Stever Robbins made a blog post, since removed, which seems to have used a GUN as a metaphor?
and guns are a favorite metaphor of Byron Katie in her Stories too.
The words that remain are..."overcome-resistance" ?

OVERCOMING RESISTANCE?

a favorite subject of all persuaders.

and of course, right after the blog was posted, Carol Skolnick was chiming on on the Byron Katie references.

______________________
[blog.steverrobbins.com]
"Stever // Dec 21, 2008 at 7:54 pm
*Grin* Given how deeply my thinking has been influenced by Katie, I’m not surprised this tip has a flavor of her"
______________________

Quote
Stoic

Anticult is wrong to say that knowledge alone of these techniques will protect anyone. These techniques play on the very human desires for certainty in an uncertain world and none of us are, by nature of being human, ever immune to those desires. It is the wariness and suspicion keeping you away from people practising this stuff that is protective as it is not possible to keep up your guard forever.

This is not an attempt to sway you, I have long since quit trying to change anybody's mind except my own, it is just what I have experienced of the LGAT techniques which are shady, underhand and risk triggering mental instability for some participants.

I agree with Stoic that knowledge alone does not offer enough protection. Maybe it does at the expert level that Anticult has attained?

Anticult, remember a few months ago you dissected that "Girlfriend Getaway" article, and I, despite immediately recognizing all the techniques the author used, still had all the positive feelings she intended? Not toward Katie, but toward the "Getaway".

I knew enough not to act on those feelings, and felt quite disgusted at being manipulated, but I still had the positive feelings she wished to evoke. It felt like an automatic response.

Learning about these NLP and hypnosis techniques has been immensely helpful, but I've been wondering if there's more that can be done to protect ourselves and others from what these predators are doing.

Maybe that's the human condition, but I'm not so sure. Anticult (or anyone else) does the knowledge you have of these thought-reform techniques prevent these techniques from working on you at any level? Are there other facgtors that prevent these techniques from evoking anything other than ridicule and disgust?

I'm also thinking of those pick-up guys who use similar techniques, although those poor stooges are so lame all I want to do is hand them a pair of crutches.

Quote
Christa
I'm also thinking of those pick-up guys who use similar techniques, although those poor stooges are so lame all I want to do is hand them a pair of crutches.

Great imagery! That's the type of mental pictures that help to put the scamsters more in perspective, I think. That particular mental picture should be added to "How to Kick Byron Katie Out Of Your Mind/Life Forever".

As for others in this thread having power over all the tricks these snake-oil hawkers use, I would say none of us is immune, although I want to see what others say, as well. This thread was started by someone 'named' QuestionEverything; I think that's good advice in general. It was actually advice my father gave me all my growing up. Had I not been so rebellious, perhaps I wouldn't have gone from guru to guru prior to finding this thread. Now, though, I personally question even my favorite contributors to this forum (of which The Anticult is one) by checking the links and researching the claims and statements. I believe one has to.

Staying awake is key, but not easy at all. I would say that the only defense against the onslaught coming down the pike is to be "on" at all times. Even then, how does one protect themselves when new tactics are evolving all the time, right along with the new and changing jargon in our culture. Good questions; not a definitive answer, I fear.

qd

'I knew enough not to act on those feelings, and felt quite disgusted at being manipulated, but I still had the positive feelings she wished to evoke. It felt like an automatic response.'


I think it is an automatic response, neurologically hardwired at a very early stage of life.
I wrote a long post in reply to this but it disappeared/was timed out or something. Probably mercifully lost as it was a bit involved.

But my basic point was that we are sensitive, responsive creatures. It is the sensitive response to our environment and that includes responding to others that gives us our thinking and planning flexibility, gives us choices.

At its simplest, we need the emotional/feelings capacity to gain an integrated perspective.

Feelings alone are an unreliable indicator as we interpret them through our previous experience.

For me the abstract, objectively detached view works in certain circumstances but in an ongoing situation that view needs to be tempered by the information--gut feelings--provided by emotion. 'Gut feeling' is far faster than thought and can be developed and trained to be more reliable.
In an ongoing situation where I have to 'think on my feet' I need an integrated response using critical thought and emotion intelligence if I wish make effective decisions. I personally prefer to be 'in' the situation, engaged and responding rather than coldly analysing it.

