HI everyone
I am relatively new here and I am trying to de-brainwash myself after having my life dominated by a guru based cult from age 18 to 30.
After I left my cult I tried to find out what true spirituality was. I went to groups incl Tolle and Course in Miracles and read new age books as well as some schools of psychotherapy.

I thought that Tolle for example was legit because he was properly published and recognised whereas my cult leaders writings were only accepted by our cult. I also thought Buddhist thought was legit and Tolle was pretty much re-dressing Buddhist principles. But now I find Im not sure what is true. Trying to be 'present' and step back from my 'life situation' has fed into the same habit I have from my cult of avoiding the world and judging all those who dont follow so called spiritual teachings. I feel I am being unspiritual if I am not doing something that seems either spiritual or of personal growth whether it be meditation, being in the moment, prayer, or trying to be peaceful.
All of this adds up to a lot of 'trying' and anxiety about not doing enough. But when is it enough? I am tired of feeling different from the everyday people around me like my neighbours etc. I would like to just be normal, but I am scared to death to be normal because that entails being attached to the world/in the maya - illusions of life etc etc
Or I imagine if I was normal, in Tolle terms, I would probably get more angry with people, think that my life was my life situation etc and take it all too seriously. I am afraid of being too identified with my life situation if I stop trying to be so spiritual.

I agree that CBT is a great tool. On the other hand, these belief systems have a logic of their own and I have found it hard to really be sure what is the truth. Afterall, I cant just ask God/Buddha or whoever and get a clear answer once and for all. I have to trust myself, my own feeling of things and I still feel too afraid of getting it wrong to do that.

pegasus

"Afterall, I cant just ask God/Buddha or whoever and get a clear answer once and for all."

I don't mean to be blunt but, who says you cant?


"I have to trust myself, my own feeling of things and I still feel too afraid of getting it wrong to do that. "

This is where I experienced the worst of the lingering effects of cult mentality too.
Fear of getting it wrong...and right..was overwhelming...it led me to mental and emotional atrophy, a state where i couldn't exist in my own right...i 'needed permission' to live.

For a while my mind, conditioned as it was, would believe everything I heard as fact..everything they said was right, everything I did was wrong etc... Its taken a a long time to stand up and say no...to pause before I take things in and to critically analyze information, ask questions and ask why.

It helped me in my deprogramming efforts to focus on working on fear itself, as that was the door they used to get around my own conscience, common sense and thinking.

Today I can accept and trust, that I'm human just like everyone else..and being human, i get it wrong a lot and am going to get it wrong a lot too...that that is just life and part of being a fallible human being.

I came to recognize that the expectation that i had to get 'it' right and be perfect according to their rules and concepts of perfection or die was a belief that had been impressed and imposed upon me...it was the primal fear that they preyed on...in the light of day though, its just a tool of the snake oil cons...once I recognized it as such, it lost its power in me.

I cant judge the snake for biting me..I picked it up, I am responsible for that choice, and thats what snakes do, they bite.....but I can learn from what happened to me and choose not to pick up any more snakes..thats the beauty about being 'just' human..we do learn...we can...we are.




best

blue

Welcome, pegasus. Keep reading and posting. It helps immensely! As I said, I am living proof that it's never too late. In the past month or so, I have gone through a variety of emotions from anger to fear and back. I think it's natural to feel adrift, after spending so many years believing things that I don't have faith in anymore. Perhaps we are not used to feeling so free; unfettered in such a huge world, after being in the tiny little world that was given to us to live in and believe in by others, for whatever their reasons. Some wanted my money, some wanted maybe just my membership to brag on, but whatever the reasons, they took advantage of the fact that I was vulnerable in my seeking. New boundaries need to be established, and that will take time, but things are looking better, brighter and BIGGER every day. What a huge place it is, when the blinders are removed. Scary, yes, but only until we get used to it. That's my take on this, in any case.

Its interesting about Eckhart Tolle, he is published by Hay House.
[www.hayhouse.com]

Obviously Hay House would do zero "fact checking" or anything else. Since its a New Age publisher, they basically don't believe in "facts", so whatever anyone writes is fine with them. For them, if you believe it, its real.

Even the large publishers will publish basically anything if it sells.

As a matter of fact, the big publishers basically do surveys to find out what people want to buy, and then construct books with titles that fit what people think they want to buy. (like, get rich quick with no effort, find love now, be happy now, etc)
So its all backwards.

