Here is another Suzuki Roshi disciple promoting Byron Katie:

On the second page of "Loving What Is" David Chadwick, author of Crooked Cucumber: The Life and Teaching of Shunryu Suzuki, makes a short review for her book. He also gives his thumbs up on thework.com site.

A reviewer for "I need your love: Is it true?" is John Tarrant.

John Tarrant, David Chadwick and Michael Katz are all listed on this page for the Shunryu Suzuki Legacy Project at the San Francisco Zen Center.

www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Project/SSLP/sslp-proposal-5th.html

Cuke.com (run by Chadwick) is an archival site for Shunryu Suzuki's life and on the top of the front page is PZI - Pacific Zen Institute which was founded by John Tarrant.

Richard Baker (as TAC pointed out) was also associated with Michael Katz was an early follower of Shunryu Suzuki:

"In December, 1971, shortly before his death, Shunryu Suzuki roshi gave Richard Baker Dharma transmission in the Sôtô sect of Zen thus making Baker, for his students and for all future people in his lineage, an authentic link to the historical Buddha.25 As such, Baker became the official teacher and Abbot26 of the San Francisco Zen Center (SFZC) and Shunryu Suzuki’s sole western heir. This Dharma transmission set in motion the financial, behavioral, and sexual scandal at the SFZC that culminated in 1983."

"Unfortunately, this scandal was not unique in American Zen history, for there are few major centers untouched by such scandals.27 The Baker/ SFZC/ Suzuki case serves well as an example of what can go wrong, exposing some of the underlying causes and, all too often, toxic consequences."

[mandala.hr]

David Chadwick was an early student of both Suzuki and Baker.

Here is an interesting article about Suzuki and Baker (Chadwick is discussed) titled "Myth of the Zen Roshi":

[www.mandala.hr]

Some thoughts on waging war on your mind:

UG Krishnamurti - Thought is your enemy

[www.scribd.com]

Jiddu Krishnamurti - knowledge is the enemy of man

[www.katinkahesselink.net]

Eckhart Tolle - The voice (or mind) is your worst enemy

[soulfulliving.com]

Byron Katie - Your thoughts aren't true - As long as we believe our thoughts, there will always be war

[www.articlesbase.com]
www.gaia.com/quotes/topics/thoughts

Stephen Mitchel - Thoughts weaken the mind

academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

Charles Manson - You got a prison in your mind

[en.wikiquote.org]

Wow Jay, that's great, thanks.

Ol' Charlie seems to be in interesting company, there. Good take on that, Jay.

Mr. Manson was once a member of $cientology, doncha know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2009 10:10PM by helpme2times.

Dialogues with UG Krisnhamurti quoted by Luna Tarlo, mother of Andrew Cohen, from her memoir, The Mother of God.

UG seems to have pioneered some kind of idiot savant method.

(Context)

Without consciously being aware of it, Luna Tarlo was becoming weary of the abuse she endured from her son, Andrew Cohen, after he became spontaneously enlightened in company of HWL Poonja. In February, about 5 months before she realized she could no longer endure her son’s nastiness, Luna Tarlo picked up a book by UG Krisnhamurti.

Quote

'As I left my apartment to take the train back to Boston, I grabbed without looking, a book amongst those that belonged to Andrew in my bookcase. It was titled The Mystique of Enlightenement—The Unrational Ideas of a Man Called U.G.

UG was UG Krishnamurti, an Indian gentleman who happened to be born in the same area of South India as was the famous J. Krisnamurti—Andhra Pradesh—where Krishnamurti is a fairly common name. They were not in any way related, but, oddly enough, both had worked for the Theosophical Society and had met each other there. In actual fact, J. Krishnamurti was UG’s favorite target in many of his attacks on gurus and their false promises and their lust for power.

(Tarlo, The Mother of God, 1997 Plover Presspage 246)

On the following page, Tarlo tells us something of the complexities of being devotees struggling to remain loyal to a bullying guru, while exposing themselves to material that has the potential to assist them to make a later and successful rejection of that abusive guru.

Quote

‘In Boston, the book went the rounds of our house. (Tarlo was with a group of Andrew disciples living in a communal house). Everyone was equally captivated. No one saw any conflict between UG’s ideas, and those of Andrew. Instead, they saw yet more confirmation of Andrew as a godman.’ (page 247)

In summer of that year, Tarlo went to join another group of disciples, mostly women. She overheard that her son had wondered, derisively, why some disciples of his would want to live in 'a house full of old ladies.'---namely Tarlo herself and some middle aged female disciples of Andrew's. For the past two years, Tarlo had had many grievious doubts about her son and his increasing cruelty but had managed to rationalize them. But all at once, a tipping point came when she had more than she could rationalize and reached saturation point.

