Its very accurate that this Byron Katie situation is about Power.

Its not just about money, even though the system they are running is a brilliant cash flow system with much of the 'cash' in the form of what many are calling "free labor".
Its pure profit. Labor is the biggest cost of any business, and if you can get that labor (Staff) for free, or even get people to pay their own way while they work...jackpot.


(Side-note: some information about Landmark Education Labor Violations in California) [www.culteducation.com]
"Landmark pays $187,000.00 in back wages to employees". [www.culteducation.com]



But the power comes in, from the adulation Byron Katie receives from her demographic audience. Its been said many times that her demographic is women of a certain age, who often have some very serious pain and issues.
And anyone can see, the incredible Ego-hit Byron Katie gets, from having all of her people look up to her as some sort of divine spirit or being. There is even that YouTube clip with the woman on her knees before Byron Katie in a parking lot, and when the camera arrives, BK breaks it up.
How long do they let that sort of ridiculous behavior go on in a live seminar, or in private, when there are no cameras rolling?

That kind of crowd worship is very intoxicating, its literally like a drug. They crave that attention and adulation, and get very irritated when the high starts to wear off.
Some drug-addicts and pill-poppers just replace one high, with another high.

And as everyone knows, Power Corrupts.
So once a person figures out how to manipulate people, and gain power and influence over them, it does not take long for it to spiral out of control.
It can happen to anyone, as has been shown many times. Never mind those who CRAVE that attention, and who crave that power over people, and work for years to achieve it.
Its very intoxicating for them, and the more they get, the more they want.

Power Corrupts.
That is reality.

And of course, with these more modern Guru's, they have to try to DENY this is what they are doing, and say the opposite. So the words they use about their Guru status have to be carefully cross-checked against their behaviors.
The biggest joke in these circles, is to use a phrase like..."there is no such thing as hypnosis" and use that in a hypnotic induction! That is misdirection.
And its the same with the New Guru's, their overt words might be...I am not your Guru...but their patterns, and specific behaviors are the polar opposite. They use permissive suggestions, to get people to project the guru status onto them, which ironically makes it more powerful.
Reverse psychology.

But the power is at the top, the decision come from the top, the money goes to the top, the communication is a one-way conversation, top to bottom.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2009 06:51AM by The Anticult.

That is exactly what these threads about about! People making up their own minds, and finding out the accurate information.
Why not read the threads first?

The threads are precisely about looking into the methods and the REAL messages contained in the behaviors and words of Byron Katie.

The "leave the rest" message, is a standard reply from so many folks in this area.
Why leave the rest? Says who?

Why not analyze the specific techniques being used to extract countless thousands and millions of dollars from people?

And then use that knowledge, to apply to the other New Wage guru's and hucksters flooding the market, so a person doesn't get ripped-off again, and again?

Quote
Solvejg
Hi there. Why be busy with the messenger (Byron Katie, Eckhart Tolle)? Look into the message and decide for yourself what is useful to you and leave the rest would be my suggestion and nobody but you can know what is useful to you, so nobody can give you an answer to whether they are 'the thing' or not.
Love and hugs from Solvejg

just to clarify a bit, the Turnarounds which create excessive self-blame, have actually been shown in hundreds of studies in cognitive therapy to CREATE depression.
Its called excessive Self-Downing.

Excessive self-blame creates too much Guilt and depression, that is shown in hundreds of actual studies. They have exercises like a "Responsibilty Pie", in the book Mind Over Mood to assign appropriate responsibility. [mindovermood.com]
Real cognitive therapy, has absolutely NOTHING to do with Byron Katie, in reality its the freaking OPPOSITE , to anyone who knows anything about it. They have just tried to make that claim as advertising propaganda and misdirection.
Byron Katie (the Work) is the opposite of Cognitive Therapy [forum.culteducation.com]


To be technical, if a person takes on too much self-blame for everything, your emotional life is going to go down the crapper with depression, and worse.


and also, the Solipsism thing is fascinating. Another of the main reason's that BK uses it, is that the solipsist perspective, is how people feel when in "hypnosis". So its a back-door way of achieving trance states.
If a person really does go solipsist in everyday life...that needs medical attention.

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helpme2times

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The Anticult
There are actually very few "ideas" in the Byron Katie system, the NonDual stuff is really more about just creating confusion in people, which is the primary technique.
For example, the 4 Questions operate like the worm on a fish-hook, to get people to bite into them, and then BK can reel them in, one step at a time.

The 4 Questions of Byron Katie have been debunked before in detail, by a number of people.
(The Work, in terms of the 4 Questions and a Turnaround, is a clever "gimmick"). [forum.culteducation.com]

The Turnaround does not work, what it does is create excessive self-blame, and self-guilt, and that creates depression. That is intentional, as then people are lured into the Byron Katie seminars and "coaching" systems.
Why are there so many people making so much money off the Byron Katie coaching systems, if it worked? It doesn't work. It creates momentary Dissociation, and then that creates even more problems.