Its just basically a big machine to move products. Look at Eckhart Tolle, in a large bookstore he has over 25 products for sale.
They just exploit the "impulse buy", and public trends.

Thanks, Anticult.

That's something I've been noticing, lately. I need to add it to my arsenal of defensive 'clothing', since the US is so very advertisement oriented. It's so mundane, but the love of the buck adds to the overall dilemma, doesn't it?

Best to you for the new year.

qd

That is a good point Anticult about the marketing and moneymaking aims; true just becos something is out there, everywhere doesnt mean its the truth.

Thanks for your welcome quackdave. Yes I am not used to being free to choose what I do or how I think. Also I was taught not to trust myself or my own sense of things so it was easy for me after coming out of my group to naturally look to other groups/teachers to tell me what the truth is. I am going thru my beliefs at the moment and trying to see what I know is true and what is brainwashing. I believe there is truth to be known, altho it may be different for different people but it is quite a struggle at the moment to sort out what it is for me. I am scared to choose for myself; I dont want to get it wrong but I absolutely can not trust any more teachers to decide for me which has to be a good thing...

Hey pegasus,

The struggling and fear and need to 'know the Truth' that you mention, sound to be remnants of the captivity we have escaped from. I see no hurry in any of this, anymore. The people who took advantage of my vulnerabilities put those burdens on me and I believe it's high time to shed them, like so many scabs on the skin. They were painful and now they're healing.

Life itself seems to teach me what's true, just in the living of it. There is no logical reason to be in a rush, so I don't see any reason for urgency other than the non-reasons given me by my former "guides", who I now look at more like "jail guards". They put this fear of 'getting it wrong' and urgently needing to 'choose' on me, basically to keep me under their power, and -- in the examples of Byron Katie and the like -- in their 'club' and paying their membership fees.

I guess what I'm saying is: Could it be that someone told you that you need to choose sides in the great spiritual dialogue, and perhaps warned you that choosing wrong would cost you your soul? That's what happened to me...many, many times. And I bought into it like thirsty man grabbing for what appeared to be a glass of untainted water.

qd

Quote
quackdave
There is no logical reason to be in a rush, so I don't see any reason for urgency other than the non-reasons given me by my former "guides", who I now look at more like "jail guards". They put this fear of 'getting it wrong' and urgently needing to 'choose' on me, basically to keep me under their power, and -- in the examples of Byron Katie and the like -- in their 'club' and paying their membership fees.

I guess what I'm saying is: Could it be that someone told you that you need to choose sides in the great spiritual dialogue, and perhaps warned you that choosing wrong would cost you your soul? That's what happened to me...many, many times. And I bought into it like thirsty man grabbing for what appeared to be a glass of untainted water.

qd

Yes -- this is what happened to me too. I was brought up Catholic, and taught that nonCatholics could not go to heaven. My grandparents and favorite uncle were condemned to Hell, or at least Purgatory/Limbo because they were Protestant, the nuns taught me. Never mind that they were the kindest, most honest people you'd ever want to meet, as well as being devout Christians. As a young adult, I joined a Bible study group, only to be told that the Catholics were heretics, and that I couldn't go to Heaven unless I became born-again -- being a good Catholic wasn't enough, according to them. A good friend became a Mormon, and apparently being born-again...or a good Catholic was not enough to get you to their heaven, or at least the higher levels. You had to become a Mormon. I later joined a Buddhist sect that said you had to follow their way -- and be devoted to their guru -- or you would never reach enlightenment and you'd create so much negative karma, that all kinds of horrible things would happen to you.

I have always been the kind of person who just wanted to get it right -- always give the right answer. In school this may be possible -- in real life, it is not, especially with religion. ALL the religions say that they are the only right one -- and that you will suffer if you don't devote yourself to the "right religion." Well, where is the evidence that one religion is the right one? If it really matters to God what religion we practice, why doesn't He just come down and TELL us to be Episcopalian, a Sunni Muslim, a Seventh Day Adventist or whatever?

I still would like to be certain, but I am slowly learning to live with not being certain. I remind myself, that suicide bombers and other fanatics and persecutors are VERY certain that they are doing the right thing -- and their certainty causes them to commit cruel, destructive acts that cause immense suffering. They would be far less likely to commit these atrocities if they did have some doubts and uncertainty.

Hi everyone

I have made some inroads into being more flexible on the need to know 'the truth' and I also see now that life teaches us as we go. I know now that we learn thru experiences and that way of learning necessitates 'not knowing', trying, experimenting, often getting it wrong and then adapting. I could see that for learning to ride a bicycle, say, but now I also see that a lot of other things are like that too. I slowly get to know more thru doing things and gaining insights and often doing things I dont like and then changing them. But I find now I cant work it all out in theory, I get better by practicing.

