Well, not to go off-topic or anything, just 2 cents from this side of the fence.
Contrary to what most cults teach, disagreement, and vigorous disagreement is very healthy.

There was some criticism of this thread that only ONE point-of-view is tolerated, and that is just not true. Its a deliberate falsehood.
There are many points of view in it, for those who actually read it.

And the moderator seems to let almost any BK promoter post all sorts of cheerleading for BK...to a point. Where the moderator seems to step in generally, is when there is pretty outrageous abuse, trolling, advertising, personal insults, and the rest of it.
It has to be moderated otherwise, various cultists could send 5 people to a thread, and completely wreck it with nonsense and spam.

But as far as information/knowledge is power, etc, that really is just a semantic issue, right?
Maybe the term "applied knowledge" is better?
But information is very powerful, as just the act of reading a thread like this full of FACTS and EVIDENCE, is very powerful in terms of cognition.

That is why the approach of some of the BK apologists, like Stever Robbins, is to try to distort, reframe, deny, and even call it "noise" and try to encourage people NOT look at it, or Preframe it.
Stever Robbins has an entire Byron Katie The Work section on his blog here, which needs to be dealt with [blog.steverrobbins.com]

And its very easy to misread plain-text, and miscommunicate.
But open intellectual debate, based on facts and evidence is essential. And lies need to be openly pointed out.
A "Tolerance for Ambiguity" is essential.

But there is no ambiguity with BK & Co.
Of course, the problem with BK & Co, is they EXPLOIT the "have an open mind, try it for yourself" stuff.
That becomes a bait & switch mental-trap. And many people are exploited by that "soft persuasion" where people use permissive techniques to soften people up.
They use tiny weasel words, to get a foot in the door of the mind, and slowly work it.
This stuff is very tricky, that is for sure.

and everyone makes mistakes of course.

Except The Legendary Steve Hardison of course.
He says he won a contest in 1980 after all. And, this might be off-topic a bit, but it can't be helped. If he were really making millions a year Coaching, would he not get a more expensive hair-plug job? [www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
And also perhaps cut-back a bit on the home teeth whitener, that damages the teeth enamel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 06:58AM by The Anticult.

Along with NO REFUNDS, and hundreds of thousands of dollars paid up-front (preferably in cash or broken gold), that is possibly also a good warning sign, for a "bad coach".
If they own one expensive suit, have a cheap hair-plug job, and their teeth are 5 shades whiter than their shirts.

'This stuff is very tricky, that is for sure.'

Certainly is, and the first priority must be self-protection from these ruthless types, however you decide to protect yourself.

Something to bear in mind though, was something mentioned in Meadow's post on the Caplan book and 'The Guru Papers':

'Quote:
“The dangers of mystical experience and of ego’s tendency toward self-deception become magnified and have ever-increasing implications when one begins to interact with others on the basis of the presumption of enlightenment.”'

Although BK may seem to be getting away with her scam at the moment, the ego delusions have a tendency to increase, get out of control and eventually seem to produce some kind of melt-down in the power seeker.

Len Oakes wrote a good book, 'Prophetic Charisma', which examined twenty or so cult leaders of quite small obscure groups, looking at their psychological make-up and concluded that the delusions themselves brought about the cult leader's eventual downfall.
A bit cheering, if not the swift justice deserved.

"And no one on earth even knows what the freaking human mind really "is", but it certainly its the most astonishing thing known in the universe. "

Hi Anticult, I think that this part of your statement can be misleading, "And no one on earth even knows what the freaking human mind really "is". You think, and you have thoughts and sometimes people can ask you "what's on your mind". Your thinking and your thought's are. Or maybe sometime's "nothing really" can be an answer. I actually think the question "what is mind" is kind of dumb. And can be very misleading.

Hi folks. As a long time lurker, I've hesitated to post because a) I'm still working my way through the massive amount of information presented in this thread, and b) I hold some alternative views on Byron Katie that may not be welcome here.

The Anticult recently wrote that "vigorous disagreement is very healthy." I happen to concur, and in that spirit, I'd like to share a few thoughts. I hope you'll give me the benefit of the doubt and not automatically assume I'm a BK shill, a troll, or a brainwashed cultist.

I've made a lifelong study of the mystics, and it seems to me that Byron Katie's message is consistent with what sages have been saying for millennia. Namely, that it is possible (albeit difficult) for a person to attain an unshakable state of "peace that passeth understanding."

This is not a New Age concept. It is thousands of years old, pre-dating the Hindu's Nirvana, the Buddhist's Satori, and the Christian/Jew/Muslim's God-Realization. It is the Perennial Philosophy that weaves its way through the mystical traditions of every major religion.

