is going to help the public much more if folks even just make 2 new links or excerpt cross-posts each day, to blogs, other chat-forums, anywhere. Hey, if 10 new links were made each day by a handful of people, word gets out. (groups like BK organize that stuff like crazy)

As a matter of fact, all the cross-posting and linking will help HUNDREDS of people for years to come. Even thousands of people. For years people will read it. Cross-posting fair-use excerpts for analysis is legal and moral. Its totally fine, and its very important.
I say the MORE cross-posting and linking, the better. this is not navel-gazing...its serious stuff, and it helps people.
Its about doing good things to help many people!

If a person makes maybe 3 links and excerpts, etc, each day, within a month its all over Google.

the person who doesn't know about all the LGAT and mind control can learn all about it!
This is why most LGATS and culty groups hate the internet.
Now they are trying to control it by having their own people make a zillion post and links.

So to help real people, learn from other people, go out and LINK all over the place.
It can help people, it can even possibly save a life going down the drain to one of these groups.
Education,Awareness and Knowledge is their enemy.
Ignorance is their friend.

So post, link, fair-use excerpt, and who knows, maybe some real folks will be helped out.

Thanks, Splash90 for reposting that advice on link-love from TAC. I'm in the same position, keen to do something to spread awareness of the resources here but not too sure how best to go about it.

I don't have much left to say about specific scammers, I find that too much immersion in the nasty machinations of these people has a bad effect on my own lingering PTSD---but I still want to contribute.

I am going to print out the piece you reposted and start to post, link, fair-use excerpt several times on a daily basis--if its good enough grunt work for Byron Katies minions it can't hurt for us to try countering that.
Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?

Thx Stoic - "The Devil Can't Write No Love Songs"!! :) (LOVE that Will Ferrell skit... gotta see it if u haven't. [vodpod.com]. It's on SNL's Best of WF.)

I had a flash of inspiration last night that I'm going to try on Wikipedia. I will repost the concern about the rape turnarounds, but only use the text from Loving What Is and an actual interview video as references. If it gets deleted again, then I'll know it wasn't because my references were invalid; they're coming STRAIGHT from the horse's mouth! I'll know someone's keeping really close tabs on that page to protect BK!

I don't think there are any non-blog/forum references for the School... We need an infiltrator to go in like Margaret Singer did with those LGATs and VIDEO RECORD the whole thing. (And of course NOT following the rules about giving up cell phones etc)

This post that I am replying to is over a year old. I don't know if anyone will even read this comment, but that's okay if no one does. I'll keep it short....

You talked about all the trick photography and PhotoShop tactics that are used to lighten Katie's eyes... Last fall, Katie worked with me through a stressful thought at a seminar. I looked into those eyes, personally. And her eyes are amazingly beautiful, stunning. Photoshop would not be needed in the least.

While there are some things that I do not agree with that Katie says or groups that she supports....I will say that I did not get the impression that she is a money-hungry, ego-satisfying con artist. Not at all. I believe that she truly wants to help people. No doubt in my mind. She knew suffering firsthand and she found a way to find peace from it, and she hasn't selfishly kept this knowledge to herself. She shares it with the world. Just knowing that my suffering comes from believing my thoughts, helps tremendously to release the grip the suffering holds on me at any given moment in time.

During a book signing time, I approached her at the signing table, all alone, no one else around, no press, no one watching...and i approached her to tell her of a specific and very difficult situation I was trying to deal with in my family, a situation not unfamiliar to Katie. She saw the anguish in my face and voice and was truly empathetic and caring and with a truly concerned and loving look in her face and eyes, she told me to write out my thoughts and then get in her face tomorrow at the seminar, so that she could work with me. She had hundreds of people at that seminar who wanted to work with her. Hundreds who would have LOVED the opportunity to work with her. But she felt my pain and wanted to help. She didn't say anything like..."well maybe we can get someone to talk with you tomorrow" or "it will work out" or anything like that. She truly cared, because she understood and she offered to help.

