Byron Katie (the Work) and Stever Robbins NLP hypnosis
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 21, 2009 01:16AM
There is more new excellent information in the thread about "The Game" "Pickup Artists" and "The Seduction Community". [forum.culteducation.com]
That is a thread to watch.
They are doing the exact same techniques as described in this thread, only using a slightly different context. But its not that different, as its all about "seduction" and manipulation.
There are very specific techniques being used to manipulate people one-on-one, which is also how Byron Katie also works. Its not all just group LGAT's. There are many reports of what goes on with key people, in a one-on-one environment.
So the pick-up Guru's can help to explain some of the techniques being used by these persuaders.
But be very careful, do NOT buy any of their products, and do NOT believe their advertising claims. These are generally quite crafty and tricky people, who work on more than one level at a time.
But the techniques being used, are the same one's described in this thread.
And the advantage to looking at the pick-up Guru's, is that they are openly talking about the specific techniques, as they teach them to people at their seminars, like at advanced sales seminars.
Unlike the other NLP-persuasion experts, like Stever Robbins & Friends, who actively try to conceal the techniques, and try to act innocent, deaf, dumb, and blind, or hide behind a huge fake smile.
It truly is beyond unethical, and is pathetic, cowardly, and incredibly slimey to do this to everyday "soccer moms", and set people up to be taken advantage of by these Guru's, and then try to act innocent, when the expert knows EXACTLY and PRECISELY what is going on.
Its hard to put into words how disgusting that behavior is. They deliberately try to confuse people and make it overgeneralized and "fuzzy" with conscious misdirection, which is a specific technique. When in fact, they could explain everything that is happening right down to the highest level of specificity.
There is nothing worse than an expert wolf, trying to pathetically hide inside a sheep skin, and claim they are just an innocent lamb.
Janaki's conversion to Byron Katie, hypnosis [forum.culteducation.com]
That is a thread to watch.
They are doing the exact same techniques as described in this thread, only using a slightly different context. But its not that different, as its all about "seduction" and manipulation.
There are very specific techniques being used to manipulate people one-on-one, which is also how Byron Katie also works. Its not all just group LGAT's. There are many reports of what goes on with key people, in a one-on-one environment.
So the pick-up Guru's can help to explain some of the techniques being used by these persuaders.
But be very careful, do NOT buy any of their products, and do NOT believe their advertising claims. These are generally quite crafty and tricky people, who work on more than one level at a time.
But the techniques being used, are the same one's described in this thread.
And the advantage to looking at the pick-up Guru's, is that they are openly talking about the specific techniques, as they teach them to people at their seminars, like at advanced sales seminars.
Unlike the other NLP-persuasion experts, like Stever Robbins & Friends, who actively try to conceal the techniques, and try to act innocent, deaf, dumb, and blind, or hide behind a huge fake smile.
It truly is beyond unethical, and is pathetic, cowardly, and incredibly slimey to do this to everyday "soccer moms", and set people up to be taken advantage of by these Guru's, and then try to act innocent, when the expert knows EXACTLY and PRECISELY what is going on.
Its hard to put into words how disgusting that behavior is. They deliberately try to confuse people and make it overgeneralized and "fuzzy" with conscious misdirection, which is a specific technique. When in fact, they could explain everything that is happening right down to the highest level of specificity.
There is nothing worse than an expert wolf, trying to pathetically hide inside a sheep skin, and claim they are just an innocent lamb.
Janaki's conversion to Byron Katie, hypnosis [forum.culteducation.com]
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 21, 2009 06:40AM
'Janaki's conversion to Byron Katie, hypnosis'
Something that struck me, reading about Stephen Mitchell and his being dazzled by BK's sparkly eyes on the first meeting--where have we heard that before?--- and later something I read on BK's blog when she was talking about her cancer.
"Anyway, my husband and my sons cannot be upset, my daughter cannot be upset, they really don’t know what they are supposed to feel and until they do, they don’t."
BK blog
Essentially she said that neither Stephen, her sons and her daughter would know what to feel about BK having cancer, an odd statement, until I thought: perhaps she means that they will not know what to feel until BK tells them what to feel?
Does this woman ever take a rest from the sparkly eyes induction?
