Welcome, swampseer.

I dont have any special status here on the message board. But I can offer some orientation advice.

A) If anyone you do not know sends you any PMs (private messages) that make you feel shame ridden, guilt ridden, zoned out, or weirded out, pass a copy of that PM on to Rick Ross. The PM area is private, hidden from public view and must be kept clean so that no one can be bullied in private via the PM function.

B) If anyone ever asks you a direct question, either here on the message board, or by PM, you are under no obligation to respond to that question, especially if the tone seems impolite, demanding, or gives you a wierd vibe.

C) Be discreet about giving personal information. In aggregate, our posts can reveal a lot about us, unless we are careful.

What is sad and familiar about the James Ray Death Lodge [forum.culteducation.com] is the fact that family members speaking out about those who died, are saying they were the sweetest and kindest people they knew.
This is because these seminars target and exploit people who are inexperienced and more than a bit naive about these types of LGAT seminars, and don't consider that there are Guru's who will lie and manipulate them, to extract their $10,000 for the weekend, to make their millions.

People who are critical thinkers and read threads like this, are not going to "fast" for 3 days without food or water because the Guru tells them to, as they know that "fasting" used in these LGAT seminars is LITERALLY a well-known brainwashing technique.
(especially since the Guru always sneaks food/water for themselves at these events to "keep up their strength").
Crticial thinkers also know that not drinking water for days can be lethal, and you can damage your internal organs for life.
Critical thinkers would not go into a plastic covered, over-heated, suffocation tent with some greedy Guru, promising an "out of body experience". That is also a brainwashing technique, a very dangerous one.

But unfortunately, its the people who are "too nice" and too trusting towards the Gurus, due to their lack of experience in studying how these LGAT seminars work, they are the one's who pay the price, in health damage, financial damage, and even with their life.

The Guru's are not naive or stupid.
They are "smart" enough not to answer police questions on the scene, as they know police are trained to gather evidence.
The Guru's force their followers to sign massive waivers, which detail how they are going to be hurt, abused, and even die. And they even say if the Guru or their volunteers/staff screws up, ITS YOUR FAULT.

James Ray International Waiver [forum.culteducation.com]


Already, James Ray's spokesman, is trying to blame the retreat for the sweatdome.
There have even been posts trying to blame the nurse.
The Guru is reported in the news, to have NOT answered the questions from the police, when everyone else on the scene cooperated.

Its the same pattern as seen the the Guru's disclaimers and their behavior.
Blame the victim.

On top of this, people get hurt, people die, and they say they are "shocked".
How can they be shocked, when they have specific "DEATH CLAUSES" and serious injury clauses in the waiver they FORCE everyone to sign before they attend the seminar?
Because they know in the past people have gotten hurt, people end up in emergency wards, and they hear about the suicides, and other serious problems.

So they are not "shocked" when people get hurt, or even when people die as a result of the extreme stress of these "seminars". They know extreme stress can trigger severe reactions in people, and some people go over the edge.
But usually, people don't die right in the seminar. When they start freaking out, these LGAT seminars just either kick them out of the seminar, or dump them at the Emergency ward, at best. Usually, they kick them out of the seminar when they see them starting to go over the edge.

Its just the cost of doing business for them, its collateral damage.

You can even see some of their supporters on blogs, making comments like..."hey people die everyday"...they really don't care.
Those who have a mental breakdown from the extreme stress, they BLAME them for being weak.

The patterns with these LGAT seminar Guru's are virtually identical.

I'm even more thankful today, in light of the James Ray news, for the instincts that preserved a remnant of my ability to think critically at the LGAT I attended. I didn't heed the warnings not to go, although I had read some information right here just beforehand and knew enough to be wary. That wariness kicked in hard at registration (things didn't read right or feel right), and from the first, I just never could buy into the training. Thank goodness. I bought the philosophy I had read of that led me to enroll, but the reality of the training smacked of something all wrong. I quickly became more onlooker, outsider, and...ultimately...reporter, than participant. Still, it was so easy to see how those who were participating wholeheartedly might have arrived at their experience...who doesn't want to believe there's some secret that will ease the pain of being human?

There were some lovely people there, good and dedicated people who believed they were on the right track, who hoped there WAS a right track...some of the best of us humans. From time to time, throughout the experience, I cursed my own skeptical tendencies and the comparative hardness of my heart for not letting me be like them. Of course, the part of me that was hardhearted was also hardheaded...and, in retrospect and in the light of the "Spiritual Warrior" story, it saved me and I'm grateful. It might appear that I was gifted with innate good sense, but for the undeniable fact that I'm not, and can't even aspire to it. I was lucky. There's little defense against the truly predatory. I don't believe anyone should blame themselves for being duped; they must simply bear witness, if they live to tell the tale.