She does a lot. Her method works. Before I went to her seminar, I worked with someone on Skype in the UK, going through the questions with her, and I was able to reverse total despair and unbearable pain to peace in half an hour. The Work works in warp speed, without trying. If you have not experienced it, then you would be skeptical, for sure. But I have experienced the power of this method firsthand, and it is like 35 years of therapy in half an hour. Warp speed. Without trying. Just asking yourself the questions and do the turn arounds, and take it in and be still. The layers of suffering are shed effortlessly.

Perhaps those that criticize Katie have never known suffering in the extreme that i have, or that Katie has, or others. But I don't think it is fair to criticize something or someone that you really don't understand.

Katie does not ask to go to all the places she goes to. She is asked to come. People recognize the value of The Work and ask her to come. There is a difference. She helps people and that is why they love her. Plain and simple. No ulterior motives. Just peace and I am very thankful to have heard of The Work. It is not a cult nor does it have a hold on me or anyone else. It is brilliant in it's simplicity and effectiveness.

If you are ever at the very bottom, this is the way to get up again. So don't knock it; you might need it some day :)

To 'The Anticult':

Pretty much every work you wrote on this post is off base. Anyone can make a big deal about anything pretty easily, apparently!

The 'Dreaded List'??? It is not at all unusual when attending seminars or educational classes that rules are set and prohibitions are set in place for the few days in attendance. This is so that people will get the most out of what they came to hear/learn and will have the least amount of distractions.

You use heavy, charged words and phrases as you try to paint an ugly picture where none exists. Words like 'diabolical' and 'mind-washing system' and 'escape the Byron Katie system' and 'Byron Katie wants to totally isolate you during the mind-washing system'... Aren't your words a form of 'mind-washing' to project your beliefs?

Again...no one is forcing anyone to do The Work. People seek out this method of inquiry to find peace from the suffering that is caused by believing their thoughts. It's very simple. It is not brain washing or mind control. Really! Try to chill out a bit!

Quote
lauren
To 'The Anticult':

Pretty much every work you wrote on this post is off base. Anyone can make a big deal about anything pretty easily, apparently!

The 'Dreaded List'??? It is not at all unusual when attending seminars or educational classes that rules are set and prohibitions are set in place for the few days in attendance. This is so that people will get the most out of what they came to hear/learn and will have the least amount of distractions.

You use heavy, charged words and phrases as you try to paint an ugly picture where none exists. Words like 'diabolical' and 'mind-washing system' and 'escape the Byron Katie system' and 'Byron Katie wants to totally isolate you during the mind-washing system'... Aren't your words a form of 'mind-washing' to project your beliefs?

Again...no one is forcing anyone to do The Work. People seek out this method of inquiry to find peace from the suffering that is caused by believing their thoughts. It's very simple. It is not brain washing or mind control. Really! Try to chill out a bit!

Hi lauren,

I wouldn't say for sure that everything BK does (like her book and public interviews) uses mind control techniques. But her School for the Work absolutely does--if what people have said about what goes on there is true.

Have you read about or studied what people are specifically referring to when they use the terms "mind control," "thought reform," or "brainwashing"? If not, you should do so before you decide that BK is not using them. Here are some links to get you started.

[www.ex-cult.org]
[www.freedomofmind.com]
[www.reveal.org]
[www.howcultswork.com]

______________________________________

Spiritual Recovery Resources: [forums.delphiforums.com]

Quote
lauren
This post that I am replying to is over a year old. I don't know if anyone will even read this comment, but that's okay if no one does. I'll keep it short....

You talked about all the trick photography and PhotoShop tactics that are used to lighten Katie's eyes... Last fall, Katie worked with me through a stressful thought at a seminar. I looked into those eyes, personally. And her eyes are amazingly beautiful, stunning. Photoshop would not be needed in the least.

While there are some things that I do not agree with that Katie says or groups that she supports....I will say that I did not get the impression that she is a money-hungry, ego-satisfying con artist. Not at all. I believe that she truly wants to help people. No doubt in my mind. She knew suffering firsthand and she found a way to find peace from it, and she hasn't selfishly kept this knowledge to herself. She shares it with the world. Just knowing that my suffering comes from believing my thoughts, helps tremendously to release the grip the suffering holds on me at any given moment in time.

