Solea that is well put, and your suggestions are sane and practical. I think it would be better that my son go in informed, rather then I forbid him or otherwise control his choices. The problem with a messianic figure as you so eloquently describe it, is when people give up all their personal responsibility to that leader. And it would be better that my son learn to be responsible for his own choices, even should he go to Byron Katie's group, that he go in with a critical 'detached' mind. That way, rather then becoming a servent to someone else's ambitions he learns something in the process regardless of what is the wisest choice in these matters. From my own experiences you can be anywhere, in any situation, around anyone, and if the proper faculties are well developed namely self-confidence, critical thinking, peace and contentment then every situation is a learning experience and nothing can harm you, you become no one's servant.

One has to wonder why the recent increase in Byron Katie apologia/propaganda?

Its interesting how basically always the main method around Byron Katie, is denial, deflection, distraction...but also exaggeration. Who is talking about violent terrorists or death cults?
People have been talking about the Love-Bombs, and powerful subtle persuasion, and Engineering Consent.

As has been detailed in the thread, its a high-demand cultish group, for the people who really get into it. And it is running one of the more disturbing LGAT's in the world.
What is wrong with that?

Well first off, it PROVES that the entire Byron Katie thing is a sham.
You see, Byron Katie claims to have been enlightened by magic, when some cockroach crawled over her in the 1980's, and says she had never read a book, etc, etc.
That has been shown to be FALSE, as people from back then have stated she mainly just picked stuff from various other workshops, and books, and writings at the time.

And her 9-day LGAT seminar is a clone of many of the recent LGAT seminars. Why? Because they simply copied all the other LGAT seminars methods, and they combine them together in their own way.
So even just the fact that they are running an LGAT seminar, actually proves the entire Byron Katie thing is a sham. Its just a bunch of LGAT techniques.

And LGAT's are very dangerous, from Landmark, to many others. The effects can last for many YEARS, and some people can have very serious, even lethal problems from LGAT's.
That is why everyone has to sign the BYRON KATIE RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]

(one has to hope that more people will refuse to sign those types of releases, and just refuse to attend any "seminar" with such outrageous and heinous demands being made on them)


And its strange to bring up Jim Jones.
But the thing about Jim Jones, is that there was a documentary crew in Jonestown with the officials, the day before the tragedy. And initially, everything seemed "fine". Why?
Because people were TERRIFIED of complaining about Jonestown, as their own friends and children would report them to Jim Jones. It was a climate of extreme fear of speaking out.

Where else is there a climate of fear and silence, and everyone signed to GAG-contracts? That is happening around Byron Katie right now.

And right up to the point where the Jonestown tragedy happened, some people were saying Jim Jones was a hero. Why did people miss the warning signs? Jim Jones was not some mere "madman", he was a highly sophisticated mass persuader, and much beyond that.

Many children and people were murdered at Jonestown. But also, many others appear to have "Voluntarily" committed mass suicide. There is even a discussion recorded on tape about that, right before it happened.

JONESTOWN, PBS, American Experience, the meaning of "Voluntary" [forum.culteducation.com]

It does remind one of the current cultish groups that say everything is "Voluntary".
Yeah, well Jonestown mass suicide was "Voluntary" for some of the people too. That needs to be explained more carefully by researchers and scholars and psychologists.

But even though Jonestown ended in a mass homicide/suicide of 900 people, there are still similarities to current groups, even though they are not homicidal.

For example, they ONLY listened to information from Jim Jones.
Which current group states in their LGAT seminar list, that people are to ONLY read materials by their current Guru during the LGAT?
___________QUOTE_____________________________________
THE DREADED LIST [forum.culteducation.com]
You have entered the world of The School for The Work, the School of You. We ask that you not use, consume, or engage in, any of the following:

• outside contact with family or friends, including email and letters
• cell phones, pagers, computers
• television, radio, music
• books, tapes, or magazines (other than The School materials)
_________________________________________________

That is the Jim Jones method, he was also the only source of information.
He played his voice on speakers 24 hrs a day for that reason. Its a brainwashing tactic.

And that Byron Katie list is WORSE than most LGAT's.
The "Dreaded List" from above, then moves into the TOTAL CONTROL of SEX, FOOD, non-prescription drugs, makeup...
You see what they are doing? They are implementing total control of people's behavior, and minds, by going after their PRIMAL needs. That are very extreme methods.

But possibly the most important thing about this is, is the aspect of something being "Voluntary".
"Voluntary" is not absolute, when in the hands of skilled persuaders.
Now they have disclaimers you sign that says "its all Voluntary". That is their last defense. "Its Voluntary".

The reality is that these Guru's know these techniques and methods, and they make them APPEAR "Voluntary" even though its taken the level of extreme financial and personal exploitation.

