Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
kassy
()
Date: July 07, 2009 02:05PM
"'"The Byron Katie professional internet marketing machine, is going to try and turn up the volume. Its obvious that the analysis of Byron Katie is starting to get through to people, so they are going to try and blowback against the analysis of her persuasion methods.
Once the Byron Katie people can see even a TINY bit of the persuasion methods being used on them, it really messes up the BK persuasion system.
Because it plants that seed of doubt in people' minds, and it never leaves. Its always there in their mind, wondering what she is up to now, and why she is using these techniques on them.
It destroys her entire story. "'"
This seems just about as sane and logical as something out of the Crucible.
What persuasion methods? You mean the weirding way (from Dune), the force, witchcraft? Are you talking about the way people are persuaded when she talks, she's using some esoteric method to sway them that they are unaware of? (lol) The way she twiddles her fingers, she's influencing them with her powerful shakti?
Pardon me for being uneducated on the ways of these manipulative cult-leaders who use telepathic mind control (lol), but to me she just seems to do what used to be referred to as talking to people.
Did Barack Obama use these secret persuasion methods to sway the electorate, thus his meteoric rise?
The problem I see with this, if there is any, is that people are responsible for their own actions. In a childish way this puts the responsibility for my own actions on someone's "persuasion methods". I'm killing jews at Auschwitz, not because I'm driven to murder people by my unquestioned thoughts, but because
Hitler made me do it by using his subtle persuasion methods. It didn't fly at Nuremberg. Hitler though is responsible for telling people to do it.
No, I'm responsible for whether I kill someone or not. No one can make me do it. The people joining Byron Katie's organization working for it, whatever we think about it are responsible for their own actions because they are adults. They are not children in an abusive family with no choice. They chose to join and continue and be a part of it. They are adults making their own decisions whether we agree with them or not. Not only are they responsible for their choices, they have a right to make them where they don't physically infringe on someone else having the same freedom.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Byron Katie's writing in Loving What is, is pretty straightforward and down to earth. There's no magic, no supernatural claims. To claim that the four questions are a secret tool to draw people in. What is there some magic powder in the text of the four questions that will cause me to go "I must join Byron Katie's Borg Collective"? So if a claim such as that is going to be made, it requires extraordinary proof. The claim that the four questions. Is it true? Can you absolute that it's true? How does it affect you? How would you be with out it? Turn it around. Is a secret method to manipulate people into forking over cash and become slaves to Byron Katie? That is an extraordinary claim.
The claim that she is abusive or manipulative is not. That can be easily proved. It doesn't require extraordinary evidence. As far as the legality of her group. As to date, no foul play, no violence has been talked about, so it seems like a moot point. But you have a right to your opinon.
Once the Byron Katie people can see even a TINY bit of the persuasion methods being used on them, it really messes up the BK persuasion system.
Because it plants that seed of doubt in people' minds, and it never leaves. Its always there in their mind, wondering what she is up to now, and why she is using these techniques on them.
It destroys her entire story. "'"
This seems just about as sane and logical as something out of the Crucible.
What persuasion methods? You mean the weirding way (from Dune), the force, witchcraft? Are you talking about the way people are persuaded when she talks, she's using some esoteric method to sway them that they are unaware of? (lol) The way she twiddles her fingers, she's influencing them with her powerful shakti?
Pardon me for being uneducated on the ways of these manipulative cult-leaders who use telepathic mind control (lol), but to me she just seems to do what used to be referred to as talking to people.
Did Barack Obama use these secret persuasion methods to sway the electorate, thus his meteoric rise?
The problem I see with this, if there is any, is that people are responsible for their own actions. In a childish way this puts the responsibility for my own actions on someone's "persuasion methods". I'm killing jews at Auschwitz, not because I'm driven to murder people by my unquestioned thoughts, but because
Hitler made me do it by using his subtle persuasion methods. It didn't fly at Nuremberg. Hitler though is responsible for telling people to do it.