Some of you have expressed doubt that such a state of grace is possible, and who can blame you? After all, it is an extraordinary claim. And for all you know, it's just another silly religious superstition, one more manipulative ploy by power-hungry, money-grubbing gurus.

I believe that 99% of the so-called "enlightened" gurus out there are, in fact, total charlatans. However, I don't have that sense about Byron Katie, even after browsing through this forum. I could be wrong, of course. I've never met her and I'm not a mind-reader.

What's exciting to me is that science is starting to tackle issues of spirituality. We may soon have the tools necessary to definitively answer some important questions. i.e. Is a state of Nirvana possible, and if so, how is it best achieved and how can we verify its attainment?

As someone who has spent 10 to 15,000 hours meditating, I can tell you that spirituality is a physical process. Someone who lives in a permanent state of uninterrupted bliss will display some striking physiological anomalies that should be observable to science.

In other words, it should be theoretically possible to distinguish between a spiritual huckster and the real deal (assuming there is such a thing). Clearly, the ability to validate or invalidate claims of enlightenment would strike a serious blow against spiritual snake oil salesmen.

Contrary to what some of you have said, I do think BK's claims are testable and falsifiable, both personally (if we practice them) and scientifically. (For more on the neuroscience of spirituality, I recommend Zen and the Brain and Andrew Newberg's books.)

In closing, I understand that some of you think BK is crazy, creepy, and cultish. It seems to me that this conclusion is based on some serious misconceptions regarding her work. With your invitation, I will say a bit more. Or not. It's up to you.

To go at all into the nature of the "Mind" is clearly off-topic and beyond this forum.
But my comment is related to science. The human mind is a subject for very vigorous scientific research right now, in many areas. Cognitive science, psychology, neuroscience, and dozens of other fields.
The question, "what is the Mind" is probably one of the most important and complex areas in science and human knowledge, never mind philosophy.
But science is starting to work at this question.

But its beyond the scope of this forum and thread, as this is about abuse by cultic leaders and groups.
But for Byron Katie to run around talking about the "Mind" is really ridiculous, she doesn't know anything about it.
She is using her own mental concepts as a weapon, to try and passify her followers, in a very damaging and retrograde manner. Its like some type of new Dark Age.

Quote
dp198
"And no one on earth even knows what the freaking human mind really "is", but it certainly its the most astonishing thing known in the universe. "

Hi Anticult, I think that this part of your statement can be misleading, "And no one on earth even knows what the freaking human mind really "is". You think, and you have thoughts and sometimes people can ask you "what's on your mind". Your thinking and your thought's are. Or maybe sometime's "nothing really" can be an answer. I actually think the question "what is mind" is kind of dumb. And can be very misleading.

'In other words, it should be theoretically possible to distinguish between a spiritual huckster and the real deal (assuming there is such a thing). Clearly, the ability to validate or invalidate claims of enlightenment would strike a serious blow against spiritual snake oil salesmen.'


For the above sentence to make any sense at all we would need to agree on a clear definition of both 'spirituality' and 'enlightenment' as well as finding corroborative evidence for the existence of either.

I think we have a generally clear agreement on the definitions of huckster and snake oil salesmen--those selling pie- in-the-sky promises for enormous sums to persons who are not clear on the definitions or possible existence of 'spirituality' and 'enlightenment'.

Perhaps you could enlighten us and supply a definition of 'spirituality' and 'enlightenment.'

I am familiar with Austin's 'Zen and the Brain' a neurologist/zen practitioner's treatise on the neurology of meditation. He is enough of a scientist, however, to make no claims at all concerning spirituality or enlightenment.

My problem with BK is that she also makes no such direct claims, at least not in any public forum where she might be challenged, but she encourages, through her constant promotion of pseudo-mystical schtick, such fantasies and deliriums amongst her followers because she can then more easily relieve them of big bucks.

If you really have spent 10-15,000 hours meditating, you should have been able to see through by now such a daft statement as this that follows:

'Someone who lives in a permanent state of uninterrupted bliss will display some striking physiological anomalies that should be observable to science.'

Permanent state of uninterrupted bliss??? 10-15,000 hours and no permanent state of uninterrupted bliss?
My advice to you would be to find a better teacher, one who has the honesty to tell you that what you are looking for is already there and always has been.

You are being sold water by the river and as long as you are buying you will continue to be sold.
True meditation is watching what is 'really' happening, moment by moment. True meditation is truly boring, so much more entertaining to chase some mystical pipe-dream. Meditation is boring for a very, very good reason.

Read some neurology--there are no permanent states, the only permanent state you will ever attain will be when you are dead. The state of living is one of permanent flux, you must have noticed that, surely, in your 10-15,000 hours?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 09:57AM by Stoic.

anatta:

Obviously, its up to the moderator of this forum to decide what is appropriate to post or not post.