Swampseer wrote:

Quote

From time to time, throughout the experience, I cursed my own skeptical tendencies and the comparative hardness of my heart for not letting me be like them. Of course, the part of me that was hardhearted was also hardheaded...and, in retrospect and in the light of the "Spiritual Warrior" story, it saved me and I'm grateful.

Swampseer, you are not the only one who has found him or herself sitting alone in a room, wondering why you're the only one (seemingly!) not going with the flow.

A correspondant named GEB posted here after attending a quite different event:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

It's like all of a sudden there's some 1800's type of social stigma against talking about cults. It's been scary experience for me, to tell you the truth, I just needed to vent to keep my sanity.

In the post following GEB's, I quoted an item from somone who had attended yet another such group

Quote

That's what RR.com is here for.

Someone named 'Hartley' describes how he or she felt in a situation involving a different leader. This conveys the bewilderment.

"If I had not actually witnessed this scene, I don't think I would have believed that it was possible to create this level of thought distortion in the human mind. There was such a terrible loneliness about it too. I kept wondering: why is this not "taking" in my mind? Why is this working on everyone else? It almost felt like my brain had to be structurally different from all those other people who were sitting there listening to the very same words and drawing such profoundly different conclusions."

What we are all pondering is not merely a charimsatic leader in action, but a charismatic leader who is empowered by something a sociologist has termed
'cultic milieu'--the New Wage social environment in which we are subltly socialized to
buy into believing there is a person or Secret that will solve all our woes and no matter whether we have doubts--dont spoil the mood.

Even worse, not only was there no building permit, the structure where people died was not inspected AFTER the deaths, according to the article below.

So the New Wage LGAT seminar, can even kill people at the seminar, and nothing is done about it?
Even if people die right at the seminar, then no one goes to jail?

What about regulating the LGAT seminar for psychological damage which wrecks lives?
Or leads to suicides and hosipitalization?
They won't even regulate them for deaths, and appear to have not inspected the structure which killed people?

And the LGAT gurus continue to live in their 4 million dollar homes made from LGAT seminar profits.
That is reality.
If no one goes to jail after people actually dying while attending an LGAT seminar, then all bets are off.
That would prove the LGAT seminar Guru can do anything they want at their "seminar", including causing people's deaths indirectly or directly, and get away with it.

This will be a terrible case study in reality, to watch very closely.
If no one goes to jail even after people actually die at an LGAT seminar, that will prove that the LGAT guru's can literally do anything they want to people, and get away with it, and continue to make their millions.
That is the harsh reality.


[www.azcentral.com]#
"Yavapai County building-safety manager Jack Judd said there was no record of an application or permit for a temporary structure at the Angel Valley Retreat Center near Sedona.
Judd said no inspection of the structure was conducted before it was dismantled."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2009 07:11AM by The Anticult.

swampseer:

Your insight and analysis is very valuable and can help a lot of people. Even just having a rough idea of what goes on in these seminars can help people. This is why the LGAT Guru's are so hysterical about analysis of their methods of persuasion.
They know that just being AWARE of the techniques, can ruin most of them. This is why they try to push people away from any knowledge of what is going on.
So just knowing a little, can be enough to save someone from going down the rabbit hole.

On a postive note, after studying and learning for months and years about this types of techniques, then one becomes pretty hard to dupe. You see what they are doing in minutes, or seconds, and the game is over. No sale.
Its also helpful for the assertive, to stand up and point out their techniques on the mic at the LGAT seminar, like false Scarcity marketing, and the misuse of language, Social influence, and everything else they are doing.
But be ready for an angry backlash from the Guru, and worse, their "volunteer" followers.

But speaking out saves people. Those who have been down their own rabbit hole in the past, can help others by explaining EXACTLY what goes on in the seminar.


Unfortunately, even though Guruphiliac [guruphiliac.blogspot.com] is posting about James Ray, they seem to imply a type of suicide?

QUOTE: [guruphiliac.blogspot.com] "That's an expensive way to go, especially when most bridges are free to jump from."

Any type of victim blaming, displays an ignorance of the INCREDIBLY advanced techniques being used on people by Guru's these days, and the fact that LGAT seminar leaders TARGET idealistic "too trusting spiritual people" who are inexperienced in these areas, and who don't read releases of liability.
They VERY CAREFULLY target those people as customers.
To simply attack the victims, is pathetic, and some blog comments have said horrible things about those who were hurt.

The advanced Guru knows how to get their "advanced students" to do crazy things. The question is, HOW DO THEY DO THIS? What are the techniques being used on people?