So that one is going quite well; I dont have to know everything now, (just most things! - kidding!)

The big one for me though is the problem of time. You are right, I did get that urgency from my cult, and I know that because I didnt have the sense of urgency before I joined, I used to have a normal attitude to doing what I wanted to do in life and exploring. However, this is tough one for me, I havent been able to see thru it yet.

On the positive side, I now see that if I act with that urgency, wanting to be spiritual and do the 'right' thing, I am in fact acting out of fear. I now think it can never be good to be acting from a place of fear; if there is a spiritual system of some kind, then being fearful can not in my book be a good thing. God would surely be loving and to be more like God I would be loving and peaceful too, not fearful.

But I do still think reincarnation makes sense for me (not necessarily for others, of course) and the general Buddhist philosophy (as long as it includes the part where you think for yourself, not the cult type Buddhist groups, naturally..).
So that being the case, my fears are revolved around suffering. What if I dont do enought in this life and end up coming back a lot and having a lot of suffering? I have had a good amount already and I really dont want a lot more. Like eating my greens, perhaps it makes sense to be a good person if I will avoid more pain later. Also perhaps I am meant to help others and if I relax I may not do what I was intended to do and they will suffer.

Ok I can see this is sounding a little extreme but I dont want to come back too much and suffer more.
Thats where I am right now. It is tricky, because having this belief still means I am disecting parts of my life and judging whats good and bad too much - that is a problem for me still. I hope I will find my own way of disputing it, and it would be great to hear more from you all too
Cheers
Pegasus

I posted the message below on the 29th of December, but since it still hasn't appeared here and there were apparent technical problems in this forum at that time, I'm reposting it now. Please don't let my few observations interrupt or distract your ongoing discussion. So here's what I had to say some time back:

Phew! I finally read this whole thread and I can tell you it took me two whole weeks working full time on it. Of course I did research links and some other stuff on this RR-site, and checked every piece of information on this thread that I could check by google.

Thanks everyone for this incredibly enlightening info that I could find through examining the things mentioned in this thread. For instance various techniques to manufacture mental confusion were useful; and especially useful were various personal experiences and their articulations. I feel like I’m finally getting my brain back to myself. So thanks.

Byron Katie’s face-lift was one of the things where there was no supporting evidence to be found. So that sort of thing would in my opinion be just rumour. Please don’t fall for rumouring.

But yes, there really is quite a lot of evidence to support the claim made in this thread that Byron Katie and her following crew are destroying any evidence that might make them seem less “enlightened and all-knowing and all-loving”.

For instance Carol L. Skolnick’s “Going to Work Naked: My Journey to Byron Katie” on her blog has been destroyed and is nowhere to be found any longer but on this site. I wonder, if it was cited in full here. Anyway at least pieces of it were cited and analyzed intelligently. Maybe that was too revealing. Maybe the new age business manipulators just can’t handle revealing information. They do want to rewrite history. They do want to change the facts, if it serves their cause. Just like any other dictators known in history.

And those people claim that they are the ones who are one with reality and everything. Well, it definitely seems to be the reality itself that they can’t handle at all.

So instead of living in reality and accepting reality as it is, they’re ready to change reality so that it fits their agenda. Extremely disgusting!

These new age gurus like Byron Katie are indeed very intelligent, but they are not superiorly intelligent. This one thread alone proves that. They may be able to lie to most people and they may be able to lie most of the time, but they cannot lie to everyone all the time.

I personally haven’t been involved in BK stuff, but still I found this thread very useful. It means there is valuable and general information here to be used and applied to many kinds of new age, spiritual, cultish, authoritarian circles and even personal experiences.

And anyone saying that he’s read this kind of very long thread in just a few hours or even a few days is lying. Also, there was one poster claiming to have skimmed this thread through, and then he was very eager to offer his own positive opinions about BK. One cannot just skim through this sort of information! It must be studied and studied properly. The BK/new age apologists don’t do that sort of thing.

And that’s where they’ll lose. There really seems to be some kind of spiritual war going on, at least in America, and everything seems to be spreading from the USA to Europe and then to the rest of the world. We better prepare ourselves with our genuine hearts and minds. We better be strong enough to not let those people to get their total control over everything.

That’s what it’s all about. Or am I mistaken here?