But the internet and blogs, are full of all sorts of promotion, advertising, marketing, and shilling for Byron Katie. There is nothing new in any of that for anyone reading a thread like this, which is not about advertising for a large for-profit private seminar company, but about critical thinking and looking at the facts and evidence.
And also making the most accurate judgements one can make, which is not always simple to do, as so much is HIDDEN in secrecy.
Here is some good information from someone named Janaki. [janakisstory.wordpress.com]

There is no question, there are many people who are True Believers of Byron Katie, who refuse to consider any of the dozens and hundreds of facts brought forward. Every sect is like that, it has its core group of believers, who are never swayed even by the worst acts committed by a Guru. As a matter of fact, it seems sometimes the worse it gets, the more the core group gets entrenched around their Guru?

There is no reason to fill up a thread like this, with more promotion of Byron Katie. Why not instead address the serious questions being asked...

Like the DAMAGE occuring to people at the 9 day seminars, the sales techniques, the people being called "Staff" and working for free, and the rest of it.
Why is everyone signed up to non-disclosure contacts?
What about the dozens of lies which have been exposed?
People in this thread could collate dozens and even hundreds of problems.

You say you "10 to 15,000 hours meditating". Is that TM, Transcendental Meditation?
Lost of people also try to promote TM as well, and that is a very damaging cult.
[www.suggestibility.org]
In a way, BK and TM have a very similar sales structure, the TM "20 minute meditation" is also a bait-and-switch, just like the The Work.


So you are NOT saying you achieved Enlightenment by a magical cockroach? Byron Katie says she never did anything, and it happened by magic. She says she's a Walk-In Spirit. (of course she gets others to say it, in her books).
That is obviously just the same Story told by Werner Erhard, and many other Enlightenment salesmen for many decades.

But as far as the message of the Mystics, that is clearly a device being used by Byron Katie. Anyone can claim they have achieved Enlightenment, and if you pay them, they will show you how too.
Its a business to make money, and get adulation from throngs of followers.


And you say that Byron Katie claims are testable and falsifiable by science?
They actually are NOT.
First off, its all ANECDOTES, which is not science, that is called Testimonial advertising.

And also, Byron Katie herself, and her company completely REFUTE all their own claims in their disclaimers.
THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK WITH BYRON KATIE - RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]
That is the loophole all these groups use, the advertising and the disclaimers are from different planets. Forget the advertising, listen to the disclaimers.

So instead of more promotion and shilling for Byron Katie, its more useful to look at the specific techniques she is using on people.
Start with any technique, from the Sales techniques, to the Storytelling persuasion techniques, to the LGAT seminar techniques, to the tricky contracts techniques, there are dozens and even hundreds of them.

Byron Katie is not an enlightened human. Anyone can play-act, and say they are, and many do. Its a business that generates massive amounts of cash, with little overhead. All you need is the gift of the gab, and charisma, and world-class group persuasion techniques.
She is a highly skilled salesperson.

also, Byron Katie is not "crazy" in the least. Crazy like a fox.
The "crazy" factor, as explained here in great detail, relates to the specific technique called Creating Confusion, which is done with the strange stories she constantly tells. Those also reach directly into the unconscious, into the area of dream-logic, which puts suggestible people into a light-trance state almost instantly.

People really need to make the effort to educate themselves in the specific techniques of the spiritual hustlers, or the guru-jumping just goes on for decades.

And if the person above, says they have meditated for 15,000 hrs, they are already primed to INSTANTLY go into deep trance states, in the hands of an expert.
If this person ever met a professional like Byron Katie face-to-face, she could elicit this person's state of deepest trance from meditating in MINUTES, and then simply link and transfer that to herself.
Its not even that hard to do for an expert in this area.

That is one thing not yet covered in this thread, the intensive methods that Byron Katie does to people in private, one-on-one. There is more info yet to come on that.

Also, Byron Katie has been shown, by insiders, and people attending her seminars, that she does NOT live "in a permanent state of uninterrupted bliss" or "unshakable state of "peace that passeth understanding."
Of course not, that is just a stage-performance, and not a very convincing one.

anatta,
you say you have not met Byron Katie, so its better to stick to the facts who have seen the Byron Katie performances in action onstage, and BACKSTAGE, where its not so pretty.

Some of the material from the Byron Katie books sounds like the message of the mystics, because that is how it was written, and where it was copied from.
That has been proven in thread too.
The book A Cry In The Desert, every sentence was gone over by Byron Katie, and written by a Christian mystic, projecting her idea of the WomanChrist onto Byron Katie.
That is why Byron Katie picked her to write that self-published book.
Go figure. What a coincidence.

Its really damaging, for people to think they can eliminate all of their painful emotions in life. Its setting people up for delusion, and disaster, and ironically depression.