For me this is a straight choice between power-seeking, looking always for the 'right' rigid 'approved' way to do things or accepting that I am a fallible person, will often make a mistaken initial assessment but have the ongoing flexibility of mind to adjust and respond appropriately to whatever happens.

Its not possible to shut off an emotional response in only certain situations, the response is too fast. My first defense was one of rigid intellectualism which served for a while but has severe limitations, not least that I was lying to myself about how superior I was with my lofty view and lack of emotion. For me the price to continue in this way was too high.
There is a price paid in effort and time and 'being always right' to develop an integrated response but, again for me, the price is worth it. It also means accepting that I lose sometimes. It is the difference between being fully human or being a brain on a stick, a crude analogy but language is a crude instrument to describe a lifetime of decisions and choices.

To use the extract from your post above as an example I would look at it this way:
"So she provoked/manipulated positive feelings in me, they are my feelings not hers--I get the benefit of them as I have felt but not acted on them"

Feeling disgusted at being manipulated implies (to myself, which is my priority) that I am some kind of robot that is immune to responding to my environment--I would be lying to myself as I am not a robot.

Feeling disgusted at my manipulator who has attempted a power play on me is a healthy response. I may not respond with retaliatory action but at least I now know what I am dealing with and can plan accordingly.

I think there is a trade-off, as in most things, where I sacrifice my desire to be perfect and immune 9which is a pipe-dream anyway) to having a reasonable balaced expectation of myself.

I had a look at Stever Robbins blog, referenced by Anticult in the link above and found this, the last comment, to be revealing and pertinent:


'jcg // Dec 22, 2008 at 6:57 pm

i’ve been in these types of “negotiations” and they typically degenerate into emotional manipulation. i can tell i’m in one when a cold logical exposition is dismissed as irrelevant. at that point, my willingness to listen shuts down - sometimes i start “toying” with them at that point. negotiations are almost never about equals coming to a mutually acceptable agreement - it’s almost always about a superior technique or will overcoming a weaker one - the best outcomes are when the superior player can get the weaker one to think the result was their idea. this technique falls into that category for me.'

I would agree with his observation: ' negotiations are almost never about equals coming to a mutually acceptable agreement '
as I find that two parties to any interaction are rarely mutually balanced. I accept that as a fact of life rather than assume that there 'should' be some mythical level playing field. If I recognise this I can do something to mitigate the worst effects of the imbalance.
This chap above shows his cold calculating dependence on technique (good in business and battle maybe but not for interpersonal relations) and betrays his belief in Social Darwinism and knowledge of power game manipulation.

In non-dual philosophy, a rigid stance is a weak one, a habitual pattern will eventually expose the 'achilles heel'.

I would take that information into account if I had to negotiate or otherwise deal with this indivdual.
Flexibilty is less flashy but works better for me in the long run.
Information is only ever information but knowledge, which is tried and tested information integrated over time into my entire being-- that can quite often be power.

Well...I strongly/completely disagree that I am wrong that 'knowledge' of the techniques will protect people!
;-)
First off, I never would have said "knowledge alone" can protect people. I don't even know what that means! (of course empty facts are almost useless).
And I have always said no one is ever totally immune from getting duped. Even pure greed can lure almost anyone, when there is REAL money on the table in excess of 6 figures, and people get Gold-Fever.

Knowledge of the Tech's, (not just NLP, but all the social influence tech) implies mastery of them, awareness of how they work.
And even if a person has a TINY knowledge/awareness of them, that can be enough. As they see someone trying to "play" them, and then you know they are trying to dupe you. Then you don't give them any money, and get out of there fast.
So you might know only 5% of what they are doing, but you keep 100% of your money. That's a good deal.

Its not even wariness or suspicion, its simply being aware of what they are doing, as they are doing it.

And it is NOT easy. For example, listening and analyzing the Byron Katie CD's and books on tape is very difficult and draining. You have to listen, pause the CD, think, make notes, go back, etc.

