Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
kassy
()
Date: July 07, 2009 04:55AM
"""Janaki in her very informative blog has touched upon this possibility - see "Downsides of The Work""".
Most of what Janaki notices and points out makes sense to me, but then again, this is how humans are when they get in organizations with eachother. But the actual method, the one detailed in Loving What Is, seems like simple common sense. So, that people use it in deranged, self-hurtful ways, that is to be expected. Because people can take anything and use it that way. But asking of any suffering thought, is it true? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How does this thought affect me? How would I be without that thought, and trying out the opposite.
That's a clever method and useful. As to the throwing people out, the reasons given make sense to me. That the purpose there is to utilize that practice and get advise and it is disruptive to the curiculum, it's not the place to debate it's merits, or say that Byron Katie is mean even if the method is "insane", and Byron Katie is mean. It's understandable why she may have taken that action. Smooth running ship.
However I agree with Janaki overall, that sitting there all day doing the Work worksheets is not healthy. It's healthy to be living life, doing activities, taking care of oneself and when insecure, depressed, or anxious thinking is getting in the way of doing those things, questioning the ideas behind them as to their validity. If that's not good enough, and the anxiety is so intense adding other practices in, yoga, tai chi, buddhist meditation, counseling, therapy and if really necessary anxiety medication. (maybe herbal remedies first, lol)
Whether it's byron Katie's method, some other method, just simple self-examination, I think everyone does this anyway. Even mainstream psychology uses similar critical examination. For me, I use all means necessary.
Most of what Janaki notices and points out makes sense to me, but then again, this is how humans are when they get in organizations with eachother. But the actual method, the one detailed in Loving What Is, seems like simple common sense. So, that people use it in deranged, self-hurtful ways, that is to be expected. Because people can take anything and use it that way. But asking of any suffering thought, is it true? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How does this thought affect me? How would I be without that thought, and trying out the opposite.
That's a clever method and useful. As to the throwing people out, the reasons given make sense to me. That the purpose there is to utilize that practice and get advise and it is disruptive to the curiculum, it's not the place to debate it's merits, or say that Byron Katie is mean even if the method is "insane", and Byron Katie is mean. It's understandable why she may have taken that action. Smooth running ship.
However I agree with Janaki overall, that sitting there all day doing the Work worksheets is not healthy. It's healthy to be living life, doing activities, taking care of oneself and when insecure, depressed, or anxious thinking is getting in the way of doing those things, questioning the ideas behind them as to their validity. If that's not good enough, and the anxiety is so intense adding other practices in, yoga, tai chi, buddhist meditation, counseling, therapy and if really necessary anxiety medication. (maybe herbal remedies first, lol)
Whether it's byron Katie's method, some other method, just simple self-examination, I think everyone does this anyway. Even mainstream psychology uses similar critical examination. For me, I use all means necessary.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and distraction, deflection, denial
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 07, 2009 05:26AM
well, here we go again!
This is the reason why the Byron Katie system is so clever, because it is able to dupe many people, and also be framed in a way to try dupe people.
There are actually very few "ideas" in the Byron Katie system, the NonDual stuff is really more about just creating confusion in people, which is the primary technique.
For example, the 4 Questions operate like the worm on a fish-hook, to get people to bite into them, and then BK can reel them in, one step at a time.
The 4 Questions of Byron Katie have been debunked before in detail, by a number of people.
(The Work, in terms of the 4 Questions and a Turnaround, is a clever "gimmick"). [forum.culteducation.com]
The Turnaround does not work, what it does is create excessive self-blame, and self-guilt, and that creates depression. That is intentional, as then people are lured into the Byron Katie seminars and "coaching" systems.
Why are there so many people making so much money off the Byron Katie coaching systems, if it worked? It doesn't work. It creates momentary Dissociation, and then that creates even more problems.
And there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that the Byron Katie questions work at all. The burden of proof is on those who are selling these products. They have done ZERO scientific studies, and they just sell by anecdotes.
It does not work for PTSD and trauma. It has no psychological value at all. How do we know this fact? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS IN THEIR OWN DISCLAIMERS.
Notice the astounding hypocrisy between their advertising and claims, and their disclaimers.