Stephen Mitchells nonsense about the eastern approach being better than western therapy is just that, nonsense. The eastern approach is an immersion, taking years, in a completely different culture and worldview.
Very few ever reach the point of 'beyond the root of suffering' those few that do are often not functional and become recluses as the state is difficult to maintain in any normal environment.
The attrition rate (casualties) is atrocious.
The eastern approach demands a total, lifetime commitment, not a few days in a LGAT.
To integrate the 'beyond the root of suffering' state takes further years of slow, slow work.
The state itself wipes out all ambition and accepted values--very tricky to handle for western people whose different values have been hardwired and are viewed and constantly reinforced as essential in the culture. They often find themselves in opposition to all that western society and culture promotes as good and worthy.
BK's questions serve to undermine and strip the individual identity, the fundamental basis of personhood. There is no slow process of building a base to support this radical change, there is no mention of the years of effort required to deal with this radical change of worldview and its integration.
BK's techniques are destructive and she offers nothing to replace what she so easily destroys--except more and more costly LGATS with more destructive techniques and a heavyweight and expensive hypnotic dependence on herself.
Western therapy at its best aims to return the person to his own life with a greater understanding and functionality.
BK is looking for followers to feed her power needs and keep the cash flowing in.
Something that struck me, reading about Stephen Mitchell and his being dazzled by BK's sparkly eyes on the first meeting--where have we heard that before?--- and later something I read on BK's blog when she was talking about her cancer.
"Anyway, my husband and my sons cannot be upset, my daughter cannot be upset, they really don’t know what they are supposed to feel and until they do, they don’t."
BK blog
Essentially she said that neither Stephen, her sons and her daughter would know what to feel about BK having cancer, an odd statement, until I thought: perhaps she means that they will not know what to feel until BK tells them what to feel?
Does this woman ever take a rest from the sparkly eyes induction?
Stephen Mitchells nonsense about the eastern approach being better than western therapy is just that, nonsense. The eastern approach is an immersion, taking years, in a completely different culture and worldview.
Very few ever reach the point of 'beyond the root of suffering' those few that do are often not functional and become recluses as the state is difficult to maintain in any normal environment.
The attrition rate (casualties) is atrocious.
The eastern approach demands a total, lifetime commitment, not a few days in a LGAT.
To integrate the 'beyond the root of suffering' state takes further years of slow, slow work.
The state itself wipes out all ambition and accepted values--very tricky to handle for western people whose different values have been hardwired and are viewed and constantly reinforced as essential in the culture. They often find themselves in opposition to all that western society and culture promotes as good and worthy.
BK's questions serve to undermine and strip the individual identity, the fundamental basis of personhood. There is no slow process of building a base to support this radical change, there is no mention of the years of effort required to deal with this radical change of worldview and its integration.
BK's techniques are destructive and she offers nothing to replace what she so easily destroys--except more and more costly LGATS with more destructive techniques and a heavyweight and expensive hypnotic dependence on herself.
Western therapy at its best aims to return the person to his own life with a greater understanding and functionality.
BK is looking for followers to feed her power needs and keep the cash flowing in.
Byron Katie, NLP, "Pickup Artists", Ross Jeffries, Stever Robbins
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 22, 2009 09:25AM
"Pickup Artists" and "The Seduction Community" [forum.culteducation.com]
A couple more points about this.
If anyone can find a TRANSCRIPT of what Ross Jeffries said to the girl, what he did with his language patterns can be PRECISELY described. But to be honest, looking at that creep, its too much to even watch that charade again. Its all very sad and pathetic, how low the old NLP-hypno-persuaders have sunk with this.
But its not staged.
But Ross Jeffries did pick the location, and the guy at the table as the camera arrives, could have been one of Ross Jeffries stooges/assistants. He would just cruise the joint for a few hours, trying to find people who are Suggestible and open.
And then he would watch for the camera, and go to the Target's table to show Ross Jeffries a good "mark" who is suggestible.
That girl could have been put into a light trance by an amateur in seconds.
But that is not even needed, an expert can tell in seconds who is "open" and suggestible.