No, I'm responsible for whether I kill someone or not. No one can make me do it. The people joining Byron Katie's organization working for it, whatever we think about it are responsible for their own actions because they are adults. They are not children in an abusive family with no choice. They chose to join and continue and be a part of it. They are adults making their own decisions whether we agree with them or not. Not only are they responsible for their choices, they have a right to make them where they don't physically infringe on someone else having the same freedom.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Byron Katie's writing in Loving What is, is pretty straightforward and down to earth. There's no magic, no supernatural claims. To claim that the four questions are a secret tool to draw people in. What is there some magic powder in the text of the four questions that will cause me to go "I must join Byron Katie's Borg Collective"? So if a claim such as that is going to be made, it requires extraordinary proof. The claim that the four questions. Is it true? Can you absolute that it's true? How does it affect you? How would you be with out it? Turn it around. Is a secret method to manipulate people into forking over cash and become slaves to Byron Katie? That is an extraordinary claim.
The claim that she is abusive or manipulative is not. That can be easily proved. It doesn't require extraordinary evidence. As far as the legality of her group. As to date, no foul play, no violence has been talked about, so it seems like a moot point. But you have a right to your opinon.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Christa
()
Date: July 07, 2009 05:01PM
Hi Kassy.
I want to focus on an angle you don't seem to have considered.
The metaphor of a worm on a fishhook appears ITT a few times. Anticult brought it up first, and it's really influenced my own thinking.
You write of benefits you've derived from the work as if they're important, or even relevant. They are not.
The benefits you may have derived from the Work are beside the point.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Worm of Byron Katie provides some nourishment, in part because she appears to have plagiarized the 4 questions and a turnaround from someone competent. But the Work, like a Worm on a fishing line, is not there to nourish you.
Katie doesn't give away the work so that it will help anyone's spiritual growth. She sets it as bait. And for you to talk about bait as if it's food is misguided and misleading.
You might experience benefits from the worksheets, and you might be one of the ones who doesn't get hooked into turning over your money and your mind to BKI. That's great for you, and if you want to seek psychic nourishment at the end of a spiked hook, that's your business.
The problem with your anecdotal report is that you are not actually providing useful info to others.
First, the persuasion systems Katie uses are invisible to the uninformed, so your representations that you've made a free will choice cannot be relied on.
Second, you appear not to have important insider info. (Although you to dismiss the new info you learn for reasons that are either boneheaded or incoherent.)
Just as it's dangerous for a fish to seek nourishment at the end of fishhook, it's dangerous for spiritual seekers to confound bait with food. And it's even more dangerous for those deluded seekers to advertise to the public that bait IS food. 'Cause it's not.
I have never used street drugs, but I've heard that the first few times people take them, their experiences are often great. And the pushers frequently give drugs out for free and then see who comes back.
So someone writing about using cocaine 5 or 6 times might well say, yeah, I snorted this stuff up my nose, I've heard some bad things about it, but I felt great, on top of the world! I was able to stay at work till 3 am and get twice as much work done as the other people on the team. The clients are thrilled and I'm sure I'll get that promotion! And when I got home to my boyfriend -- the sex was !!!111!!!!
Well, that sounds like a great recommendation for coke! We should all try it, if that's what it does. And what's with these Puritanical anti-drug Luddites, who just don't want to see people reach all of their potential and really enjoy life.
The thing is, that glowing new user report on cocaine is not the whole story; it's a dangerous half-truth.
Most people who try any drug, AFAIK, don't get hooked and don't really even experience lasting damage. I think that's true for most people who come into contact with any cultic group.
But what happens to the people who do get hooked is so awful that not telling the whole story simply isn't fair, and doesn't justify the experiences of the ones who got away unscathed.
And I'll add that the violent, exploitative distribution systems drug users support by engaging in what they think is a private habit or an adult choice is part of the problem, too.
The thing with drugs, and bait, for that matter, is that the risks are so high, they aren't worth the rewards, any rewards. If you were a fish, and Katie were a fisherwoman, would your glowing reports really be doing the other fish in your school a service?
There are places (and not just psychiatry) to go for genuine spiritual enrichment. There are people who really have devoted their intellect, their souls, and their lives to ways that we can connect with our higher selves or higher powers.
Katie isn't one of them, and for you to represent that she is, is wrong.
You don't seem as far gone as some of the Katie apologists who have shown up here, (although you could just be trying a new tactic) but no matter -- anyone who decides to check Katie out based on your reports is accepting bait as nourishment, and risks paying a far higher price than you have.
I want to focus on an angle you don't seem to have considered.
The metaphor of a worm on a fishhook appears ITT a few times. Anticult brought it up first, and it's really influenced my own thinking.
You write of benefits you've derived from the work as if they're important, or even relevant. They are not.
