Baxter-man speak with forked tongue. Him say he not endorse Katie, while telling people to try out and see if fits. Hmm. Him say "looks" like something of interest for members. Him repeat what Katie does. Him say, "Just try it out."
Him not to be trusted, Kemosabe. (I just LOVED Tonto, in those old Lone Ranger episodes, didn't you?)

qd

Suit yourself, quack. I think the implicit warning in the disclaimer is pretty clear, especially if you're familiar with my other posts on that forum - it's rare that I feel the need to post a disclaimer at all, so it stands out in a post like that one.

Dr. David Baxter
Psychlinks Psychology Self-Help and Mental health Support Forum

Unfortunately, the comment above by David Baxter is quite disingenuous.

What he posted is clearly a professional endorsement and a promotion of the Byron Katie International BKI business.
It is even exclusively featured in the REVIEWS section of his website.
[forum.psychlinks.ca]
[Psychlinks Reviews Reviews of web sites, forums, blogs, and books related to psychology, psychiatry, psychotherapy, health, and mental health.]

The Work of Byron Katie
David Baxter
Published by David Baxter
September 3rd, 2007
[forum.psychlinks.ca]

David Baxter has posted a huge section of literally the entire Byron Katie "story" that is "adapted" from the Byron Katie website. Does that mean he rewrote the advertising story from the Byron Katie website, and reposted it? Or did he just cut and paste it? Did he get permission from BKI to do so?

It has numerous direct hotlinks to the Byron Katie website, and to her book excerpts. The Byron Katie webpages being linked to are highly manipulative and persuasive, and are carefully designed to lure vulnerable and depressed people into the Byron Katie system and business model.

Why are there no direct hotlinks to questions and criticisms of Byron Katie, and only her advertising webpages?

He actually says about Byron Katie... QUOTE: "While not strictly speaking a therapist"

...are you kidding?
Byron Katie has absolutely no training and no licensing whatsoever, and is not doing any type of valid group therapy, and certainly not cognitive therapy, as has been shown in great detail.

He also says...QUOTE: "Like other Western therapists, Katie merges this with concepts and tools borrowed from..."
That is a strangely worded sentence...like other therapists? "Katie" is not a therapist.
Byron Katie uses tools and concepts from therapy?
Does he have any idea of what he is saying? Is he aware that Byron Katie says she is an ENLIGHTENED SPIRIT BEING who magically attained enlightenment and has never read a book? How could she have borrowed anything? Saying Byron Katie borrowed techniques from "therapy" is saying she and her hubby are liars, as they have denied it countless times. She claims she learned it all magically in the cockroach motel.

David Baxter should do some proper research, before he starts promoting very sophisticated and dangerous New Age enlightenment salespeople like Byron Katie.

There have been 1,437 views of that thread, which means Dr. David Baxter could have referred almost 1,500 people seeking mental health advice to the Byron Katie International corporation website, which is an extremely manipulative website. [forum.psychlinks.ca]

Has David Baxter read the first hand REPORTS about Byron Katie's LGAT seminar?

Byron Katie and "The Work" Participant Reports [forum.culteducation.com]

Byron Katie & Janaki [janakisstory.wordpress.com]

Is he going to also link to those first hand reports, so people are warned about the dangers of those Byron Katie seminars?

Does Dr. David Baxter want to use his credibility as a psychologist, to link to someone who is totally unlicensed, unregistered, and doing damaging and dangerous 9-Day LGAT seminars?

These threads explain in great detail how the web of advanced persuasion is used by Byron Katie, using the internet, and those very webpages he links to. Those webpages being linked to, could lure a desperate/depressed person into buying books and watching videos, which then powerfully upsell to the live LGAT seminars costing thousands of dollars, and to the very dangerous activities taking place.

Does he know about people handing over their wedding rings?

Its very true that some psychologists can be painfully naive about how the real world of American New Wage hucksters operate. A psychologist should not be recommending and making numerous links on his webpage to unlicensed and unproven, and damaging New Agey materials, that have already hurt many people.