A better response is to point out the EXACT TECHNIQUES and methods being used by the guru on their target demographic.
Those seminar attendees don't know anything about these seminars. Ask people at an LGAT seminar, if they have ever heard of that term, and what it means. They don't know how it works, or anything about it.
They just take it at face value.


James Ray was exposed in these threads almost 3 years ago in 2007.

[forum.culteducation.com]
James Ray: who is a new Werner Erhard type, very slick and sleazy, and who is a Tony Robbins clone, repeating Robbins exact words verbatim, over and over.
He said there is World Peace in HIS world, because he ignores the world.
Oprah just crowned this sleazy salesman James Ray the new Werner Erhard. There were some horrible complaints about this guy on the Oprah boards, people getting ripped off 10K, and lots of people burning their feet in his "fire-walk" and not being allowed to go to the hospital. This guy is very bad.

"The Science Of Success" by James Arthur Ray. James Ray, the greasy salesman pitchman guy from The Secret. [forum.culteducation.com]

I remember this guy. A friend loaned me a DVD of "The Secret" shortly after it was made available, asking me what I thought of it. I was in a fairly credulous phase and tried to watch it respectfully. Even so, this guy reminded me of a used car salesman. My impression was that there was something bad at work. There have been lots of televangelists who were more convincing than Ray...lots of used car salesmen, too. You nailed him with the "greasy" adjective. The ideas aren't new, either; some of those same televangelists have been promising wealth and prosperity to true believers for many decades and whole "religions" have been founded this way (most are identified as cults in the literature on world religions). There is not enough difference to measure between the kind of prayer they prescribe and the thought-shaping ideas offered by "The Secret."

I'm struck by the juxtaposition of the recent popularity of cultish events and the weirdness Dan Brown describes in his most recent book....noetics, I believe, is the name used....the creation of reality by thought. In fact, I'm about sick of weirdness these days. Global financial and social stress brings all the crazies out of the closet...and our desperate longings with them. I'm curious as to whether historical cycles of bust (versus boom) lend themselves particularly to gullibility and a field day for cult leaders. Bound to be so. Rasputin, anyone?

Another death is being reported at a James Ray LGAT seminar in a comment from the CBS news website.

Notice the "field trips", sleep deprivation, food deprivation, breaking down people psychologically, acting "homeless", and other precise techniques also used at the Byron Katie LGAT seminars.

Byron Katie and "The Work" Participant Reports [forum.culteducation.com]

Contrary to what one person said, the seminar leaders do know EXACTLY what they are doing with these techniques, and the serious risks.
Those are all well-known LGAT seminar "brainwashing" techniques, used to gain powerful influence over people. Those techniques are extremely dangerous, and some people "go over the edge", or jump over the edge.
This is why they have the "death clause" for the seminar, because people die after the seminar, or even during the seminar.
To the LGAT guru, its just collateral damage and the cost of doing business, and making the millions.


________________QUOTE___________________________
[www.cbsnews.com]
by parkrapidsmn October 12, 2009 8:39 PM EDT

"This is not the first time someone has died at a James Arthur Ray seminar.

On July 26 of this year Colleen died during a James Arthur Ray Creating Absolute Wealth Seminar in San Diego. She had been emotionally broken down, starved and kept awake ungodly amounts of time. During a group "field trip" to Horton Plaza Mall she plunged to the floor from a third level railing.

Colleen was a happy and succcessful woman. Prior to her death she had absolutely never given any of her friends and co-workers any signs of suicidal thoughts/intentions. She was making future plans...had a positive outlook on life...and was completely healthy.

Colleen was brainwashed. She fell victim to Large Group Awareness Training. I believe James Arthur Ray and his company completely covered up their involvement in her death.

There must be others who have been injured ect. by James Arthur Ray either physically, financially or mentally...please, please, please contact officials and tell your story. This must be stopped before more people are hurt!"
__________________QUOTE_________________________