But Ross Jeffries just walks up to her, and using verbal commands and a rapid induction, elicits and gets her to re-experience some of her most pleasurable emotions and memories.
He then would have done a lot more stuff that was not in the clip, to reinforce and bring it out even more.
Then once the emotions and memories are being experienced in her mind, he creates a Trigger and Anchor, this time to his own finger, so he can use the sense of TOUCH later on.
Then running his finger up her arm, he can take that pleasureable feeling from 1-10, pretty much on his command.
(remember how Byron Katie touched Janaki's cheek, same thing).
What is really shocking about this, is that this part is very very basic stuff, that anyone can learn in a day, if they have the aptitude.
It can be done with fake "palm reading", it can be done with storytelling, Tarot Cards, Astrology, anything. It can be done using "Advaita" as the ruse "content".
Its also decades old, and has been in books for decades.
What is shocking, is why is the public so unaware of even the basics of any of this?
If someone could explain that, that would be appreciated.
Once a person has some experience and training, none of that twaddle even works. You see in 5 seconds that some creepy salesperson is trying to elicit the modalities of your most pleasurable life experiences, and then link it to herself, or her product and services.
And you say, hey asshole, why are you trying to elicit my most pleasurable memories and emotions? Screw off.
Even the hyperbole by Louis Theroux at the end, seems very melodramatic.
You could take a hypnotist and find a "Target" and have them dancing like a chicken in the street, that has been known for decades. Especially when a TV CAMERA is there.
Its nothing magical, its just suggestion, and many people just do what is asked of them, without much preparation. Inducing light trance-states just makes it more effective.
So Ross Jeffries is a slime, maniupulating people (women and men) to make money.
But he is actually LESS slimey than many others. At least he ADMITS to SOME of what he is doing.
Hate to bring up Stever Robbins again, but he is far far worse, as he is trying to act naive. Its 100X worse, to have far far more extensive knowledge than little ole Ross Jeffries, and then try to PRETEND it does NOT EXIST, and then refer and send "new age" people into the ruthless hands of experts who are far worse than Ross Jeffries.
They can use those same techniques to anchor into people to feel SUPREME PLEASURE to giving them ALL OF THEIR LIFE-SAVINGS, or their WEDDING RINGS, or anything else. (Read the Byron Katie thread).
They can make you feel like they are a divine being, by activating your "God-Guru" representations in your mind, and then linking them to themselves.
They can elicit how you represent a Soulmate, and link it to them too.
They can also stack, merge, amplify, and constantly reinforce all of these, to the point where they become the center of their subjects mind and life.
So these sociopaths and manipulators do laugh like Ross Jeffries, at how naive and suggestible many people are. They think its funny, and they believe people get what they deserve.
They even lie to themselves, and tell themselves they are doing a service.
But this is why they try so hard to MISDIRECT, and say there is NOTHING GOING ON. Because once people get trained, it doesn't work. You see through it in seconds.
So yes, the sociopaths are wrong to do this to people.
But can anyone shed some light on why so many people don't know anything about even the most basic manipulation tactics like this?
Is it that most people are just regular too-trusting people, and are not used to dancing with the wolves, who present themselves as sheep?
To the trained eye, the question is not why do the sharks do it, its why can't anyone see what is there in plain-sight?
Byron Katie very blatantly uses many of the same techniques on groups and on individuals, and just tries to conceal it behind the new agey pseudo-philosophy.
The people who admit they do some techniques, are not anywhere near as bad, as those who try to pretend nothing is going on. Those one are the most damaging.
And the more they play the idiot savant or try to act naive, the worse they are.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2009 09:33AM by The Anticult.
Quote
Stoic
I then watched this clip which I think is Jeffries with a better personal image, demonstrating his technique to Louis Theroux. This doesn't look at all staged to me and the induction is quite slick. I assume there is a post-hypnotic suggestion planted for the girl seems to follow the two men the way a lost duckling will follow any moving object.
pick-up in action
A couple more points about this.
If anyone can find a TRANSCRIPT of what Ross Jeffries said to the girl, what he did with his language patterns can be PRECISELY described. But to be honest, looking at that creep, its too much to even watch that charade again. Its all very sad and pathetic, how low the old NLP-hypno-persuaders have sunk with this.