And certainly, its a cop-out to say they only glanced at the material, and then recommend it, with a tiny disclaimer? Clearly, that is just promoting the material, while trying to cover one's own behind.
A professional should do careful research before they recommend anything.
If not, they are doing exactly what the Byron Katie system wants them to do, which is to just "try it", and that is the fish biting into the hook, and they can get reeled in. No the fish should not TRY biting into the worm on the hook, unless she wants to end up as lunch.

Just because someone is a psychologist, or an MD, or has any other title, does not mean they necessarily know what they are doing in these areas. Most psychologists unfortunately know almost nothing about advanced persuasion techniques, like the ones used by Byron Katie.
They should educate themselves on how the real world works out there.

He did not post one single word about how Byron Katie uses her advanced "Stories" and a perversion of Ericksonian hynotherapy to persuade people without their conscious awareness.

Those links promoting Byron Katie and Byron Katie International should at minimum include links to sites that expose what is going on at her 9 Day LGAT seminars.
The links promoting Katie should be deleted.

At least 4 people died and many others were seriously injured last year, while attending James Arthur Ray's LGAT seminars, which use many of the same dangerous techniques as Byron Katie. [forum.culteducation.com]
Colleen Conaway died at the James Ray seminar while doing a "homeless person" exercise during the seminar, and Byron Katie uses that exact same exercise and technique in her LGAT seminar called The School For The Work, as well as the sleep-deprivation, fasting, peer pressure, and about 100 other techniques all at once.


Potentially vulnerable patients seeking mental health advice should not be thrown to the unlicensed wolves in sheeps clothing.

That is quite an insulting comment to the poster "quackdave".
Have you read the detailed posts here by "quackdave" on his direct personal experiences with the damaging Byron Katie thought reform system? No of course not.

Have your read the hundreds of posts here and elsewhere by many many people who have been psychologically injured and financially exploited by the Byron Katie system? No of course not.

If a psychologist with new agey interests wants to promote Byron Katie's massive internet business model, and thus the Byron Katie International corporation, and the Byron Katie The Work Foundation Inc, EIN 87-0559189 [forum.culteducation.com] which is a "church" registered for tax-free status in the US
...then they should do so openly.

They should NOT post the entire Byron Katie marketing "Story" on their website with many direct hotlinks, while using weasel words and try to cover their own behind, while alluding with tricky sentences that The Work is related to CBT. That is patently false, and has been proven in this thread repeatedly.

Time will tell if there is more to this "story".

Quote
Djbaxter
Suit yourself, quack. I think the implicit warning in the disclaimer is pretty clear, especially if you're familiar with my other posts on that forum - it's rare that I feel the need to post a disclaimer at all, so it stands out in a post like that one.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2010 02:01AM by The Anticult.

The website of David Baxter has moved the post promoting the business of Byron Katie. (it is promotion, as it just reproduces the Byron Katie International marketing material).

It was moved from the REVIEWS section to the THERAPIST section.
_________________________
Psychlinks Psychology Self-Help & Mental Health Support Forum > General Psychology & Psychiatry > Therapy & Therapists
The Work of Byron Katie [forum.psychlinks.ca]
Therapy & Therapists Discussions about therapists, theorists, and types of therapy or approaches to therapy, and mandated or court-ordered preventative treatment.
_______________________

Is David Baxter now saying that Byron Katie is doing "therapy"? She is listed under Therapists/Therapy.
Is he aware that Byron Katie says she is not doing "therapy" to avoid all regulation and licensing?
Is he aware that Byron Katie has no training whatsoever?
Unlike a psychologist who has oversight and regulation, Byron Katie is running wild in the wild wild west of the New Wage, where there is literally no regulation at all.

Why would he make a post promoting Byron Katie, that has about 6 direct hotlinks to the Byron Katie deceptive advertising webpages?

Is he aware that the marketing Story put out by Byron Katie has been rewritten many times over the years, is largely fabricated, and has been proven as such by those who were there and others who have researched it?
Its a marketing Story, meant to lure people into the Byron Katie system.
Technically, its a steaming load of BS.