Very important to hammer home what The Anticult has pointed out above.

I can attest from my own experience that doing The Work creates momentary Dissociation, which only gives a temporary bit of relief, but then reality always comes crashing back. The twisted Turnarounds DO as Anticult states cause a lot of self-blame as well as disorientation or a sense of unreality.

That is destabilizing, not health-promoting.

Byron Katie's "Work" promotes solipsism, which is the philosophical idea that one's own mind is all that exists.

I've found some fascinating info on something called "Solipsism Syndrome".

Quote

Solipsism syndrome is a pathological psychiatric condition involving a dissociative mental state. This psychiatric condition is characterized by a detachment from reality – a state of mind in which a person begins to feel that all reality is internal and the remainder of the perceived universe is unreal or only exists in a dream state. The condition is not other than incidentally related to Solipsism as a philosophical world view.


Developmental psychologists commonly believe that infants are solipsist, and that eventually children infer that others have experience much like theirs and learn to experience empathy (see Infant metaphysics).

Solipsism syndrome has been postulated as a danger which may be faced by those living in space or on another planet for extended periods of time.

And here is more:

Quote

Some environments may be conducive to producing solipsism syndrome. This state of mind can be easily produced in an environment where everything is artificial, where everything is like a theater stage, where every wish can be fulfilled by a push-button, and where there is nothing beyond the theater stage and beyond an individual's control.

Gee, sounds quite like the uber-controlled environment of a Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT). Imagine that.

Above is from Wikipedia.

There is so much in this blog post, in the post referenced by Meadow here.
[forum.culteducation.com]

There are the base-level meanings of course.
But Byron Katie is also master of metaphors, the kind of stuff Stever Robbins teaches in Mastering Metaphors.
There is so much there, too much to go into now.

But one must always remember to take a few steps back, and look at the larger metaphors being used. Look at the META-LEVEL.
There may or may not even be a real person with the cancer with that name. Is there?


But CANCER is a Byron Katie open nested loop, a nested loop Story, that Byron Katie comes back to constantly. Why? Due to the fear, power, and terror of that word and disease.
Some other metaphors are PAINKILLERS and DRUGS. [forum.culteducation.com]

But the message is not just about those with terminal cancer. The message is really about PAIN.
And in hypnotherapy, its very common practice to try and use hypnosis for PAIN MANAGEMENT. That is one of its main clinical uses.
What they often do, is IMAGINE taking massive doses of painkillers, under hypnosis, to try to block the pain. Does it work? There are all sorts of conflicting claims.

BUT, to the trained-eye, many messages are being sent at once in that blog Story, it is really an Induction in the form of a dialogue, it could have just been written as such, and certainly was edited down.

Yes, there is a clear message for people who could pop-pills until they are doped out of their minds and not only don't feel pain, but don't "exist".
But the "COULD" is also being used as a metaphor.

And there are also the symbolic metaphors about The Work, that insiders are going to understand. The message is to Dissociate to such an extreme extent, that not only do you not feel pain in general, but there is No-Mind, and No-Self. Mind-Cleanse, Mind-Wash.
There have been reports in this very thread about BK followers who became so detached, and so numb, they were almost catatonic.
[forum.culteducation.com]
"I know a woman who after being involved with the Work for a year...changed from a warm, emotional person into some state close to autism".


So its also part of the larger pattern of using massive repetition, over and over, to induce the extreme Dissociation in her own people.
And notice, in that post...
she is saying that being doped out on painkillers until you are literally out of your mind = Freedom.

Quote:
Katie: "True freedom is freedom from the mind. You take the pills, you’re free from the mind. When the body no longer functions, the mind cannot identify as a this. Everyone gets free. Sooner or later. So let’s free ourselves of the mind."


That is her message.
That being totally wacked-out on painkiller drugs is the same emotional/mental state, as what she is preaching as Freedom, using The Work.

Why is she doing that?
She is trying to create a shortcut, to get people to fall into that same zonked-out state when on massive amounts of painkiller drugs...(and BK does target pill-poppers)...
Why?

Her followers need to think about that very carefully.
Being wacked out on painkiller drugs is the same as the Byron Katie "Freedom"?
Does that make any sense?

No, its simply a short-cut tactic, to try to literally eliminate people's "minds" as much as possible.
Not for Freedom.
But so they will then more easily follow the suggestions and commands coming from Byron Katie without questioning them.
The REAL message is for people to Dissociate to an extreme extent...

QUOTE "let’s free ourselves of the mind"...

That is the illusion. They are NOT freeing themselves of THE mind, but of their OWN mind.
Then Byron Katie's "mind" in terms of her suggestions and words take over the drivers seat.
There are no fancy words for it. Its simply an experiment in Mind-Control. Literally.