When some group fills their LGAT seminar waiver with the phrase...ITS ALL VOLUNTARY...you better run for the hills. This means they are 100% conscious of their extreme persuasion techniques, and that they can get people to do things they would not normally do, and are trying to cover their own asses.

Its the planned, and systematic engineering of seemingly "Voluntary" consent.
And its totally conscious and deliberate.
Why else would they fill their disclaimers with "Its all Voluntary" over and over?
Is it because of all the complaints after, when people can't explain why they did what they did, and felt they had been manipulated, coerced, duped, tricked?

How can seemingly voluntary "consent" be engineered by a Guru or professional persuader?

That is what its really these threads are all about.
How EXACTLY Guru's are able to engineer what appears to be "voluntary consent" in large groups of people.
Powerful persuasion and influence, in large groups and one-on one, without the subjects conscious awareness. Engineering consent.

Want to find out how its done? Read this thread.
Even just the AWARENESS of the techniques will make them far less effective.

There needs to be a lot more research done in this area, as those who are doing this type of powerful persuasion professionally, are very sophisticated, and get better at it every year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 02:13PM by The Anticult.

Anticult, your last comment is a drastic improvement over previous comments, so much more clear, and I get the drift much more clearly. The previous ones do not serve your cause very well, but in this one you have really laid it out, maybe not perfectly, but I get the picture.

The phenomenon you describe is pretty disgusting.

And speaking of "voluntary suicide".
What about this about the Byron Katie "death cocktail"?

[janakisstory.wordpress.com]
"She told me that she and Stephen had made a pact with each other. She said that if ever either one of them would attract a disease that would involve a slow dying process, they would throw a party, invite all their close friends and both drink a death cocktail"

assisted suicide? [forum.culteducation.com]

What is the meaning of this Story? Is it literal?
Are they talking about public suicide at a "death party"?

Or is it meant as a Story of deep persuasion, designed to make her closest followers also feel like they would WANT to "love" her so much, they would also join her in her "pact"?
(and thus dedicate their entire life to working for her for free).

One must always remember, the Stories carry symbolic, as well as literal meanings. They work on several levels at once.

to the points below...

- if all a person "claims" is to have read a Byron Katie "book", then they need to do some research about the seminars, business, and everything else. The books are like a fish-hook, you are the fish.
But that "book" claim is not credible, its been tried about 15 times.

- no, Anatta said he'd supposedly spent 15,000 hrs "meditating", how many thousands of hours were spent learning about LGAT's? Sounds like zero.
What about meditation cults, like TM? Their system is quite similar to the Byron Katie one, bait & switch.

- skepticalrepublican said..."mind my business"? whoopsie, that is a Katie-ism slip. You see, the BK programming slips out even when its trying to be concealed.

- the point about the BK money, is that various BK apologists wave their hands and say..."we would like more open disclosure". Its a tactic, same as Landmark. There will NEVER be more open disclosure about the MONEY, its a PRIVATE COMPANY. All the money is long gone.
But thanks for admitting that Byron Katie is an aggressive capitalist entrepreneur.


- and the public political contributions are listed. Looks like they are listed as Democrats.
Katie Mitchell, a self-employed writer (Byron Mitchell) [forum.culteducation.com]


- the comments by Anatta were not "well-reasoned", what an absurdity. Byron Katie carries the "burden of proof". They have made the claims they can ELIMINATE SUFFERING and ELIMINATE DEPRESSION, and many other claims.
It is 100% up to them to prove it. But there is no proof for anything at all.
There are no references for ANY of Byron Katie's stories. Name one reference?
Its all anecdotes and stories, and its all uncheckable, on purpose.

And all the LGAT's talk about "studies" that are "coming". Again, more lies, yes...lies. They never come. Because they don't want to be held accountable for anything, they want to stay classified as "entertainment".


So that is another clever attempted BK Turnaround, to try and question OTHERS about evidence and facts, when in fact, these threads probably have several hundred times the evidence, than all of Byron Katie's materials put together.
There is no evidence or references there, in her material, and that is totally deliberate.

This is why they try to suppress people's critical intelligence...as if you use your naturally intelligent mind and common sense, then they are powerless.

(and take note of the endless dishonest tactics by the Byron Katie promoters in this thread, its there to be seen by anyone. They clearly have no taboo about making up Stories, without any regard for the "truth" or facts, or even objective reality. One would be a fool at this point, to believe anything coming out of that Byron Katie system, without rigorous cross-checking of every single thing, point by point).

Quote
skepticalrepublican
Is it possible to read the books, and be inspired, but not have attended a seminar? Just curious.


So the issue is that you've spent thousands of hours reading about LGATS and anatta hasn't?


So? We do live in a capitalist society if you haven't noticed. On point number 3, why is it my business what they spend their money on, as you, say it's PRIVATE, PERIOD! Maybe that suggests I should mind my business. As long as she's not supporting the Democrats or left wing 'freedom fighters', she can spend it on anything she wants.