Quote

‘When I put down the telephone receiver’ Tarlo writes ‘I felt as if I had received a blow to the head. Bizarre as it may seem, laughable to some, that perfunctory remark to Leslie (made by Andrew) was the catalyst that would alter the chemistry of my relationship to Andrew forever. I felt clobbered by something I had hadn’t wanted to acknowledge before—the fact that my once sensitive, understanding, woman loving (I’d thought) tenderhearted son had so changed.

I sat down next to the phone feeling a rush of nausea. How had this come about? Had I been negligent about something? Had there been signs in the past that I had missed? I’d always been adamant with both my sons about the necessity to treat a woman as the equal she is. With my hand still resting on the receiver, I sat without moving, stunned, sick with disappointment, and wondering whether the transformation in Andrew was the inevitable outcome of absolute male power.

‘Well, I was a woman. I was also a person. And I was the guru’s mother. Andrew was putting me down as a woman, as a person, and as his mother. Slowly, unalterably, some pivotal organ inside my body began to recoil into a state of uncontrollable rebellion.’

(Tarlo, page 250)

But…it appears Tarlo and others did need someone to validate their misgivings. And UG filled that role.

Now, here is a description of their visit to UG who visited the area at that time. UG had been answering peoples questions at a house meeting that Luna Tarlo was invited to attend. She went in state of gloom, troubled by her anger at her son. UG seemed glad to respond to questions. Then, Tarlo asked him a question about love.

Quote

When finally the questions ceased, and there was an extended silence, I roused myself to ask, “What about love? Where does love fit in?’

“Love is a four letter word” UG shot back. I looked him, dumbstruck. I was such a renegade opinion! I didn’t quite understand what he was getting at, but for me right then, it had a ring of the awful truth. “Its wanting something from someone” he continued. “And if they don’t deliver, your love turns either to hate or to indifference.” And then, with an air of impatience, he said the session was over.

‘
Tarlo tells us that only then, reflecting on all this, did she see there were actually discrepancies—major ones—between UG’s teachings and her son’s doctrine. But this helped her feel free from her son’s authority and trust her own doubts. But perhaps it is possible by that point that she might have felt liberated by encountering something else.

But…this little snapshot seems to be an early form of a turn around.

Here is a later encounter that Tarlo and other discontented Andrew disciples had with UG.

Quote

‘Julie asked UG, ‘Is it necessary to surrender to a guru?

‘Well, what can a guru give you? UG responded. ‘When you surrender to a guru, all that happens is, you give up your self reliance.’

UG continued ‘And if you sometimes fall down in life, so what if you fall?’ UG continued. ‘You’ll get up again and go on.” He paused. ‘What can a guru give you?’

Then Isabel said, and I didn’t know if she was joking—‘You know UG, sometimes I think my dog is my real guru.’

‘With a dog its easy’ UG replied. ‘It’s a one way dialogue. No back-talk.’

We all laughed.

‘’The trouble is’ UG said, ‘You people are always looking on the outside for help.’

We gaped at him. It was true.

‘It will never come’ he said. ‘No one can give you anything. The looking outside, itself, is the barrier. ‘The seeking itself, is the obstacle.’

‘So what you are saying’ I said (Luna Tarlo) is that listening to you or anyone else, for that matter, will never bring about a change in us?’

‘No’ UG agreed. ‘And the fact is, you are not even listening. You are not listening at all. Listening is not in your interest. You are interpreting. ‘

Someone asked if there was a way to live that he could recommend.

‘UG said, ‘That’s a ridiculous question! With extraordinary intelligence, in every cell of the body, the body is already living and living well. The body knows how to feed itself, reproduce itself, and heal itself. It doesn’t need the interference of thought. Thought can only create problems but it cannot help us solve the problems.’ (Tarlo, 257)

((So….here, by the punchline UG undermined thought and its value, despite his otherwise encouragingly anti authoritarian message. C ))

But UG was shrewd. Later when one of Tarlos friends phoned him to announce they’d freed themselves from Andrew Cohen, gave this response:

In the morning, Julie called UG to thank him and to tell him all five of us had left Andrew.

‘No you havent’ he said gently. ‘you have just replaced one teacher with another teacher. Take it easy. Give it some time.’ (page 261)

Tarlo wrote of having several additional meetings with UG later on.

Quote

‘I was always very appreciative that with him there were no need for cover ups. Everything was open.

‘I discovered for myself and by myself, that there is no self to realize, it comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self realization, and in the end, suddenly you discover there is no self to discover, no self to realize. And you say to yourself, Whatthe hell have I been doing all my life.?’ That blasts you.’

Tarlo then wrote:

‘I don’t know how UG knows all this but he seems to know unequivocally. He seems to know it with the kind of certainty that gurus communicate to their disciples. And this quality of absolute certainty expressed by UG keeps people circling around him like flies droning around a honeypot. It is fed by the same old hope for freedom from suffering, even though UG states over and over they they’ll never find freedom through him, that they’d best go home and live their lives as best they can…

‘But some remain obdurate followers, insisting on endowing UG with powers that he emphatically denies. Some have remained followers for years, even decades. UG allows it. He refers to them as ‘friends’ and allows them to visit him more or less whenever they wish to. I don’t know why…He himself, the quintessential anti guru, must know that they nevertheless persist in regarding him as a guru, perhaps, paradoxically enough, as the guru above all other gurus, just because he denies being a guru—and lets them come…..

