Right. Here I was thinking she could be bipolar lol. I could see how people with mental health issues might read that book and find some sense in it, but if you are reading it and finding it insightful you are in real trouble. It fed into the idea she was a trailer park mom and her story of walking up to strangers in the 1980s and holding their hands. She talks about holding her hand in front of her face and being blown away as if she is sixteen and tripping on LSD.

It was difficult to understand how completely nonsensical writing like this could be described as complex conversational hypnosis but yeah I get what you are saying. It's forgivable for wondering if she might have a mental disorder herself. Although I'm still not entirely convinced that she doesn't.

"Putman (1997) has labeled this phenomenon "dissociative thought disorder" to describe the kind of "trance logic" that is typical of dissociative patients who have the ability to tolerate mutually contradictory propositions without seeming awareness of their logical discordance."

Often in cults contradictions in a guru's philosophy or actions become apparent. This trance logic would serve to stop recruits from noticing them, right?

You said that for unindoctrinated people it is unreadable so a person would need to be already affected by a pre-existing dissociative disorder or Katie's influence to be affected by this book. It is designed to really push a person close to the edge completely over.

Google 'Zen and Moon' and see what you get in the way of books.

Go to the first hand reports section. I posted a story from the Guruphiliac thread describing a 1999-2000 New Years Cleanse.

As for moon in the title of Zen books and poems...

A cherished and often used anthology of Dogen Zenji's writings (he was founder of the Soto Zen school in which Suzuki Roshi taught--as did Richard 'Dick' Baker)--

It is entitled Moon in a Dewdrop:Writings of Zen Master Dogen edited by Kazuaki Tanahashi.

I am relieved to report that the copyright for this book was 1985, two years after Dick Baker was at last compelled to resign from San Francisco Zen Center.

In the introduction, Tanahashi graciously acknowledged Bakers generosity in enabling him to join the ZC community in 1977 as a guest scholar. The translation work took place during the critical period of 1977 to 1984/5, during the height of the crisis that led to Bakers departure. This translation process was highly collaborative, with a large team of students and teachers checking each other's work.

However, Baker is not listed in the roster of names of those named as participating in the translation process, nor are Michael Katz or Stephen Mitchell.

Tanahashi made clear that it was a difficult process to interpret Dogen and in contrast to Mitchells approach to the Tao Te Ching, Tanahashi provides us a glossary of terms so that Dogens use of very technical Japanese and Chinese terms, words and metaphores can be better understood.

Here's the link to the other thread, which will take you to the report of the 1999-2000 Cleanse.

[forum.culteducation.com]

As Helpme noted, it is meaninful that it took close to a decade before the informant felt able to bear witness. In the posts that follow there are reflections on how it may have taken a decade or more before a variety of sanctuaries became available for persons who had misgivings about BK.

Prior to that, people may have feared to say anything negative, for fear of being shouted down and losing their sense of belonging, not only in BK land,but their network of friendships in the seekers scene.

BK and those like her are very different from ethical professional therapists who aim to support autonomy for clients.

Therapists cannot by the terms of their profession, offer a sense of belonging or give community to their clients. A professional is forbidden to do anything to foster dependency. The professional therapist safeguards boundaries and cannot ethically socialize with clients outside the relationship.

But for those who seek belonging, as well as healing, this stance may seen cold and rejecting.

The New Age healers offer something no ethical professional can ever offer--healing PLUS family feeling and belonging.

If dared question BK, you risked losing access to the whole extended family of people who long to hope that instant transformation is possible.

Note that many now skeptical of BK still believe in the Work, and by extension the community of inspirational longing
that carries the Work.

Good luck. It is to be feared some new boss will slip in and fill the hole vacated by the deflation of BK's mythologized
image.

You can bet some entreprenuers and euses are already circling, hoping to collect bereaved followers.

Others, with the best intentions of offering non autoritarian Work process may risk the temptation and perhaps
become isolated and overworked and end up behaving like smaller versions of BK.

There are reasons why licensed therapists are usually expected to have done training analyses and limit their caseloads and are warned to safeguard their private lives.

Its easy for a helper to fall victim to temptation. Go read Power in the Helping Professions, by Adolf Guggenbuhl Craig.

He warns of the shadow diminsion of such occupations.

here's the link to that post about the advertisement disguised as an article.
[forum.culteducation.com]
its almost unbelievable that some normal everyday people, "Girlfriends" are going to be lured into one of these Byron Katie mind-crushing LGAT Soul-Surgery seminars, with no advanced notice of what is going on in there.
Notice that Lauren Gard didn't mention anything about signing that RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com] which allows BKI to sell for profit your video/audio deepest confessions, or anything else. Your most "shameful" moment of your life will be recorded on the mic, and could end up on YouTube forever, or sold on a CD or DVD.
Why didn't she mention anything about medications, etc?
How can a "writer" pimp themselves out like that? For a few bucks?