Even a follower can see the absurdity here...
where she is saying being wacked out on drugs = Freedom, which is Enlightement.
That is obviously ridiculous. Talk about abusing the No-Mind philosophies.

But its just a tactic, to try and passify people's natural independant minds, by using the drugs as a metaphor, in the Story about cancer and pain control.
The real message is to try and passify the "mind" of the people to the maximum possible level, to try and make some sheeple.

Does it work? Not totally, but its a process, that needs to be repeated, over and over.
It really seems to be an experiment in how far they can take it.
But people of course do not become zombies or such nonsense. Its about INFLUENCE. The more passive the mind, the less critical thinking, the more one takes on the suggestions coming from Byron Katie.
Its about attaining maximum influence, and engineering what appears to be conscious consent.
How far are they going to be able to take it?
Where is it going to end?

And when those who are the receivers of this powerful covert influence, start to become AWARE of what is being done to them, by reading and thinking about it, then as the entire process begins to turnaround and backfire...what then?

Then hopefully it will be time to come forward and tell the truth about what is going on behind closed doors, as the public has a right to know what people are trying to do to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2009 09:26AM by The Anticult.

PS...
Lets not "free ourselves of the mind".
The human mind is probably the most incredible thing in all of nature. Most neuroscientists think it evolved over billions of years, others may think it is a spark of something else. Regardless, it is a wonder.

The "mind" is not the problem, the mind is the solution.
And no one on earth even knows what the freaking human mind really "is", but it certainly its the most astonishing thing known in the universe.

So to try and blot-out the "mind" and give yourself a self-lobotomy, is really a horror. Its not the road to freedom, its the road to bondage, its regression, its self-abuse, its mental slavery.
That is not the key to happiness, or freedom, of course.

The answer is for humans to try to learn how to use their mind, and thinking skills, and intelligence, and emotional intelligence, more effectively.


This is Byron Katie's "solution".
If you can't play the piano beautifully with your hands...THEN CHOP YOUR HANDS OFF!! Those evil hands are the problem!
No, you spend a few years carefully learning how to play the piano, and learn how to move your hands, and your music.

Just because a person's "mind" is creating some misery, you don't try to cut-out the mind! You go to some trained, accredited people, and learn how to think more accurately, and feel and behave in a more constructive way. Its called mental health.


Its really not that complex what they are trying to do here to people.
People with strong critical thinking skills, and healthy minds, are not loved by cultish leaders. They tend to ask questions, and not follow suggestions to buy stuff and do what they are told.
So the New Wage cultish leaders, try and abuse the old idea of No-Mind from eastern philosophy, to passify the minds of their followers, so they will follow suggestions easier.
That's it.

Never mind that the "No-Mind" idea is something from an ancient time, when life was short due to disease, and there was not enough food, and life was misery and ignorance.
But now they abuse the No-Mind idea, simply to try and create more passive followers who don't think critically, and do what they are asked and told to do.

Quote
Solvejg
Hi there. Why be busy with the messenger (Byron Katie, Eckhart Tolle)? Look into the message and decide for yourself what is useful to you and leave the rest would be my suggestion and nobody but you can know what is useful to you, so nobody can give you an answer to whether they are 'the thing' or not.
Love and hugs from Solvejg

check out the update on [janakisstory.wordpress.com] opening page, this Solveg person really beats down on her. funny she says love and hugs. sounds like a katie fan to me.

Quote
Meadow

Someone sent me a copy of a teleconference that BK regularly holds with people who are in her certification program.

Some interesting listening.
<SNIP>

I do have some close friends that are actually in the certification program. It is clear that even within the ranks, doubt has started to creep in, since some of them are feeding me information. They are actually afraid to post themselves, even when using an alias.

Meadow, thank you for your posts.

Please tell your friends about wikileaks.org. They can put info about Katie there completely anonymously. Citizens of countries such as Iran or Burma often use wikileaks, as do corporate whistleblowers.

I'm confused. What kind of spiritual freedom causes fear of exercising the most basic human freedom, freedom of expression? What the hell kind of "School" is Katie running? Can you imagine if University students in any Western democracy were frightened of criticizing their professors online anonymously? Even the most timid 18-year old wouldn't stand for that for half a second.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2009 05:14PM by Christa.

Quote
Christa

Quote
Meadow

Someone sent me a copy of a teleconference that BK regularly holds with people who are in her certification program.

Some interesting listening.
<SNIP>

I do have some close friends that are actually in the certification program. It is clear that even within the ranks, doubt has started to creep in, since some of them are feeding me information. They are actually afraid to post themselves, even when using an alias.

Meadow, thank you for your posts.

Please tell your friends about wikileaks.org. They can put info about Katie there completely anonymously. Citizens of countries such as Iran or Burma often use wikileaks, as do corporate whistleblowers.