During a book signing time, I approached her at the signing table, all alone, no one else around, no press, no one watching...and i approached her to tell her of a specific and very difficult situation I was trying to deal with in my family, a situation not unfamiliar to Katie. She saw the anguish in my face and voice and was truly empathetic and caring and with a truly concerned and loving look in her face and eyes, she told me to write out my thoughts and then get in her face tomorrow at the seminar, so that she could work with me. She had hundreds of people at that seminar who wanted to work with her. Hundreds who would have LOVED the opportunity to work with her. But she felt my pain and wanted to help. She didn't say anything like..."well maybe we can get someone to talk with you tomorrow" or "it will work out" or anything like that. She truly cared, because she understood and she offered to help.

She does a lot. Her method works. Before I went to her seminar, I worked with someone on Skype in the UK, going through the questions with her, and I was able to reverse total despair and unbearable pain to peace in half an hour. The Work works in warp speed, without trying. If you have not experienced it, then you would be skeptical, for sure. But I have experienced the power of this method firsthand, and it is like 35 years of therapy in half an hour. Warp speed. Without trying. Just asking yourself the questions and do the turn arounds, and take it in and be still. The layers of suffering are shed effortlessly.

Perhaps those that criticize Katie have never known suffering in the extreme that i have, or that Katie has, or others. But I don't think it is fair to criticize something or someone that you really don't understand.

Katie does not ask to go to all the places she goes to. She is asked to come. People recognize the value of The Work and ask her to come. There is a difference. She helps people and that is why they love her. Plain and simple. No ulterior motives. Just peace and I am very thankful to have heard of The Work. It is not a cult nor does it have a hold on me or anyone else. It is brilliant in it's simplicity and effectiveness.

If you are ever at the very bottom, this is the way to get up again. So don't knock it; you might need it some day :)

Here are the main problems I personally have with the Work.

The first is that many of the conclusions people come to through doing the Work are false. Byron Katie gets around this by saying that there is no objective reality so really you can create your own and believe whatever you want. And of course she can say this because we really DON'T know for sure and will never know for sure if anything is 'real.' But I believe there is an objective reality which we can rely on, and in which we must operate in order to lead healthy lives. In addition, I don't believe it is wrong or 'bad' to feel sad, or angry, or any of the negative things that she seeks to 'cure.' It is a normal part of life. I don't believe it is healthy to live in a constant 'blissed out' state of willful ignorance of many elements of existence. And I say this as someone who has gone through trauma in my own life and the resulting PTSD. Our responses to bad things that happen are normal and an integral part of the healing process.

The second and biggest problem I have with it, is that it often leads people to a conclusion which actually does them psychological harm although they may not even realize it at the time. That is the biggest problem I have with her entire teaching. I have watched and read in absolute HORROR some of the turnarounds she has done with people who were victims of trauma of some kind. She is being completely irresponsible with these people's minds, hearts and souls. I felt like I was witnessing a mind-rape because of how she (or her teachings) violated them in their vulnerable state.

The last problem I have with it is that she does use mind control techniques, at least in her School. Anyone who is willing to use unethical coercive methods to get people to follow them, regardless of their intentions, is someone who should be avoided at all costs. And Byron Katie does. She may have the best of intentions; no one can truly know what is in her heart, or anyone's. I think that the leader of the group I was in for 15 years does truly believe in the nobility and rightness of what he is doing and that he really believes he is 'saving people's souls.' But the results of his actions have been widespread heartache and loss, lives torn apart, and deep psychological trauma. The Germans believed fervently that Hitler did all he did out of a deep love for his people and wanting to help them; only later was all the evil uncovered that he did. And he may have truly believed that even that evil was for the 'greater good' and therefore was able to convince others of it (and yes mind control was used on Nazi soldiers, just as it is on Islamists today). I am in no way saying BK is doing the evil that Hitler did. I am only pointing out the 'for the greater good' mindset of those who use mind control. The degree of damage may vary widely, but there is damage.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2010 11:42PM by Splash90.

Lauren,
Just because her eyes were really pretty in person and she was super nice to you doesn't erase or minimize the damage she's done to other people.