They are setting these people up, they will be blind-sided, and they don't stand a chance.
What a world. This has risen to the Scientology level of deception.

But again, that is done on purpose. Notice how in the recent report about the School for The Work, how the reviewer mentioned there were many people there who knew nothing about what was going on. Byron Katie knows that these techniques are 100x more powerful on the innocent mind, that completely Surrenders.
For an experienced person, with training in this area, BK is almost powerless, as they see right through the mass-persasion techniques. So they target people in the demographic who don't have any training whatsoever in this area.

A lot of people are going to be terribly hurt. they are just going through their life, minding their own business, and they end up in this mega-LGAT by Byron Katie, soul-surgery targeted at blindsided newbies, and next thing they know, as reported here [forum.culteducation.com] they experience a serious mental disorder,or even a psychotic break.

Quote
helpme2times
I'm reposting the link to the "Fast(ing) Friends" article by Lauren Gard, since I had to go hunt for the link so I could read the article myself:

[[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29722823/]Fast(ing) Friends Meet For Detoxifying Treat[/url]]

Quote
Christa
So, I'd like to react to Anticult's spot-on analysis of the article "Fasting Friends" from my perspective as a member of the target audience. (Incidentally, the vacation this article describes doesn't come across to me as something just for the ladies-who-lunch crowd. I see it also as a spa trip younger thirty-something women might do.)

by this way, this method of using deception, goes back a long way for Byron Katie.
For example, in the Janaki blog, she had a chapter talking about how she first met BK.
First, she was contacted for recruitment by a BK insider from connections with Muktananda, and strongly influenced to go to a BK Workshop, and she said she did NOT want to go.

But they persisted, and got her to phone BK, under the ruse she would get an interview.
Then, she is told by BK she is getting an interview, and shows up, and its a "Workshop", which is a soul-surgery powerful LGAT seminar.
Meanwhile, obviously BK had collected information about her from her friend, and used her persuasion techniques on her to bring her into the organization.
Its the same pattern, using any means necessary, including outright deceit, to get them into the tent. Once they are in the tent, then its checkmate for certain people.

How Byron Katie met Janaki
[forum.culteducation.com]

the BKI folks are sending out some troops to do some damage control, (one connected with Stephen Mitchell), from the recent review of the BK LGAT seminar, at the Guruphiliac forum thread. [guruphiliac.lefora.com]
Very clever approach, basically they sing from the BKI songbook...its all Voluntary, which is a meaningless false statement, due to all the covert social manipulation going on.
People can be trained in these LGAT's to do almost anything, they get flipped into a Manic state, for example, which has been done for decades, and they spend a fortune. Groups of people can even be pushed "voluntarily" commit suicide.

There is also a sneaky claim that the BK School seminar is about bringing up deep emotions, which can be worked on. That is a false statement. Every LGAT says that, and its a ruse. Besides that type of "emotional purging" has been proven to be very damaging.

That same person also says they only went to one BK seminar, and have no desire to go back. (to counteract what was said about all the BK seminar Repeaters, which is a FACT, most LGATS are full of Repeaters, that where they make a lot of their money).
That same person also then says, that BK was a poor seminar leader until recently.
They have obviously not been truthful in that post. How can they know how much money BK was making, if they only went to one seminar? Its impossible, so they are probably a longterm BK staffer, trying to counteract the criticism, by making up BS. In their mind, they probably think the critics are some "enemy" spreading lies, so they feel they have a right to lie. But of course, anyone deep into the BK system, does not even recognize the word "lie". They can say anything, as long as they believe it. By now, its appropriate to not believe anything anyone in BKI says, without hard facts and objective evidence. Not a word.

The idea that BK was a poor seminar leader until recently, is a outright falsehood. She has been given large "gifts" by all kinds of people. And that money did not end up in the Foundation. Also, where did all the cash go?
She lives in a multimillion dollar estate, and god knows where money is stashed all over the world.
So its a ruse some BKI salesperson is trying to deflect from the criticism of the School.

Its almost funny, how some wonder why BK charges $5,000 for 9 days. Simple answer, to make millions! and that money goes into their private companies.

some very slick and clever people in that BK system, who promote and staff it.
They always push people away from thinking about the specific meta-level techniques of group persuasion being used covertly.

They even use the "cult" label as a hook, to further confuse the issue. The issue isn't even really about "cults".

The issue is about the powerful persuasion techniques, in the LGAT seminar format, being used on these people, without their awareness, to induce behaviors.
Most people have no idea of what is even being done to them.