But its not staged.
But Ross Jeffries did pick the location, and the guy at the table as the camera arrives, could have been one of Ross Jeffries stooges/assistants. He would just cruise the joint for a few hours, trying to find people who are Suggestible and open.
And then he would watch for the camera, and go to the Target's table to show Ross Jeffries a good "mark" who is suggestible.
That girl could have been put into a light trance by an amateur in seconds.
But that is not even needed, an expert can tell in seconds who is "open" and suggestible.
But Ross Jeffries just walks up to her, and using verbal commands and a rapid induction, elicits and gets her to re-experience some of her most pleasurable emotions and memories.
He then would have done a lot more stuff that was not in the clip, to reinforce and bring it out even more.
Then once the emotions and memories are being experienced in her mind, he creates a Trigger and Anchor, this time to his own finger, so he can use the sense of TOUCH later on.
Then running his finger up her arm, he can take that pleasureable feeling from 1-10, pretty much on his command.
(remember how Byron Katie touched Janaki's cheek, same thing).
What is really shocking about this, is that this part is very very basic stuff, that anyone can learn in a day, if they have the aptitude.
It can be done with fake "palm reading", it can be done with storytelling, Tarot Cards, Astrology, anything. It can be done using "Advaita" as the ruse "content".
Its also decades old, and has been in books for decades.
What is shocking, is why is the public so unaware of even the basics of any of this?
If someone could explain that, that would be appreciated.
Once a person has some experience and training, none of that twaddle even works. You see in 5 seconds that some creepy salesperson is trying to elicit the modalities of your most pleasurable life experiences, and then link it to herself, or her product and services.
And you say, hey asshole, why are you trying to elicit my most pleasurable memories and emotions? Screw off.
Even the hyperbole by Louis Theroux at the end, seems very melodramatic.
You could take a hypnotist and find a "Target" and have them dancing like a chicken in the street, that has been known for decades. Especially when a TV CAMERA is there.
Its nothing magical, its just suggestion, and many people just do what is asked of them, without much preparation. Inducing light trance-states just makes it more effective.
So Ross Jeffries is a slime, maniupulating people (women and men) to make money.
But he is actually LESS slimey than many others. At least he ADMITS to SOME of what he is doing.
Hate to bring up Stever Robbins again, but he is far far worse, as he is trying to act naive. Its 100X worse, to have far far more extensive knowledge than little ole Ross Jeffries, and then try to PRETEND it does NOT EXIST, and then refer and send "new age" people into the ruthless hands of experts who are far worse than Ross Jeffries.
They can use those same techniques to anchor into people to feel SUPREME PLEASURE to giving them ALL OF THEIR LIFE-SAVINGS, or their WEDDING RINGS, or anything else. (Read the Byron Katie thread).
They can make you feel like they are a divine being, by activating your "God-Guru" representations in your mind, and then linking them to themselves.
They can elicit how you represent a Soulmate, and link it to them too.
They can also stack, merge, amplify, and constantly reinforce all of these, to the point where they become the center of their subjects mind and life.
So these sociopaths and manipulators do laugh like Ross Jeffries, at how naive and suggestible many people are. They think its funny, and they believe people get what they deserve.
They even lie to themselves, and tell themselves they are doing a service.
But this is why they try so hard to MISDIRECT, and say there is NOTHING GOING ON. Because once people get trained, it doesn't work. You see through it in seconds.
So yes, the sociopaths are wrong to do this to people.
But can anyone shed some light on why so many people don't know anything about even the most basic manipulation tactics like this?
Is it that most people are just regular too-trusting people, and are not used to dancing with the wolves, who present themselves as sheep?
To the trained eye, the question is not why do the sharks do it, its why can't anyone see what is there in plain-sight?
Byron Katie very blatantly uses many of the same techniques on groups and on individuals, and just tries to conceal it behind the new agey pseudo-philosophy.
The people who admit they do some techniques, are not anywhere near as bad, as those who try to pretend nothing is going on. Those one are the most damaging.