He even has the stones to post about "Katie's Experience: Waking Up to Reality".
That story is just fabricated self-mythology for self-marketing.

Some psychologists are very naive about professional persuaders and Enlightenment Salespeople. They project their own "good intentions" on these persuaders, who are not like them at all.
For example, Byron Katie is a ruthless international entrepreneur, and "The Work" is really just a front for her complex persuasion system, as has been explained in great detail. It can take over a person's entire life. People are handing over their wedding rings and valuables at the LGAT seminars.

Perhaps David Baxter should WAKE UP TO REALITY, and take a look at what is really going on. There is a huge disconnect between the BKI marketing and what really is happening.
Its hard to believe a psychologist would knowingly direct vulnerable people into such a dangerous and exploitative system.

So why do it?
If David Baxter supports Byron Katie, and thinks she is wonderful, then why not just admit it openly? If he attended a Byron Katie seminar, then that should be clarified.

Or perhaps a patient was into Byron Katie, and brought it up. If so, a psychologist should do some serious research before they start suggesting dangerous systems like Byron Katie's which TARGET people who are depressed and desperate.
Those are the TARGETS of the Byron Katie marketing.

David Baxter is listed as being in the town Ottawa.
There is a lot of Byron Katie activity in Ottawa. Search for:
- "Byron Katie" ottawa

Was the Byron Katie post intended to come up in the search listings for the town Ottawa, in case there are those looking for a psychologist who supports The Work in that town?
Was it also self-marketing?

But regardless, to re-post all of the Byron Katie marketing material, with direct hotlinks to the deceptive Byron Katie websites, targeted at people seeking mental health therapy, that is not right.

Where are the links to the warnings about Byron Katie all over the internet?
Its another lesson that even some psychologists can give really bad and even dangerous advice to those seeking treatment.

But even untrained people know that one should NEVER refer people seeking therapy to UNLICENSED and UNTRAINED entrepreneurs like Byron Katie, who are running dangerous seminars.
So why is David Baxter doing it? That can't be about being naive.

Psychologists should be the people researching and speaking out against unlicensed Quackery, being sold for massive amounts of money.

Is it about a psychologist with new agey leanings, wanting to expand the practice into also offering The Work by Byron Katie, but done somewhat unofficially?
Hoping that The Work will become a new trend that brings in new clients?
(like EMDR was) [www.skepdic.com]

As of yet that is not known. But endorsing people like Byron Katie with ZERO credentials, and no regulation and no licensing, is very harmful and dangerous, especially to vulnerable people seeking mental health treatment.

And to try and link The Work with CBT is part of the Byron Katie International marketing strategy, which has been tried by a few others.
The reality is that The Work is the opposite to CBT, its a directional trap, that leads people into serious cognitive distortions, self-blame, and polarized thinking.

Byron Katie (the Work) is the opposite of Cognitive Therapy [forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2010 05:41AM by The Anticult.

There are some comments about how when people stop doing the BK system of manipulation, they can get depressed.
They can even think at times that since the BK manipulation system doesn't work as advertised, that means humans can't manage their thoughts and feelings.

That is a very serious mistake to make.
Its understandable why someone would think that due to the mountain of misinformation they have been fed by Byron Katie, but its not correct, and its not accurate.

Even the basic superficial level of Byron Katie's "system" has never been tested in any proper way, and Byron Katie has no training, education or knowledge of any type of therapy or psychology that can actually help people.
This is the essence of what has been said in these threads all along.
The BK work, as advertised, is not what it is presented to be.
Its meant as a system of manipulation and control, a very subtle, complex, and comprehensive system, that can be extremely powerful.

Why do some people get a little bit of relief at the beginning?
According to some of the most researched cognitive theories, when people are getting obsessively involved in any type of process (like the so-called questions of the BK work), they getting at minimum a temporary cognitive DISTRACTION, and later a gross distortion of the human thinking process.
If everytime a person had a painful emotion, they did some compulsive behavior, they also might get some temporary relief through that distraction.
(like that "tapping" some new agey people sell, or any type of compulsive behavior to try and distract themselves from emotional pain, like compulsive SGI chanting, obsessive praying, rituals...).
So in that sense, just obsessively doing the so-called "work" marketed by Byron Katie, might give some temporary distraction from painful emotions. But as soon as one stops the distraction, then nothing has changed.