Byron Katie is using these techniques, and they want to keep that hidden, so they keep working. Its that simple. As well, many of them are too blinded in indocrination to see outside of what is going on.

you have to hope there is some Karma in this world, that those running around doing this stuff, are going to get blowback someday.
But, they mainly get away with it, as those who are damaged, don't have the power to fight back, and usually blame themselves. And the (very) few who do fight back, eventually just get a financial pay-off and then have to stay silent, like with Landmark.

Its sad, but those who are experts at screwing with people's minds, and who are motivated for commerical reasons, they never give up. There is too much money on the line, millions.
Its like watching one of those nature TV shows, the pack of wolves, the predators, they don't go after those who can fight back. They target only those who they know they can take-down easily.
But in this show, the wolves first pull sheepskins over their heads, and get everyone in a group hug, before they strike.

but unlike wolves which are real predators, and who kill for survival, people like BK feed on their own kind in a sick and twisted way. They enjoy taking from those they feel are sheep and weak, they enjoy playing with their prey in a sick and twisted way and tell you that they are your best friend, teacher, it is spiritual or some other crap.

It all comes down to the fact that those with serious mental illnesses, like BK, are no longer "normal" human beings. They do not think like we do and they indeed think that everyone needs what they have.

I used to think that the writings of these men and women were insightful, wise and healthy. I have since come to the conclusion that they are not.

I have been reading Taoism, the philosophical parts. They make real sense, are very enlightening and filled with not only common sense, but truly insightful comments. There is no cognitive dissonance when ones reads the Tao, it may be confusing sometimes, but it can at least be somewhat grasped.

You don't find that in BK's work!

Quote
The Anticult
the BKI folks are sending out some troops to do some damage control, (one connected with Stephen Mitchell), from the recent review of the BK LGAT seminar, at the Guruphiliac forum thread. [guruphiliac.lefora.com]

One of them is "RandomStu"!

On another thread Vlinden read the below paragraph and said, "This has to be one of the most insane paragraphs I've ever read. It's absolutely incomprehensible. Does she speak like this as well? Do people follow her? Do they think they should understand her and just feel badly about themselves when they don't? "

This is on her personal blog which is not a great advertisement for the general public. I don't think cult leaders are usually this cryptic upfront. I am going to need to read her latest books to understand why people don't find her strange. Are any of her books online?

"I invite you all to inquiry, to your own marvelous death of the body (before it dies) as you understand it to be and to be born of who and what you are not to your mind and then to understand what you are in that, as that unknowable known."

"Your own answers to the questions and examples of turnarounds have kept us as one, undivided in peace and beyond, for so many months, even years."

"I live in you and I die in you, what else is possible? Nothing."

"I love living in you if you love it and I can tell you that you live in me and only that, you are my life."

"I love not belonging to me and you do and belonging to you when I do."

"What identification have you given me? I live as that."

"Do you love me yet? I welcome you to love beyond the self."

Recruitment

Yesterday, at 6:15, Anticult wrote referring to Janakis description of meeting BK

[janakisstory.wordpress.com]

Anticult wrote:

Quote

For example, in the Janaki blog, she had a chapter talking about how she first met BK.

First, she was contacted for recruitment by a BK insider from connections with Muktananda, who strongly pushed her to go to a BK Workshop, and Janaki said she did NOT want to go.

But the friend persisted, and got her to phone BK, under the ruse she would arrange for BK to do an interview with Janaki's current mentor, who was a radio host.

Janaki arrives at BK's place to schedule an interview between BK and the radio host. J assumes only BK will be there, and it will be a quick chat. Janaki arrives -- and finds herself in a Byron Katie a "Workshop", which is a soul-surgery powerful LGAT seminar. Janaki described herself as having been depressed at that time, and depression interferes with assertiveness.

Meanwhile, obviously BK had collected information about J from her un-nammed Siddha Yoga friend, and used clever persuasion techniques J her to bring her into the organization.

In the world of espionage, this is asset recruitment, using any means necessary, including outright deceit, to get them into the tent. Once they are in the tent, then its checkmate for certain people.

I took a look and the choreography of this set up is even more finely crafted than Anticult describes. First, I will give readers a chunk of text from Janakis own story.

I will break J's text into paragraphs and sentences so readers can see a step by step METHOD being applied.

If our own CIA had been this good, 9-11 might have been prevented

Quote

Meeting Katie

Katie and I have** a very close friend in common.

(** Note J's use of the present tense. Who is this friend?. C)

My friend and I were both part of Baba Muktananda’s staff in the late 70’s and early 80’s. After Muktananda died in 1982, I went back to Holland and my friend and I stayed in regular touch with each other.

(Meanwhile, it appears at some point, this mysterious friend became a BK recruiter--C)

In 1995 he told me the story of a woman he had heard about. He told me that she was from a desert town in California, and once when she was sleeping on the floor of an attic room, a cockroach crawled over her foot. When she woke up, she was everything and nothing at the same time. He told me that it reminded him of the state described in Kashmir Shaivism, that Baba always used to talk about.