And the more they play the idiot savant or try to act naive, the worse they are.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2009 09:33AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie, NLP, "Pickup Artists", Ross Jeffries, Stever Robbins
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 22, 2009 09:45AM
and Stever Robbins would know all about Ross Jeffries and the NLP applications of hypnosis to "seduction". Its the exact same techniques used by many of the LGAT guru's, but just focussed on your purse.
Here is a webpage where they mention that Ross Jeffries was at the advanced NLP workshop with Richard Bandler, where Bandler recommended him.
Stever Robbins constantly talks about how he works with Richard Bandler and John LaValle.
The entire field is just crawling with weasels.
And that is why they are trying to jump ship, and play dumb, act innocent, and move into the New Age area, where the serious money is.
_______________________________
[www.steverrobbins.com]
QUOTE: "Review of Richard Bandler and John LaValle's 1998 Meta-Master Track
Well-Known Attendees:
Roye Frasier, Ross Jeffries, Joseph Riggio, Doug O'Brien, & Chris Mulzer (amongst others)!
Richard & John took ample time pointing out the work/accomplishments of these folks, and how people should take advantage of the opportunity to learn from them while they were there! As far as I could tell, all of the above and more were VERY generous with their time and ideas with the other participants. Richard even gave special mention to Ross Jeffries because he felt Ross' "mos grandez huevos" were worth modelling!
_____________________________
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2009 09:48AM by The Anticult.
Here is a webpage where they mention that Ross Jeffries was at the advanced NLP workshop with Richard Bandler, where Bandler recommended him.
Stever Robbins constantly talks about how he works with Richard Bandler and John LaValle.
The entire field is just crawling with weasels.
And that is why they are trying to jump ship, and play dumb, act innocent, and move into the New Age area, where the serious money is.
_______________________________
[www.steverrobbins.com]
QUOTE: "Review of Richard Bandler and John LaValle's 1998 Meta-Master Track
Well-Known Attendees:
Roye Frasier, Ross Jeffries, Joseph Riggio, Doug O'Brien, & Chris Mulzer (amongst others)!
Richard & John took ample time pointing out the work/accomplishments of these folks, and how people should take advantage of the opportunity to learn from them while they were there! As far as I could tell, all of the above and more were VERY generous with their time and ideas with the other participants. Richard even gave special mention to Ross Jeffries because he felt Ross' "mos grandez huevos" were worth modelling!
_____________________________
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2009 09:48AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie, NLP, "Pickup Artists", Ross Jeffries, Stever Robbins
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 22, 2009 10:01AM
MANIPULATION 101 by Stever Robbins.
Notice below:
- PRE-FRAME the debate so objections are IMPOSSIBLE
- non-verbal signals to trigger emotions
- lock people into your point of view, even if they disagree.
This is not even the tip of the iceberg with this guy, and he is using those methods currently trying to confuse his connection with Byron Katie and others.
Byron Katie uses all of the methods listed below, and many more.
_________QUOTE excerpt for analysis_____________________
[www.steverrobbins.com]
Manipulation 101: Advancing your agenda when logic fails
Have you ever won an argument with logic? [...]
That's because human beings aren't rational -- they're emotional. And learning the rules of emotion is the only sure-fire way to align, motivate, and bring people to agreement when pursuing a larger vision. This presentation will give you tools from linguistics and cognitive & social psychology you can use to advance your agenda within your company, industry, and life.
Come learn:
How to create commitment and buy-in to your agenda that gets stronger over time.
How to use non-verbal signals to trigger emotional responses in your listeners.
How to present your case in ways that lock people into your point of view, even if they disagree.
How to "pre-frame" the debate so that objections are impossible.
_______________________________________________
Notice below:
- PRE-FRAME the debate so objections are IMPOSSIBLE
- non-verbal signals to trigger emotions
- lock people into your point of view, even if they disagree.
This is not even the tip of the iceberg with this guy, and he is using those methods currently trying to confuse his connection with Byron Katie and others.
Byron Katie uses all of the methods listed below, and many more.
_________QUOTE excerpt for analysis_____________________
[www.steverrobbins.com]
Manipulation 101: Advancing your agenda when logic fails
Have you ever won an argument with logic? [...]