I'm confused. What kind of spiritual freedom causes fear of exercising the most basic human freedom, freedom of expression? What the hell kind of "School" is Katie running? Can you imagine if University students in any Western democracy were frightened of criticizing their professors online anonymously? Even the most timid 18-year old wouldn't stand for that for half a second.

I don't think it is so much the fear of expressing themselves or the fear of exposure. Integrity, sincerity and loyalty are very high on the list of virtues within the work community. And to have a hidden agenda is a big no-no. They would probably feel compelled to confess sooner or later, do some sort of public humiliation and make amends. Admitting to what you feel ashamed about is a big thing in their circles, especially in front of large audiences.

BK started a whole thing about this in one of her thoughts of the month:

Quote

Hi family! Paul S. forwarded the CNN story below to me, and I wanted to pass it on to you with the following challenge:

1) What stories, like the woman's story below, do you still keep quiet, holding it inside you as a result of your own fear and unWorked mind? For example, the woman below told her doctor that she feared that her husband would feel insulted if she told him what was true for her. "If I told him the truth, he would be insulted," she said. Identify and name your hidden truth, one that is limiting your life, your freedom, wealth, etc., and if there are more than one or two, list all of them, all the unspoken truths that you live your life out as a lie.

2) Do The Work on each of your identified "hidden" agenda.

3) Without the slightest use of any defense or justification, in the most loving way that you know, when you are ready, say what is true for you to the person that you fear consequences from and speak your truth to that person. I suggest that you practice your communication first; it's all there in your "just Worked" mind and/or your Worksheet. Also, you may want to do The Work on yourself, that person or people, after you have spoken your truth.

4) Live out the freedom that your truths have opened up for you. Without any bullying, gently step into the space you have now opened. For example, after you have done The Work, practiced communicating what is true for you to speak, and have told him/her that you in no way mean any harm towards him/her, start keeping the books yourself or as a joint effort with your husband before you/he leads your family into financial ruin.

5) Share your results and experiences with us. What emotions happened within you on your journey, how did it feel to be that honest, to come out of your closet? What consequence happened later, was it what you feared would happen? If so, describe it. Was it really terrible after you spoke and began to live your truth? And if so, did you Work through it? That would be the sixth suggestion, if it comes to that. Begin again.

We always begin now, now is good. Now, repeat after me, "No one has to do this exercise."

I love you, family. You are the one, the most important peacemaker in the world.

kt

People end up posting all kinds of private information on the BKI forum, information that is open to the general public. They post using their own name and picture.

I have also seen this happen in a workshop that I once attended with BK in LA. People stand in front of large audiences and confess shamefull stuff they have done. It seems that BK loves this, she really encourages them to do this.

People are being fed this really twisted sense of honesty, that for some reason, they cannot bypass. So sooner or later they will tell her what she wants to hear or know. What they do not seem to notice is the mega hidden agenda that BK has underneath this whole honesty/integrity issue. Since she is the holy one in their eyes, she is able to get by with almost anything.

I wonder if she ever gets that honest herself?

'The "mind" is not the problem, the mind is the solution.'

A great post, Anticult.

It would be more accurate, IMO, to say that the mind is both the problem and the solution. This might sound a bit BKish but you have covered it here:

"The answer is for humans to try to learn how to use their mind, and thinking skills, and intelligence, and emotional intelligence, more effectively. "

Limited understanding, which is what we have growing up in the world, causes problems for us. Increasing that understanding gives us the tools to deal with the inevitable problems. The solutions come from the same place that the problems come from.

The problems of living in the world don't ever go away, but we already have the resource, if we put it to use, to deal with the problems.
Learning and a growing understanding is the only growth possible--- so all the talk of evolving to a higher plane and being spiritually exalted is just talk, sales talk.

(I would actually delete the word "try" from your brilliant sentence, but then I am excessively nit-picky)

Quote
Stoic
This might sound a bit BKish but you have covered it here:

"The answer is for humans to try to learn how to use their mind, and thinking skills, and intelligence, and emotional intelligence, more effectively."

How "might" this statement be BK-ish? That sounds quite strange to me.

I'm remembering another statement you made here earlier, in this post. That too had seemed strange.

I knew when I first posted here that I would face the same charge as you of being an apologist for BK--I have read the entirety of the thread and expected the same treatment.

I never, ever expected to be deemed a BK apologist on this board. There would be no reason for that to happen. I'm here to help uncover the underbelly of a slick and imo harmful operation. I've nothing supportive to say about the subject of this thread. Nada. Zip.

On the other hand, someone with a hidden agenda just might fear being called out for BK apologizing. As has certainly transpired more than once here.

Sorry but statements such as I've noted above are suspicious to me.

Just calling it as I see it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2009 06:43PM by helpme2times.