So I suppose well reasoned arguments such as those evidenced by anatta are the "coercive persuasion" technique used by Byron Katie. Terrifying!!!

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 03:15PM by The Anticult.

Is Rick Ross both rrmoderator, and the Anticult, just curious?

"- if all a person "claims" is to have read a Byron Katie "book", then they need to do some research about the seminars, business, and everything else. The books are like a fish-hook, you are the fish.
But that "book" claim is not credible, its been tried about 15 times."

Agreed.

"- no, Anatta said he'd supposedly spent 15,000 hrs "meditating", how many thousands of hours were spent learning about LGAT's? Sounds like zero.
What about meditation cults, like TM? Their system is quite similar to the Byron Katie one, bait & switch. "

What do you mean Bait and switch?

"- skepticalrepublican said..."mind my business"? whoopsie, that is a Katie-ism slip. You see, the BK programming slips out even when its trying to be concealed. "

No it's a Newt Gengrich-ism.

"- the comments by Anatta were not "well-reasoned", what an absurdity. Byron Katie carries the "burden of proof". They have made the claims they can ELIMINATE SUFFERING and ELIMINATE DEPRESSION, and many other claims.
It is 100% up to them to prove it. But there is no proof for anything at all.
There are no references for ANY of Byron Katie's stories. Name one reference?
Its all anecdotes and stories, and its all uncheckable, on purpose."

Agreed.

" So that is another clever attempted BK Turnaround, to try and question OTHERS about evidence and facts, when in fact, these threads probably have several hundred times the evidence, than all of Byron Katie's materials put together.
There is no evidence or references there, in her material, and that is totally deliberate.

This is why they try to suppress people's critical intelligence...as if you use your naturally intelligent mind and common sense, then they are powerless."

Ya know, I really don't see it. But then again, I haven't read the whole thread, but I have checked out some of the stuff in the Kassie-anticult debate, and the anatta-anticult debate and some of the stuff put forward by rrmoderator.

"(and take note of the endless dishonest tactics by the Byron Katie promoters in this thread, its there to be seen by anyone. They clearly have no taboo about making up Stories, without any regard for the "truth" or facts, or even objective reality. One would be a fool at this point, to believe anything coming out of that Byron Katie system, without rigorous cross-checking of every single thing, point by point"

The fact that both kassie and anatta were willing to concede that what is said about Byron Katie could be true, suggests that this is not the case. Yes, it might help them be under the radar, but it wouldn't help convince people that Byron Katie is O.K. The fact that they were inspired by the 4 questions but did not seem particularly defensive about LGATS suggests that they are not promoters. That they are interested and influenced, possibly.

"This is why they try to suppress people's critical intelligence...as if you use your naturally intelligent mind and common sense, then they are powerless. "

Because I am blissful, and not looking for externally provided happiness which is an illusion, no one can suppress my critical intelligence, and you are right, those who try to manipulate others are powerless, because they don't realize that bliss is innate. The way to undermine all people who are stupid enough to try to cheat others, or manipulate others (when they are only doing so to themselves) is to realize no one can manipulate anyone without their consent.

I should imagine that while the money keeps rolling in BK will enjoy her Ojai mansion and the goodlife.

Unfortunately the economic downturn has an effect even on these fraudulent gurus, money is tight for everyone and that will have an impact on cash-flow. I have noticed an increased sales pressure from even the most successful of these salesmen with intesified email campaigns etc in the past few months. These are businesses after all and the profit on the bottom-line is paramount. Every business is currently increasing the sales pressure.

BK's constant stories making use of the most frightening images, war, Nazi death methods, robbery at gunpoint and suicide pacts may be intended as gateway image metaphors to induce her followers to abandon everything (cash and power) to her, but in a pressured situation these are the images that also induce/contribute to paranoia, in both the receiver and the storyteller.

These gurus are not immune from their own metaphorical imagemaking, and while BK is not yet as far gone as a Jim Jones or a David Koresh, the potential is there and growing as long as BK keeps up the metaphors and imagemaking.
It seems to me that she is very attached to this confusion inducing power of hers and will be unlikely to surrender it voluntarily.

In his first years as a cult leader Jones was hailed as a social reformer, a person with the ability to take damaged and disadvantaged people and improve their lives. That endeared him to the politicos and gave him the respectability to present a plausible, acceptable face to his organisation.
BK is attempting to gain the same general acceptance from those who might otherwise see something amiss in what she's doing.
BK is mentally unstable by her own admission, not someone I'd want to be around, or have a family member be around, when economic and other unavoidable pressures begin to take a toll on her organisation.

skepticalrepublican:

rrmoderator is my only name at this message board. And yes I am Rick Ross.

I do not post under any other name.

You said, "No one can manipulate anyone without their consent."

This statement is not correct.

People are manipulated every day without their knowledge, which is the nature of many persuasion schemes.