And also, as I mentioned a few times, you can "double-dissociate" when dealing with people who are doing the Tech on you. In your minds eye, you simply watch yourself being talked to, as if you are watching a video camera, nothing fancy. This makes it easier to see what is being done.

As far as the Girlfriend Getaway, maybe that is a good example. Feeling disgust is good! That means it didn't work, as you didn't buy it.
But maybe the Getaway part might be just the idea of a vacation with a friend? Everyone has vulnerabilities. Some are about "love" some about money, fame, sex, adulation, success, etc.
All the human vanities and fallibilities, every human is subject to, they exploit that.
Like..."get rich quick with no effort". mixed with anecdotal salespitches...like...

_____________QUOTE excerpt_______________________________
“SOLVE ALL YOUR MONEY PROBLEMS FOREVER” [www.flowofmoney.com]
"I am now almost 49, married for 27 years, have four adult children and have my own consulting firm. Much of what I have accomplished has come from things I learned in your book. I have ordered copies on Amazon from all over the country and have given a copy to every client that I work with. The list includes a pro golfer who will be playing in the US open, a gymnast who will be competing in Athens, several CEOs of billion-dollar corporations, Iyanla Vanzant (author of 15 books and talk show host) soon to be Life Coach on the television program called Starting Over, Steve Chandler (author of 7 books, including a best seller in Japan and in China. Steve is paid 40k a day to speak. I have been his personal coach for 10 years), and others."
— Steve Hardison, Phoenix, Arizona
_____________________________________________________

Obviouly please do NOT buy that book!!! These guys know how to exploit human weakness, and its nothing fancy. Its about as fancy as getting a doggie to chase a steak on a string.

But for someone who REALLY knows these techniques they backfire when someone tries to use them on you. Why? Simple reason.

You see the person is trying to dishonestly manipulate you, so you close down your mind and wallet. Game over. That part is very simple. Is there any person who is going to trust someone they have just caught lying to them MANY times in a row? Hopefully not. (if so, then a person needs some help in that area, of course).

Again, this is all very complex stuff. And no one is totally immune to getting duped, of course.

But what else can anyone do, than to take the knowledge of the many techniques, and apply it?
Even IF there are some behaviorist stimulus/response triggers, then what? The only way to deal with that is by being aware your buttons are being pushed, and to do something about it, even just getting the hell out of there.

But going into an LGAT environment is very dangerous and tricky.
Frankly, when "free tickets" come along to do research and attend an LGAT, you can't "play along" full-out, or you might get sucked in. But you sit near the back and WATCH what the speaker is doing to people, write down their techniques. Leave the room frequently, etc.
You mostly ignore the "content" and focus on the meta-level persuasion techniques.

What else can a person do than to become aware of the techniques being used? Then part of that awareness is knowing how to fight against them. Its like Judo or psychological self-defense.

What else can a person do?

And again, even if a person only has a small knowledge of the techniques, that can be enough. Not to fight against it, and overcome them in an LGAT. (that is very difficult).
No, simply to realize they are trying to "play" you, and to close your wallet, close your mind, and get the hell out of there fast.
And if they try to physically stand in your way, as some of them will do, then you have to know how to tell them they have 5 seconds to get out of your way, or you are pressing 911. 5-4-3-2-
They'll move.

Everyone is vulnerable. And we are most vulnerable when we cannot see the techniques.
But we don't have to see ALL the tech to know we are getting scammed and duped, then just get the hell out of there.
Of course, these groups exploit people who are "too nice" as they say. So for those folks, perhaps learning powerful Assertiveness is also part of their recovery.

and of course, some people even may have Dependant Personality [www.mentalhealth.com] or something like that.
If so, then that person really needs to seek some excellent accredited professional help, or they might just keep going back into it, over and over.

But int the end, one can't do anything, until one is AWARE that something is going on.
This is why they DENY anything is going on, and tell you to turn off your "mind".

Quote
Christa

Quote
Stoic

Anticult is wrong to say that knowledge alone of these techniques will protect anyone. These techniques play on the very human desires for certainty in an uncertain world and none of us are, by nature of being human, ever immune to those desires. It is the wariness and suspicion keeping you away from people practising this stuff that is protective as it is not possible to keep up your guard forever.