BYRON KATIE - RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]
The comment that its "speculation" about the abusive activies of the Byron Katie seminars, is obviously false. There are countless detailed reports and analysis of what is going on at these seminars. Its not about selling books and stuff, of course, that part is easy to see.
Its about the LGAT seminars she does, which deeply indocrinate people, and many of those same people get lured deeply into the Byron Katie system.
Byron Katie and "The Work" Participant Reports [forum.culteducation.com]
The good thing about a forum like this though, is people demand real evidence and facts. And are not swayed by someone who is either a True Believer and follower, or some who makes money selling these "coaching services" and is trying to create misdirection.
The so-called Questions by Byron Katie are only maybe 10%, at most, of what Byron Katie does.
Its a bait-and-switch technique.
The Questions and Turnaround were designed by Byron Katie, to draw people in closer to her, to lure them in. And it never ends. People get sucked further into her seminars, and start working for her for free for years, handing over large amounts of money, Love-Bombs, and everything else that is detailed in these threads.
So yes, there are plenty of true believers who have been indocrinated into the Byron Katie system.
And there are also, dozens of highly skilled persuaders, who make a lot of money doing Byron Katie coaching, and they fear their methods and the reality of what is being done are being exposed.
This is the reason why the Byron Katie system is so clever, because it is able to dupe many people, and also be framed in a way to try dupe people.
There are actually very few "ideas" in the Byron Katie system, the NonDual stuff is really more about just creating confusion in people, which is the primary technique.
For example, the 4 Questions operate like the worm on a fish-hook, to get people to bite into them, and then BK can reel them in, one step at a time.
The 4 Questions of Byron Katie have been debunked before in detail, by a number of people.
(The Work, in terms of the 4 Questions and a Turnaround, is a clever "gimmick"). [forum.culteducation.com]
The Turnaround does not work, what it does is create excessive self-blame, and self-guilt, and that creates depression. That is intentional, as then people are lured into the Byron Katie seminars and "coaching" systems.
Why are there so many people making so much money off the Byron Katie coaching systems, if it worked? It doesn't work. It creates momentary Dissociation, and then that creates even more problems.
And there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that the Byron Katie questions work at all. The burden of proof is on those who are selling these products. They have done ZERO scientific studies, and they just sell by anecdotes.
It does not work for PTSD and trauma. It has no psychological value at all. How do we know this fact? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS IN THEIR OWN DISCLAIMERS.
Notice the astounding hypocrisy between their advertising and claims, and their disclaimers.
BYRON KATIE - RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]
The comment that its "speculation" about the abusive activies of the Byron Katie seminars, is obviously false. There are countless detailed reports and analysis of what is going on at these seminars. Its not about selling books and stuff, of course, that part is easy to see.
Its about the LGAT seminars she does, which deeply indocrinate people, and many of those same people get lured deeply into the Byron Katie system.
Byron Katie and "The Work" Participant Reports [forum.culteducation.com]
The good thing about a forum like this though, is people demand real evidence and facts. And are not swayed by someone who is either a True Believer and follower, or some who makes money selling these "coaching services" and is trying to create misdirection.
The so-called Questions by Byron Katie are only maybe 10%, at most, of what Byron Katie does.
Its a bait-and-switch technique.
The Questions and Turnaround were designed by Byron Katie, to draw people in closer to her, to lure them in. And it never ends. People get sucked further into her seminars, and start working for her for free for years, handing over large amounts of money, Love-Bombs, and everything else that is detailed in these threads.
So yes, there are plenty of true believers who have been indocrinated into the Byron Katie system.
And there are also, dozens of highly skilled persuaders, who make a lot of money doing Byron Katie coaching, and they fear their methods and the reality of what is being done are being exposed.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
kassy
()
Date: July 07, 2009 06:26AM
To Anticult, first I am not a True Believe or a Coach. My primary means of spiritual practice is Advaitic Self-inquiry which is similar. But I'm not a devotee of Byron Katie. I am impressed with her teachings and writings and what I've seen of her on Youtube. I have no intention of joining any organization. So I'm speaking as a free agent, and outsider.
"""well, here we go again!
This is the reason why the Byron Katie system is so clever, because it is able to dupe many people, and also be framed in a way to try dupe people.