‘But why does UG bother to talk to people at all, I wonder? Ive wondered about this for a long time and have not been able to come up with a satisfactory answer. When asked this question directly, he answers, “Even if I wanted to hide away somewhere, they would find me.’

‘Maybe he flies around the world year in and year out answering peoples questions because he has never found anything else he wants to do. Who knows?’

(Luna Tarlo, The Mother of God pp 266-76)

So..it may be UG also pioneered a form of idiot savant.

from the LGAT thread:

A list of LGATs and their founders. Useful for timeline research

[forum.culteducation.com]

However, it doesnt include information about cross pollination, such as Werner Erhard (EST) sponsoring Muktananda to come visit the US and then Muk utilizing modern American EST tech in his supposedly ancient Kashmiri Shavite 'Intensives'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2009 12:52AM by corboy.

hey Don Shimoda...

this is a very serious thread, about specific LGAT mass persuasion techniques, and specific sales techniques being used by folks like Byron Katie on unsuspecting people. People are getting their minds and lives screwed with beyond belief. Its very serious stuff.

as mentioned, Eckhart Tolle has been debunked in great detail at these links. [forum.culteducation.com]
Eckhart Tolle is extremely manipulative, getting people to buy all his videos, products, silent meetings, etc. Of course he is a Guru, he's a self-absorbed egomaniac, ironically.
Why not discuss Tolle in another thread?
All of that ground has been covered, hasn't it?


By the way, Don Shimoda was a pilot in the Richard Bach book ILLUSIONS,
That is also what Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie sell....ILLUSIONS. They are master illusionists.

and ironically, Richard Bach's books turn out to also be a series of outright frauds! His so-called Soulmate marriage was in the crapper even while he was writing about how wonderful it was, it was total BS.
and Richard Bach so-called Soulmate Leslie, has banned him from ever using her name in print again.

Richard Bach posts:
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]

thanks for this. These people are just beyond reproach.
Why are they trying to crush people's natural minds and thinking processes?
Human cognition and consciousness is a wonder of Nature, its the greatest thing in the universe since pop-tarts. So why do they want to crush it?

To create obedient followers.
Hey, they are allowed to think, and write books, and sell their junk. But not you!
These guys are simply out to lunch at best on this, if not just lying.
Healthy critical intelligence, and creative thinking is a wonder of evolution and of Nature. Without it, we'd all be eating berries, if we were lucky.

Some of it seems to be primitive philosophy from a time when life was starvation and misery, expecially in the ancient east.
Some of the other stuff is to WRECK the independent minds so people will do what they are told.
The Queen does the thinking, the pawn footsoldiers do follower orders.

Stephen Mitchell has to be one of the biggest _______ in _______.(insert your own thought!) Thoughts weaken the mind? No. His wife Byron Katie putting her subjects on low-calorie low-protein diets, and sleep-deprivation...that weakens the mind. So it can be reshaped by the Queen.

They want to crush your mind, so they can take over.
They know if people have powerful minds and creative intelligence, then they are out of business.

Quote
Jay Cruise
Some thoughts on waging war on your mind:

UG Krishnamurti - Thought is your enemy

[www.scribd.com]

Jiddu Krishnamurti - knowledge is the enemy of man

[www.katinkahesselink.net]

Eckhart Tolle - The voice (or mind) is your worst enemy

[soulfulliving.com]

Byron Katie - Your thoughts aren't true - As long as we believe our thoughts, there will always be war

[www.articlesbase.com]
www.gaia.com/quotes/topics/thoughts

Stephen Mitchel - Thoughts weaken the mind

academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

Charles Manson - You got a prison in your mind

[en.wikiquote.org]

Quote
The Anticult
Stephen Mitchell has to be one of the biggest _______ in _______.(insert your own thought!) Thoughts weaken the mind? No. His wife Byron Katie putting her subjects on low-calorie low-protein diets, and sleep-deprivation...that weakens the mind. So it can be reshaped by the Queen.

Someone at the Guruphiliac forum shared this very recently re Stephen Mitchell:

"Her husband freaked me out and that's a totally random thing to say, however, it could be because she told the school that he had burned all the copies of her first /second book and all the copies stored in Europe, and I remember thinking "and who's business was he in?" He said it was because it was very anecdotal and not based on evidence - jumped about too much. Indirect aggression?"

[[url=http://guruphiliac.lefora.com/2009/03/23/byron-katies-school-for-the-work-march-09/page2/#post7783613]Byron Katie's School For The Work March '09[/url]]