This is not an attempt to sway you, I have long since quit trying to change anybody's mind except my own, it is just what I have experienced of the LGAT techniques which are shady, underhand and risk triggering mental instability for some participants.

I agree with Stoic that knowledge alone does not offer enough protection. Maybe it does at the expert level that Anticult has attained?

Anticult, remember a few months ago you dissected that "Girlfriend Getaway" article, and I, despite immediately recognizing all the techniques the author used, still had all the positive feelings she intended? Not toward Katie, but toward the "Getaway".

I knew enough not to act on those feelings, and felt quite disgusted at being manipulated, but I still had the positive feelings she wished to evoke. It felt like an automatic response.

Learning about these NLP and hypnosis techniques has been immensely helpful, but I've been wondering if there's more that can be done to protect ourselves and others from what these predators are doing.

Maybe that's the human condition, but I'm not so sure. Anticult (or anyone else) does the knowledge you have of these thought-reform techniques prevent these techniques from working on you at any level? Are there other facgtors that prevent these techniques from evoking anything other than ridicule and disgust?

I'm also thinking of those pick-up guys who use similar techniques, although those poor stooges are so lame all I want to do is hand them a pair of crutches.

also, even if a response is behaviorist, or "hard-wired", then the person's response is the same. A person still has to become cognitively AWARE(knowledge) of what is going on, and then do something about it.
Its important to remember that the high-level persuasion tech is the icing on the cake...the cake is stuff like...

END SUFFERING FOREVER
ATTAIN INSTANT ENLIGHTENMENT TODAY (no money down)
FIND YOUR SOULMATE LOVE NOW
HAVE WONDERFUL RELATIONSHIPS
GET RICH NOW FOREVER
BE A SUCCESS
GET LAID USING NLP
BE HAPPY NOW and FOREVER


They just pander to what fallible humans think they want.
Then they use the fancy persuasion tech, to overcome the objections to the sale.

A good way to learn the techniques, is to get FREE books from the library from those who teach these methods to others. (but of course, they are always trying to run scamola patterns as they do that too).

And of course, there are some legit professionals, who do teach valid methods of ways people can help themselves in areas. There is the rub.

'Well...I strongly/completely disagree that I am wrong that 'knowledge' of the techniques will protect people!
;-)'


Anticult,
Apologies for the very broad and ultimately misleading generalisation I made.

Quote
Christa
I'm also thinking of those pick-up guys who use similar techniques, although those poor stooges are so lame all I want to do is hand them a pair of crutches.

This is actually a good example. In this area, one person might be very aware of what is going on, so it doesn't work, its laughable. But for other people, they fall for it.
Some people fall for Love-Bombs, as maybe they are love-starved.
Others fall for the Greed/Vanity stuff, while others see right through it instantly.

This is why the biggest LGAT's gurus, do ALL of it AT ONCE.
They flood their material and seminars with everything at once, as everyone has different vulnerabilites.
One minute, they talk about love, then Enlightenment, then weight-loss, then money, then sex, they throw everything at once at the audience and some of it sticks to different people.

And its really starting to sound like they do put a "Sucker-Test" in their material, to WEED OUT those who are critical thinkers, as they know those people aren't going to give them any money anyway, so they want to get rid of them as soon as possible.

Something like how Byron Katie makes everyone sign that ridiculous disclaimer before her seminar.
Seriously, if a person read that carefully, and got advice, would they sign something like this?
People are not thinking clearly when they sign these LGAT disclaimers, they probably don't even read them.
It looks like they want to select only people who DON'T read things carefully before signing them? The release weeds out the kind of people they don't want.

How many people reading this thread would sign that release? Honestly, not to be judgemental or anything, just out of curiousity. Would anyone sign it?

THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK WITH BYRON KATIE - RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
Stoic
'Well...I strongly/completely disagree that I am wrong that 'knowledge' of the techniques will protect people!
;-)'

Anticult,
Apologies for the very broad and ultimately misleading generalisation I made.

Stoic, I had noticed this statement too and like The Anticult, completely disagreed with it. I'm glad he spoke up about it. Also glad you apologized.

Not so different to me was when you negated my "Information = Power" assertion. I stand by that statement and will object if you try to dismantle it again. :-)