The benefits you may have derived from the Work are beside the point.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Worm of Byron Katie provides some nourishment, in part because she appears to have plagiarized the 4 questions and a turnaround from someone competent. But the Work, like a Worm on a fishing line, is not there to nourish you.
Katie doesn't give away the work so that it will help anyone's spiritual growth. She sets it as bait. And for you to talk about bait as if it's food is misguided and misleading.
You might experience benefits from the worksheets, and you might be one of the ones who doesn't get hooked into turning over your money and your mind to BKI. That's great for you, and if you want to seek psychic nourishment at the end of a spiked hook, that's your business.
The problem with your anecdotal report is that you are not actually providing useful info to others.
First, the persuasion systems Katie uses are invisible to the uninformed, so your representations that you've made a free will choice cannot be relied on.
Second, you appear not to have important insider info. (Although you to dismiss the new info you learn for reasons that are either boneheaded or incoherent.)
Just as it's dangerous for a fish to seek nourishment at the end of fishhook, it's dangerous for spiritual seekers to confound bait with food. And it's even more dangerous for those deluded seekers to advertise to the public that bait IS food. 'Cause it's not.
I have never used street drugs, but I've heard that the first few times people take them, their experiences are often great. And the pushers frequently give drugs out for free and then see who comes back.
So someone writing about using cocaine 5 or 6 times might well say, yeah, I snorted this stuff up my nose, I've heard some bad things about it, but I felt great, on top of the world! I was able to stay at work till 3 am and get twice as much work done as the other people on the team. The clients are thrilled and I'm sure I'll get that promotion! And when I got home to my boyfriend -- the sex was !!!111!!!!
Well, that sounds like a great recommendation for coke! We should all try it, if that's what it does. And what's with these Puritanical anti-drug Luddites, who just don't want to see people reach all of their potential and really enjoy life.
The thing is, that glowing new user report on cocaine is not the whole story; it's a dangerous half-truth.
Most people who try any drug, AFAIK, don't get hooked and don't really even experience lasting damage. I think that's true for most people who come into contact with any cultic group.
But what happens to the people who do get hooked is so awful that not telling the whole story simply isn't fair, and doesn't justify the experiences of the ones who got away unscathed.
And I'll add that the violent, exploitative distribution systems drug users support by engaging in what they think is a private habit or an adult choice is part of the problem, too.
The thing with drugs, and bait, for that matter, is that the risks are so high, they aren't worth the rewards, any rewards. If you were a fish, and Katie were a fisherwoman, would your glowing reports really be doing the other fish in your school a service?
There are places (and not just psychiatry) to go for genuine spiritual enrichment. There are people who really have devoted their intellect, their souls, and their lives to ways that we can connect with our higher selves or higher powers.
Katie isn't one of them, and for you to represent that she is, is wrong.
You don't seem as far gone as some of the Katie apologists who have shown up here, (although you could just be trying a new tactic) but no matter -- anyone who decides to check Katie out based on your reports is accepting bait as nourishment, and risks paying a far higher price than you have.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 07, 2009 05:25PM
With regard to subjective experience, I would like to make the point that there is a percentage of people who are, for whatever reason, unable to feel empathy with others. They are able to acknowledge feelings in themselves but not accord that same capacity to others.
It is estimated that approximately 10% of any given population has this lack. In neuroscience this is seen in the lack of 'mirror neurons' in a persons brain. Mirror neurons are thought to be involved in the aquisition of language, the ability to imitate behaviour and the ability to feel empathy for others. It is also theorised that their lack is involved with the spectrum of autism.
mirror neurons
Historically these persons are able to establish power over others due to a lack of acknowledgement of our common humanity or a lack of conscience when pursuing their goals.
This may be seen as being off-track in this thread but I believe it is vital to acknowledge--without tipping into paranoia--- that not all people are able or wish to be particularly well-intentioned towards their fellows.
The assumption that all people are on some hidden level operating in the interests of "good of all" has much to do with allowing con artists, gurus and other tyrants to aquire and keep their power.
It is a common mistake when finding one aspect of a person or system attractive to assume that the whole person or system is equally beneficial---and vice versa.
We really do need to develop a fine degree of discrimination when assessing the vast amounts of contradictory information being pushed at us every day.