But the BK system is not just distraction, it also is a LEADING system, and a self-blaming system, which is going to make people more depressed than before. Its a very dangerous process.
But just because the Byron Katie so-called work, doesn't work, one shouldn't assume that nothing works.
Its very important to distuingish between the high-level complex manipulation being sold by Byron Katie, and actual science based psychology that helps people.

For example, real CBT has had hundreds of actual studies, testing its methods extremely carefully, and measuring the results. There is information at this website. www.beckinstitute.org/
The irony is that real CBT is actually about managing one's own thought, feelings, and behaviors, and also beliefs.
But it has nothing to do with the distorted processes being sold by various New Wage hucksters.
The science behind CBT has shown that most people can actually learn to manage their own thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, and reduce depression and anxiety, and get many benefits. There have been many controlled scientific studies to verify those results, done by real mental health professionals, who are trained and licensed, and who know what they are doing.

That is why is so absurd to see a person trying to link their untested New Wage system they are selling to CBT. They are just trying to gain some credibility by association.
So just because various New Wage systems turn out to be shams and scams, doesn't mean that nothing helps people.

There are real psychological professionals out there, who are licensed, trained, and ethical, and responsible.
As far as the philosophy of it, its somewhat the same thing. New Wage pseudo-philosophers sell junky ideas that can harm people. But there is plenty of real research into important issues like Free Will, and all of the questions of philosophy.
Obviously complex areas.

But there are real pro's out there who can help people, at a reasonable cost.
And the same rigorous criteria of critical thinking has to be applied to those psychological pro's as well, as not everyone with a license always knows what they are doing.

Janaki (former BK facilitator) has posted an update on her blog about the fall-out from her split with BK.
She describes the depression she suffered after ceasing to do the 'Work' and how she came back to a more normal view on the world. Her commenters have interesting observations to make also.

Janaki blog update

Take heart, there is life after Byron Katie.

I came here to post a link re the update on Janaki's blog, but I see Stoic has gotten to it already. Thanks.

Yes, there is life after Byron Katie. The thing is, if one becomes immersed in Byron Katie's world to the degree that someone like Janaki does and then leaves, there can be quite a price to pay. For example, Janaki spoke in her latest blog about possibly having to go bankrupt. That's some pretty big stuff to deal with there.

Janaki sure sounded sane to me in her blog, despite all she's been through. I wish her well as she continues to grapple with life post-BK.

The harsh reality is that many many senior "facilitators" or franchisees with many of these LGAT groups end up bankrupt. Literally. That is a fact.
Anyone who has been in that business, sees person after person pushed into bankruptcy after dealing with the Guru for a number of years.
Going to the edge of bankruptcy, and into bankruptcy, that is not uncommon in these seminar groups. Its very common, and the LGAT Guru's of course have full knowledge of that.

If you look at the James Arthur Ray situation, he literally persuaded and drove Colleen Conaway one-step away from bankruptcy, by using his powerful persuasion techniques to get her to load up 10's of thousands of dollars on her credit cards. [forum.culteducation.com] Sadly, she died during one of the James Ray seminars, but was outrageously even charged for James Ray seminars after her death, and that happened to other victims of James Ray as well.
And James Ray is not the only one, many others do the same things.

SGI Soka Gakkai [forum.culteducation.com] persuades desperate people to empty their emergency savings accounts, to give all their money to the billionaire Guru of SGI, in hopes for a miracle healing and a new car by magic.

Byron Katie also has specific methods where she gets people who cannot afford her LGAT seminars, to put them on their credit cards to try to pay them off over a period of years, as has been explained in this thread. Its a trap, people get "coached" into a trap that is going to last for years and years.