That's because human beings aren't rational -- they're emotional. And learning the rules of emotion is the only sure-fire way to align, motivate, and bring people to agreement when pursuing a larger vision. This presentation will give you tools from linguistics and cognitive & social psychology you can use to advance your agenda within your company, industry, and life.
Come learn:
How to create commitment and buy-in to your agenda that gets stronger over time.
How to use non-verbal signals to trigger emotional responses in your listeners.
How to present your case in ways that lock people into your point of view, even if they disagree.
How to "pre-frame" the debate so that objections are impossible.
_______________________________________________
Re: Byron Katie, NLP, "Pickup Artists", Ross Jeffries, Stever Robbins
Posted by:
Christa
()
Date: July 22, 2009 02:45PM
Quote
The Anticult
Hate to bring up Stever Robbins again, but he is far far worse, as he is trying to act naive.
Oh, I don't think it's possible bring up Stever Robbins too much. But we've never talked about his most perplexing characteristic: his degrees from 2 of the best universities in the world, degrees that should enable him to earn real, serious money doing honest work. And I mean the biggest possible money. Yet he's involved in this chicanery. It doesn't make any sense AT ALL.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 22, 2009 07:22PM
'his degrees from 2 of the best universities in the world'
I think its a mistake to equate 'highly educated' with 'highly ethical.' The latter is not an automatic follow-on from the former.
The highly educated business person/salesman is going to be infinitely more devious due to his greater education unless he has an equally highly developed ethical code.
Sales and business are about winning over the competition and ethics are usually the first thing to be jettisoned when profit is at stake.
A good rule of thumb is to look at what they do, not listen to what they say.
I think its a mistake to equate 'highly educated' with 'highly ethical.' The latter is not an automatic follow-on from the former.
The highly educated business person/salesman is going to be infinitely more devious due to his greater education unless he has an equally highly developed ethical code.
Sales and business are about winning over the competition and ethics are usually the first thing to be jettisoned when profit is at stake.
A good rule of thumb is to look at what they do, not listen to what they say.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 22, 2009 07:39PM
So true.Quote
corboy
Whoever pushes those release of liability forms is not someone Loving What Is.
You guys, I have actually been busy having a life -- thus my not participating in this thread so much.
It so happens I am writing a book about, among other things, stuff I've been through in new-wagey waters.
Writing up my experiences is proving very therapeutic.
Iow, I am getting A LOT out of embracing MY STORY.
:-)
Re: Byron Katie, NLP, "Pickup Artists", Ross Jeffries, Stever Robbins
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 22, 2009 09:56PM
Quote
ChristaQuote
The Anticult
Hate to bring up Stever Robbins again, but he is far far worse, as he is trying to act naive.
Oh, I don't think it's possible bring up Stever Robbins too much. But we've never talked about his most perplexing characteristic: his degrees from 2 of the best universities in the world, ...
Regarding Stever Robbins degrees, not sure having an MBA makes someone behave ethically?
;-)
Quite the contrary, those MBA types can be the worst, as its all about the PROFITS.
Just because someone has a fancy degree, or even an MD, does not mean they are ethical, especially if they try to hide behind it like a fig-leaf.
But its his involvement with the ridiculous "Coach University" and "Executive Coaching Institute and Success Dynamics" along with the decades in NLP persuasion, which is even more relevant.
The fact is that its BECAUSE he is an intelligent person, is what makes it so bad.
He would be able to see what is going on as clear as the moon in the sky in a clear night. He sees what is happening top to bottom.
But he tries to play innocent and naive, when at the same time he is selling some of the very same advanced manipulation persuasion information on his own website, and is promoting outrageous "coaches" like a Steve "No $150K Refund" Hardison.
Does he think people are that stupid?
What about the cognitive dissonance? Is that also a deliberate tactic?
The intellectual arrogance of some of the NLPers is really outrageous, they are used to getting away with almost anything. The old method of the NLPers was to show off one's intellectual skill, but most people find that threatening. So now some of them are trying to do the opposite, and trying to play innocent and naive, to make people feel at ease.
It is like if there are shark infested waters, and Stever Robbins is an oceanologist, and is standing on the beach telling the public...THE WATER IS FINE, its SAFE, its warm, go in for a swim and get Enlightened by the wonderful warm waters. And people go into the shark infested waters and get completely taken apart in minutes.