_________QUOTE_______________

by bj1285 October 13, 2009 12:25 PM EDT

I am someone who has also spent $1,000's to attend James Ray events myself. I was at the one in San Diego. I was shocked and horrified to read about the death at the one I attended and no one I know knew about that! Shocked as well that 2 died and 19 injured at the sweat lodge. I was emotional damaged myself at the event in San Diego. It took me a couple of months just to gather myself together again to be able to function. I sent a letter to him and ask for my money back and for a refund for the upcoming seminar that I am suppose to attend in Las Vegas. As of yet, I have not heard anything at all back from them.
I have to say that I don't believe that he knows what he is doing and has no business taking people out on these "outings". It was the 2 "outtings" that threw me for a loop. We were dropped off in a city and told to "act" homeless. It was traumatic for me and then we were dropped off at one of the richest neighborhood in the US for a scavenger hunt. It was during these 2 events that I had emotional trauma. There was also an incident where the police were called. The reason I participated in these "outtings" was because I trusted him to do no harm to us. I was way wrong! I would love to be part of a class action suit against him, if not more anything else but to at least get my $6,000 back. I have felt like a complete idiot that I trusted someone this much and that he does not live up to this word!
I sure to do hope that he is going to be held accountable for these deaths! I doubt that he will refund my any money even though he talks about how his seminars are satisfaction guaranteed! I have thought it was just a matter of time before something more tragic happened to someone else. I never thought that that would be death!
Please anyone thinking about attending of these events, please think very seriously about it, wish I had. I'm now going to lose $1,000's because I will not attend the seminar coming up in Las Vegas.
I hope the families of these people will have a very public law suit and not kick this under the table. Others need to be warmed!
My condolences go out to the families of the death of 3 partipants.

___________________QUOTE_____________________

by parkrapidsmn October 14, 2009 3:05 PM EDT

I am shocked to hear that you did not know of Colleen's death! I wonder how on earth they could have possibly covered something like that up to the other participants.
You mentioned that there was even one event where the police were called. Was that the "outting" to Horton Plaza where she died maybe? If you don't mind me asking- what events did lead up to the Horton Plaza outting...and what was suppose to be it's purpose?
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions but, since her death I, along with many others have so many unanswered questions.
Thank You.
_________________________QUOTE__________________

Sadly, new reports have confirmed that this woman died as stated by a family member, while in San Diego at a "seminar".

Woman in fatal Horton Plaza fall identified [forum.culteducation.com]
The family member has said in blog comments, that she died during the seminar while doing a "group field trip to Horton Plaza Mall".

She died on Saturday July 25, 2009, 1:40 p.m.

James Arthur Ray Creating Absolute Wealth Seminar in San Diego CA Jul 24-26 2009 [tr.im]


Did she die while on a "group field trip to Horton Plaza Mall" during the seminar?
Why was this not reported?

Was it because she had no ID on her, just like the people in the "sweat lodge" had no ID on them, which seriously impeded the rescue efforts?

Is this the reason the LGAT seminars get people to NOT take their ID with them on "field trips"?
Of course. In case something terrible happens, they don't want any connection with it.


This is the extreme danger and human tragedy of these LGAT seminars.
They take decent, kind people, who have no training or knowledge of these areas whatsoever, and they ruthlessly subject them to the harshest psychological techniques known in the world.
Some of them have a breakdown, and take their own lives.

The seminar Guru's know this, it happens quite frequently, as anyone who has worked in this area knows.
A death happens a few months ago at a seminar, and more deaths a few months later, and people have been hurt for years upon years.
And they do more LGAT seminars, and try to pretend they are "shocked" when people get hurt.
They are not shocked. They know people get serious hurt regularly, and sometimes even die.

And its the kindest people, who are "too nice" and "too trusting" who pay the price, financially, emotionally, psychologically, physically, and sometimes with their very life.

I just feel sick to my stomach reading about the San Diego death. I'm trying to recall whether ID was relinquished for the BKI School. I didn't go on the field trip...and that's a story in itself.

By the time the announcement that we were to board a bus came around (and it was sudden, as was every other event), I'd already put my guard up high enough to know to bolt from the room. I'd been sitting on the fringes throughout the School, leaving whenever I felt uncomfortable and slipping back in from time to time to see what was going on. If there had been announcements about the field trip the night before, I had missed them...as I missed so many of the events. I believe folks were encouraged to leave their ID with staff, to be collected afterward. I wish I could remember this in detail. I just know my heart was beating hard and I was NOT going on any field trip. Staff members were quietly moving to cover the doors...maybe they were meant to be seen as organizing us, but I felt threatened by their presence at all the exits. I moved toward a door and a staff member put out a hand to detain me, asking if I was a repeat participant. I just pushed past her and ran. I was feeling pretty panicked and don't recall much about the moments before I left...it happened very fast. There was nothing explicitly threatening going on, but my body responded as if it was in real danger.

Later, I did attend the post-trip discussion. The folks who spoke seemed calm, proud of their experiences...reinforcing the feeling that only wimps opted out. I don't think many people spoke of negative experiences. By that time, everyone knew that negativity was going to result in "doing The Work" in front of everyone...so I think there were inevitably fewer unhappy reports.

Now, there's just.......sorrow. Real horror. Deep sorrow.