1 (1995 is one year before publication of Cry in the Desert. But BK has already got outreacher working on her behalf and they are patient in thier methods, as we are about to see. Its now 13 years after Muk has died. So in this intervening time, some connection has been made between persons in SY and BK.)

2 (Note: If you go to discussions by former SY people, may report being haunted and mystified by the intense experiences they had. Some have likened this to the cravings suffered long term by recovering addicts. And...many of them did not know that Muk had been friends with Werner Erhard and had used methods from EST in the Siddha yoga intensives. This is described in the AOL discussions of SY-C. So J's friend would know that a fellow devotee would have had longings Corboy)
I remember him telling me this story, and that I failed to see the point of the cockroach.

About a year later, 1996 I was on the phone with him again.

(Note, a year later BK was already in Holland in 1996, scheduled to do a workshop. And here is Janaki, in Holland. This means that even as early as 1996, the year she'd published Cry in the Desert, BK was already doing a workshop outside of the US, in a foreign country--the Netherlands. So..as early as 1996 she'd learned the skills needed to attract people able to afford such a trip, found a way to arrange some packaged accommodation in a hotel, get herself there ahead of time so she would not be jet lagged, etc. C)


He asked if I remembered him telling me about the lady with the cockroach.

?*(He asked J if she remembered. Was he testing to see if some sort of story driven trance induction had 'taken'? Corboy)

He told me that she was in Amsterdam, right as we spoke.

(How convenient--Corboy)

He said her name was Byron Katie and I should go and see her and take part in the workshop she was offering.

I told him that I never went to workshops of any kind, that my Guru was enough for me, even after his death, and the only exception I had made to this rule was a workshop by my dear friend, Willem de Ridder.

He kept insisting.

(Did he use Yes-Set? Corboy)

When I asked him what happened in her workshops, he told me she would ask you to judge someone.

(Deception--Corboy)

It became even less appealing after his description, but I said that I could call her, and ask if she would be interested in doing a tv interview with Willem for a local television talk show.

(So here's the lure. Janaki, bereaved from Muktananda's death, is feeling loyal to her Dutch teacher, Willem de Ridder. So, what more natural than to arrange an interview between her teacher and her friend's teacher--BK? Janaki divulges Willem's name and this enables the BK recruiter to incorporate Willem's image into the recruitment process, using him as a transitional object to switch Janaki from Willem's orbit, to get her to step into BK's parlor--for an 'interview'--which turns out to be a workshop. . Corboy

So I called her on the phone. She sounded sweet. She said she would love to do the interview and asked if I would come the next day to play, and I agreed.

(Shed love to do the interview--which turned out to be a workshop--Corboy)

When I got to the house in Amsterdam, I found myself in someone’s living room with about 20 people I didn’t know and didn’t want to know

I realized that I had come to the workshop after all.

(And Janaki did not feel lied to. She'd have had to question a valued friendship in order to face that this friend, who was a remaining link to her dead guru Muktananda, whom she still missed and mourned had lied to her and exploited the name of her current teacher, Willem, by coming up with the ruse of having Janaki make a personal visit to a BK workshop thinking its to be merely an arrangment to calender an interview between BK and Willem de Ritter.)

I was just coming out of a period of a severe depression, and socializing wasn’t my strong point in those days.

Later on, after Janaki was lured to this workshop, in 1998, there was an inteview of UG Krishnamurti, a renowned 'anti guru' that was conducted by both BK and Willem de Ridder.

Quote

Did you mean: byron katie "Willem de Ridder " Top 2 results shown

UG Krishnamurti - Interviewed by Willen de Ridder and Byron KatieUG Krishnammurti - Interviewed by Willen de Ridder and Byron Katie Amsterdam, Holland, 1998 More Information on U.G. Krishnamurti at ...
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3365741114567849357 - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
Genwi - UG Krishnamurti Interviewed by Willem de Ridder and Byron ...UG Krishnamurti Interviewed by Willem de Ridder and Byron Katie Amsterdam48 min 58 sec - Nov 18, 20061998 U.G. Krishnamurti, an enigma--a person who defies ...
www.genwi.com/play/424011 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

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[www.google.com]

This would have been a valuable way for BK to transition away from the woman christ in the desert figure she'd been in Cry in the Desert, toward the sorta nondual teacher image she re-crafted by 1998.

And a great way to get derivative legitimacy is to associate oneself with teachers already established, such as Willem de Ridder, use a person like Janaki to gain access to such teachers, then use a connection with Willem to then access someone like UG Krisnamurti, who shared a surname with the very much more famous Jiddu Krishnamurti.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2023 12:10AM by corboy.