That is how powerful these techniques have become.
The fact that he would know exactly what's going on, from the persuasion levels, to the business levels, to the LGAT levels, makes it far worse than a simple True Believer, who may not be able to see all of the processes at play.
Who is worse, the shark, or the shark-expert who knows all about the sharks, but sends the public into shark infested waters, while consciously misdirecting them?
Its the deceptive shark-expert who is far worse.
Far worse than a Ross Jeffries, who at least on some level admits he is a manipulator.
And every one of the senior advanced NLP persuaders, has all kinds of information for sale, that they are not going to openly post on a website. They all have monographs and materials they use in private consulting, which are customized for their clients, and cost many 10's of thousands of dollars, where they really tell it like it is, without the politically correct fluff words.
Why is the above program for sale called... Manipulation 101?
Because that means its only a mere introductory course, with many advanced courses to follow.
People who are that manipulative, every word they say has to be double-checked. Any "phone-coaching" would have to be taped, and then checked by a trained 3rd party, to see what kind of "metaphors" and stories, and tactics they are using on a meta-level on you. The average person would have no clue of what is going on.
One would have to be nuts to go to people like this for "coaching", you have no idea of what they are going to try to do to you, as its all happening outside your conscious awareness.
They are experts in conscious misdirection, creating confusion, information overload, and many techniques to occupy the conscious mind, while the persuasion happens on an unconscious level.
That is what this thread is all about.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 22, 2009 10:19PM
In Recognition of Our Manipulability Lies Our True Power
We are socialized in the US to value autonomy, and refuse to consider how manipulable we actually are.
But...here is a way to see that covert influence does affect our decision making.
Look in your closet.
Look what you have in your house and recall the last time you caved in and let the kids nag you into feeding them something that you know is bad for them.
Just ask the average citizen--have you EVER purchased something
you regretted purchasing, had no intention of purchasing, but did end up purchasing
after having listened to a salesperson who talked you out of your determination?
You were affected by a technology of covert influence.
People go to workshops to learn this.
Ever battle with your kids who demand some item that they'll be bored with
in a month, but they want it just because they've seen it in the media, or all their
friends are eating it or have one?
Covert social influence strikes again.
In fact, we have known for some time that the creeps in advertising know about
what they call the 'pester factor' or 'pester effect' when kids nag tired or guilt ridden
parents to get them something.
So the advertisements are deliberately aimed at children.
Well, there remains a child within us, a tiny neurological kernal within each one of us, left over from childhood, just the way we all have a belly button.
Education, social sophistication, intellect--none of this eradicates that inner child.
Elie Weisel, conscience of our generation was one of the people finanally ripped off by charismatic Bernie Madoff.
That (the neurological kernal, not our bellybutton) is exactly what is aimed at by the technicians of covert influence--whether its to sell us stuff we dont need, or getting us horny for them when we attend their guru shows or go to bars or parties.
And...covert methods of social influence leave nothing in the victims bloodstream that can be identified on a toxicology screening panel of tests. You cant bust someone for it, the way you can arrest someone for putting a date rape drug or LSD into someone's drink.
But people, despite buying stuff they do not need, in response to technology of covert influence, refuse to belive we are each vulnerable enough to be affected.
That is why Stanley Milgram's Obedience to Authority Experiements and Philip Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment are so often ignored.
If we could liken the spiritual quest to boarding an airplace, I wish our hypothetical flight attendant could begin by giving a passenger safety tutorial and walk people through those two famous/infamous experiments.**
The 'marks' who are sought out by these speed seducers, whether they are "gurus" or bums in bars, unknowingly collude, because they have been socialized (preconditoned by society!) to disbelieve that it is even possible to be covertly influenced by someone who has the right technique--and has figured out a way to do selective recruitment and identify those persons who are trance inducible.
Our collective relucatance to consider this possible, and our mistaken belief that we are
fully autonomous beings and impervious to social influence, are the ways we unwittingly
collude (againt our wills) with the crooks doing this. We dont want to believe what they
do is possible, because that threatens our self image.
.