It is estimated that approximately 10% of any given population has this lack. In neuroscience this is seen in the lack of 'mirror neurons' in a persons brain. Mirror neurons are thought to be involved in the aquisition of language, the ability to imitate behaviour and the ability to feel empathy for others. It is also theorised that their lack is involved with the spectrum of autism.
mirror neurons
Historically these persons are able to establish power over others due to a lack of acknowledgement of our common humanity or a lack of conscience when pursuing their goals.
This may be seen as being off-track in this thread but I believe it is vital to acknowledge--without tipping into paranoia--- that not all people are able or wish to be particularly well-intentioned towards their fellows.
The assumption that all people are on some hidden level operating in the interests of "good of all" has much to do with allowing con artists, gurus and other tyrants to aquire and keep their power.
It is a common mistake when finding one aspect of a person or system attractive to assume that the whole person or system is equally beneficial---and vice versa.
We really do need to develop a fine degree of discrimination when assessing the vast amounts of contradictory information being pushed at us every day.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 07, 2009 05:27PM
Incorrect, there most certainly is such a suggestion from Ms. Katie. A quote from her website:Quote
Stoic
'If that's what you want for yourself, to be without any story, then go for it with all you've got. But... what if you really go to town with "the work" and in the long run end up going.... crazy? '
There is no suggestion to go for it with all you've got.
I often say, if you really want to be free, have The Work for breakfast. Have it for lunch. Have it for dinner. The more you do inquiry, the more it undoes you.
I imagine The Anticult could do a nice analysis on that extreme suggestion to would-be work-ers.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 07, 2009 05:41PM
Excellent metaphor, Christa, thanks for that.Quote
Christa
So someone writing about using cocaine 5 or 6 times might well say, yeah, I snorted this stuff up my nose, I've heard some bad things about it, but I felt great, on top of the world! I was able to stay at work till 3 am and get twice as much work done as the other people on the team. The clients are thrilled and I'm sure I'll get that promotion! And when I got home to my boyfriend -- the sex was !!!111!!!!
Well, that sounds like a great recommendation for coke! We should all try it, if that's what it does. And what's with these Puritanical anti-drug Luddites, who just don't want to see people reach all of their potential and really enjoy life.
The thing is, that glowing new user report on cocaine is not the whole story; it's a dangerous half-truth.
Also thanks to The Anticult for the terrific and virtually thankless job he/she has taken on here for quite a while now. I've received quite an education about powerful persuasion and related phenomena with the happy result that I've avoided getting sucked deeply into what I find to be a deviously harmful "personal growth" modality.
Information = Power!
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 07, 2009 07:22PM
'Quote:
Stoic
'If that's what you want for yourself, to be without any story, then go for it with all you've got. But... what if you really go to town with "the work" and in the long run end up going.... crazy? '
There is no suggestion to go for it with all you've got.
Incorrect, there most certainly is such a suggestion from Ms. Katie. A quote from her website:
I often say, if you really want to be free, have The Work for breakfast. Have it for lunch. Have it for dinner. The more you do inquiry, the more it undoes you.
I imagine The Anticult could do a nice analysis on that extreme suggestion to would-be work-ers.'
'Go for it with all you've got' was YOUR wording, Helpme2times, and YOUR spin on what was written by Kassy--regardless of whether or not she proves to be an apologist. I was pointing out that regardless of what you read into her post she had at no point advocated 'Go for it with all you've got'--those were your words.
I don't speak for Kassy or for BK or for anyone else, for that matter, except myself.
Extreme positions of any kind carry extreme risk. 'Go for it with all you've got' sounds like an extreme position to me and a recipe for tunnel vision as well as an open invitation for any shrewd operator to take advantage.
Stoic
'If that's what you want for yourself, to be without any story, then go for it with all you've got. But... what if you really go to town with "the work" and in the long run end up going.... crazy? '
There is no suggestion to go for it with all you've got.
Incorrect, there most certainly is such a suggestion from Ms. Katie. A quote from her website:
I often say, if you really want to be free, have The Work for breakfast. Have it for lunch. Have it for dinner. The more you do inquiry, the more it undoes you.
I imagine The Anticult could do a nice analysis on that extreme suggestion to would-be work-ers.'
'Go for it with all you've got' was YOUR wording, Helpme2times, and YOUR spin on what was written by Kassy--regardless of whether or not she proves to be an apologist. I was pointing out that regardless of what you read into her post she had at no point advocated 'Go for it with all you've got'--those were your words.