So the technique of pushing followers into bankruptcy, is literally business as usual for these LGAT's.
For example, LGAT guru's are able to get those the deepest involved in their system, to come to more advanced private seminars run by the Guru. There they are able to literally "coach" (persuade) the person into getting the maximum line of credit they can access, or remortgaging their home, and then using it all up to buy the guru's products.
They literally do that AT the seminar, right on the spot, they have it all set up. They get people to get the maximum credit, they coach them on what to say to the bank, and then get them to max it out on the spot to buy some expensive product they are selling.
They all have products that can go higher than $150,000, for example some inflated coaching contract, or reselling the Guru's materials as a franchisee.

Tony Robbins got in trouble with that from the FTC years ago, and was forced to pay back money. [www.ftc.gov] [ANTHONY ROBBINS AGREES TO PAY MORE THAN $220,000 IN CONSUMER REDRESS TO SETTLE ALLEGED FRANCHISE RULE VIOLATIONS]
They are able to hype people up, and get them to agree to some ridiculous contract, where the person loses all their money. Of course since then, they have gotten smarter, to work around the loopholes.

But here the reality.
Many people get deeply involved with these LGAT's. Once they get deeply involved, the Guru and the Guru's senior salespeople are able to work them into a manic frenzy, and get them to spend literally every dollar they have, and every dollar they can borrow. They are professionals, and know how to do this.
Eventually, it all comes crashing down.
Person after person ends up losing their home, and all of their savings. At the end of their 10+ years with the Guru, what do they have?
Very often they have a bankruptcy. It happens all the time.

So its not an exception, for most long-term members of aggressive LGAT groups like Byron Katie, or these other sects, the long-term members literally end up with nothing.

Now of course there is always hope for a new beginning, and sometimes bankruptcy can be the thing that saves these folks, and at least allows a fresh start in life.

But please, one hopes people don't slip from one Guru, to the next anti-Guru. Don't know much about Tony Parson's yet, but its worrisome when you see a Guru's name coming up again and again.
Former LGAT Guru followers might consider a radical experiement...no Guru's for 5 years!
Its very freeing to learn to trust one's own thinking, and not need the advice and seminars of any professional Guru's. Its wonderfully freeing to swear off all professional Guru's for 5 years, just to break the cycle.

But sadly, the situation where the longterm member of an LGAT seminar group or sect ending up with nothing but a huge debt, is very very common, almost universal.
And for those who had a large family inheritance, it can be worse. Many people get cleaned out.

Its a very hard lesson in the school of hard knocks to get cleaned out by an LGAT Guru's system. Some people get very angry, and then start their own LGAT system, to get even, and the cycle continues.
Others blame themselves, when they shouldn't. They got scammed, and it is not totally their fault, as they were dealing with a professional.
The worst case, is those who get so overcome with extreme self-blame, they attempt suicide out of hopelessness and desperation.

Hopefully one day, some serious journalists will do some research into the trail of bankruptices left in the wake of LGAT Guru's, that is the rule.
The LGAT Guru's know that they have to target people who are vulnerable, and then persuade them to spend every dollar they can borrow. Those are the easiest targets, and that is why they go after them.

LGAT Guru's don't target Bill Gates or a entrepreneurs who have done really well, as those folks are too clever and tight-fisted! They SAY that is who are their customers, as that sounds good, but in fact most of the LGAT customers are in debt to their eyeballs and desperate.
The LGATGuru's target those who are easy to persuade and convince to blow everything, and to spend everything they don't have.

That is not speculation, that is their business model, and that is how it works. The internal data of the LGAT guru shows that as a fact, as they always get the financial details from those who are taking the seminars. They know most of their customers who spend the most money, are those who are on the edge of bankruptcy. Those are the folks who are desperate, and who are willing to bet the farm on wishful thinking.

And when it comes crashing down, those Stories don't make it into the brochure. And most of the victims are too ashamed of what happened, blame themselves, and vanish.
Until you see it with your own eyes time and time again, its hard to believe that is the reality.
But that is the reality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2010 06:55AM by The Anticult.