**Note about the Milgram and Zimbardo experiments(These experiments were never repeated. The American Psychological Association was so perturbed by the potential risks for subjects that they made ethical guidelines protecting subjects so much more strict that the Milgram and Zimbardo experiments could never be replicated.
But outside in society at large, non academics could do rogue 'experiments' because the ethical guidelines of the APA did not apply to them.
Must mention a professor told me he knew Stanley Milgram and ran into Professor M in the hallway, just before Milgram did the Obedience experiments. Milgram was carrying a cardboard box full of the forms and protocols he was about to use in the Obedience expermiment. My professor asked, 'Hey Stanley what's in the box?' Milgram made a non committal grunt, and looked evasive.
'He knew, even then, that he was about to do something big' my informant said. 'He didnt want that information leaked. And...I'd have done the same thing in his place. That experiment did make history.')
We are socialized in the US to value autonomy, and refuse to consider how manipulable we actually are.
But...here is a way to see that covert influence does affect our decision making.
Look in your closet.
Look what you have in your house and recall the last time you caved in and let the kids nag you into feeding them something that you know is bad for them.
Just ask the average citizen--have you EVER purchased something
you regretted purchasing, had no intention of purchasing, but did end up purchasing
after having listened to a salesperson who talked you out of your determination?
You were affected by a technology of covert influence.
People go to workshops to learn this.
Ever battle with your kids who demand some item that they'll be bored with
in a month, but they want it just because they've seen it in the media, or all their
friends are eating it or have one?
Covert social influence strikes again.
In fact, we have known for some time that the creeps in advertising know about
what they call the 'pester factor' or 'pester effect' when kids nag tired or guilt ridden
parents to get them something.
So the advertisements are deliberately aimed at children.
Well, there remains a child within us, a tiny neurological kernal within each one of us, left over from childhood, just the way we all have a belly button.
Education, social sophistication, intellect--none of this eradicates that inner child.
Elie Weisel, conscience of our generation was one of the people finanally ripped off by charismatic Bernie Madoff.
That (the neurological kernal, not our bellybutton) is exactly what is aimed at by the technicians of covert influence--whether its to sell us stuff we dont need, or getting us horny for them when we attend their guru shows or go to bars or parties.
And...covert methods of social influence leave nothing in the victims bloodstream that can be identified on a toxicology screening panel of tests. You cant bust someone for it, the way you can arrest someone for putting a date rape drug or LSD into someone's drink.
But people, despite buying stuff they do not need, in response to technology of covert influence, refuse to belive we are each vulnerable enough to be affected.
That is why Stanley Milgram's Obedience to Authority Experiements and Philip Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment are so often ignored.
If we could liken the spiritual quest to boarding an airplace, I wish our hypothetical flight attendant could begin by giving a passenger safety tutorial and walk people through those two famous/infamous experiments.**
The 'marks' who are sought out by these speed seducers, whether they are "gurus" or bums in bars, unknowingly collude, because they have been socialized (preconditoned by society!) to disbelieve that it is even possible to be covertly influenced by someone who has the right technique--and has figured out a way to do selective recruitment and identify those persons who are trance inducible.
Our collective relucatance to consider this possible, and our mistaken belief that we are
fully autonomous beings and impervious to social influence, are the ways we unwittingly
collude (againt our wills) with the crooks doing this. We dont want to believe what they
do is possible, because that threatens our self image.
.
**Note about the Milgram and Zimbardo experiments(These experiments were never repeated. The American Psychological Association was so perturbed by the potential risks for subjects that they made ethical guidelines protecting subjects so much more strict that the Milgram and Zimbardo experiments could never be replicated.
But outside in society at large, non academics could do rogue 'experiments' because the ethical guidelines of the APA did not apply to them.
Must mention a professor told me he knew Stanley Milgram and ran into Professor M in the hallway, just before Milgram did the Obedience experiments. Milgram was carrying a cardboard box full of the forms and protocols he was about to use in the Obedience expermiment. My professor asked, 'Hey Stanley what's in the box?' Milgram made a non committal grunt, and looked evasive.
'He knew, even then, that he was about to do something big' my informant said. 'He didnt want that information leaked. And...I'd have done the same thing in his place. That experiment did make history.')
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