I don't speak for Kassy or for BK or for anyone else, for that matter, except myself.
Extreme positions of any kind carry extreme risk. 'Go for it with all you've got' sounds like an extreme position to me and a recipe for tunnel vision as well as an open invitation for any shrewd operator to take advantage.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 07, 2009 07:25PM
Information = Power!
Information is only ever information. It is what you subsequently do with the information that gives it power or not.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 07, 2009 08:50PM
Kassy:
kassy:
"APA" is a "cult"?
Very bizarre claim, which makes you seem somewhat like a Scientologist denouncing the mental health profession.
You appear to consistently value subjective experience above objective reality in your long posts defending Katie.
Your attempt to blame those abused by LGATs for their own injuries follows a similar pattern seen on other threads when proponents for such groups post here.
Typical comments from such folks range from "It's not for everybody" to "They chose to join and continue and be a part of it. They are adults making their own decisions...responsible for their choices."
Of course this completely discounts the power of coercive persuasion.
See [www.culteducation.com]
In this self-serving construct ironically everyone must take responsibility for what they do with the glaring exception of LGATs and their leaders. And never mind how they hurt people through their practices and programs.
What seems to run consistently through many of the posts by LGAT apologists is a kind of self-centered, obsessive focus on their own subjective experience, with an almost total absence of empathy or even sympathy for LGAT causalities.
It seems for these folks the mantra is, "It makes me feel good and that's all that matters."
Frankly, this comes across as a narcissistic delusion, facilitated by LGAT leaders through their assorted programs.
kassy:
"APA" is a "cult"?
Very bizarre claim, which makes you seem somewhat like a Scientologist denouncing the mental health profession.
You appear to consistently value subjective experience above objective reality in your long posts defending Katie.
Your attempt to blame those abused by LGATs for their own injuries follows a similar pattern seen on other threads when proponents for such groups post here.
Typical comments from such folks range from "It's not for everybody" to "They chose to join and continue and be a part of it. They are adults making their own decisions...responsible for their choices."
Of course this completely discounts the power of coercive persuasion.
See [www.culteducation.com]
In this self-serving construct ironically everyone must take responsibility for what they do with the glaring exception of LGATs and their leaders. And never mind how they hurt people through their practices and programs.
What seems to run consistently through many of the posts by LGAT apologists is a kind of self-centered, obsessive focus on their own subjective experience, with an almost total absence of empathy or even sympathy for LGAT causalities.
It seems for these folks the mantra is, "It makes me feel good and that's all that matters."
Frankly, this comes across as a narcissistic delusion, facilitated by LGAT leaders through their assorted programs.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 07, 2009 11:28PM
Hmmm.Quote
Stoic
I don't speak for Kassy or for BK or for anyone else, for that matter, except myself.
Extreme positions of any kind carry extreme risk. 'Go for it with all you've got' sounds like an extreme position to me and a recipe for tunnel vision as well as an open invitation for any shrewd operator to take advantage.
How fascinating that this thread about BYRON KATIE has somehow gotten "turned around" onto me.
When you first popped into this thread, you said:
I've been following this thread with fascination as I think you're quite right that Byron Katie is using every trick and technique known to man of covert, coercive persuasion.
How wonderful (my opinion) that you would seem to be on the same page as most post-ers here.
You also said in your first BK post,
I'd like to make the point that one thing that I have found most helpful in dealing with these abusive and controlling coercive types is to concentrate on my own feelings, thoughts, reactions and behaviour as that is the only area where I have any control at all.
Why then are you on this board that is focused on Byron Katie? Why not simply attend to your "own feelings, thoughts, reactions and behaviour" - rather than give a li'l lecture here about it, yet not apparently be able to follow your own advice?
Hmmm.
Let's try sticking to the topic of Byron Katie, shall we?
I must say that I've been detecting the scent of a certain "random" person in the air of late... perhaps here, perhaps in some of the comments on Salerno's blog, perhaps elsewhere...
Apparently I've got a new mantra and it's Hmmm....
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 08, 2009 12:52AM
I've discovered that a seemingly female entity has recently commented on the first Guruphiliac blog entry about Byron Katie (dated 02/23/08). That person in their comment mentions the Stoics.
Am noticing this with some interest, since we have someone new in our midst going by the name "Stoic".
Am noticing this with some interest, since we have someone new in our midst going by the name "Stoic".
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