There are actually very few "ideas" in the Byron Katie system, the NonDual stuff is really more about just creating confusion in people, which is the primary technique.
For example, the 4 Questions operate like the worm on a fish-hook, to get people to bite into them, and then BK can reel them in, one step at a time."""
Back that up, give examples, give facts. O.K, you have, I'll read them.
""""The 4 Questions of Byron Katie have been debunked before in detail, by a number of people.
(The Work, in terms of the 4 Questions and a Turnaround, is a clever "gimmick"). [forum.culteducation.com]"""
You certainly have a right to your opinion, not everybody shares your opinion.
"""The comment that its "speculation" about the abusive activies of the Byron Katie seminars, is obviously false. There are countless detailed reports and analysis of what is going on at these seminars. Its not about selling books and stuff, of course, that part is easy to see.
Its about the LGAT seminars she does, which deeply indocrinate people, and many of those same people get lured deeply into the Byron Katie system."""
If you are talking about the seminars that show up on Youtube and google video which are what I've been exposed to, I just don't see it. Personally, I don't see anything remotely indoctrinating in her question/answer sessions taht are available on Youtube. Does she somewhere else hit people and emotionally abuse them, then yeah, that's messed up. (again I'll read the reports and comment on them) Or does her organizatoin try to make people completely reliant on it and give up the autonomy in their lives, I have trouble believing that, but if that is true, please share the facts, not just polemics. But the question/answer sessions I've seen I find her line of questioning and dialogue very sane, and rational. Obviously as a matter of taste someone might disagree with me.
"""It does not work for PTSD and trauma. It has no psychological value at all. How do we know this fact? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS IN THEIR OWN DISCLAIMERS.
Notice the astounding hypocrisy between their advertising and claims, and their disclaimers.
BYRON KATIE - RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]"""
Someone pointed the direction to peer review, scientific literature that Byron Katie's work has been shown to be effective at counseling. But I haven't read the paper yet so I don't know. As far as release of liability that makes sense. It seems a little off for that organization to be taking on the role of having counselors, does it? Regardless as far as the actual teachings in Loving what Is, I keep saying they seem like sound common sense because thy are. Questioning thoughts. In my own case the turn-around isn't to accept a counter-theory (feeling shame) but to upset the certainty in the first theory. So I present to myself the alternative. Ex: I think I'm having a heart attack (I've had this happen common phobic hypochondriacal anxiety). I don't have the symptoms of heart attack. It's psychological. So I question those thoughts, I could use Byron Katie's method.
She was adament that you go through the other 4 questions and sit with them before doing the turn-around otherwise the turn-around will seem harsh and self-judgemental. So whether you agree that she dealt with it satisfactorially, she was aware of that, and did talk about that. The turn-around "I am not having a heart attack" is to upset the certainty in what is a thought pattern of habitual anxiety so it lets up. I've seen nothing so useful or practical in therapy that I have engaged in. That doesn't mean that therapists out there don't have techniques that are equally valid. But I've gotten more the "lets talk about your childhood". My childhood is over, I've have no lasting trauma. Current events are where the problems are. I've been very unimpressed with the therapy. I went to a psychiatrist, they almost diagnosed me with schizophrenia, I have Asperger's. Why? Because it's not hard science. It's qualitative. If I have a tumor, they do an X-ray. I have schizophrenia, they make me fill out a questionaire, answer questions that are subjective. It's to a large extent B.S.
"""The so-called Questions by Byron Katie are only maybe 10%, at most, of what Byron Katie does.
Its a bait-and-switch technique.
The Questions and Turnaround were designed by Byron Katie, to draw people in closer to her, to lure them in. And it never ends. People get sucked further into her seminars, and start working for her for free for years, handing over large amounts of money, Love-Bombs, and everything else that is detailed in these threads.
So yes, there are plenty of true believers who have been indocrinated into the Byron Katie system.
And there are also, dozens of highly skilled persuaders, who make a lot of money doing Byron Katie coaching, and they fear their methods and the reality of what is being done are being exposed."""
I've read that book, I'm sorry I find it laughable the idea that she designed those questions as a calculated fishing hook. Even if her organization is really culty and causes people to give up their independence which is messed up, that is not true. It's too sincerely written, and it works. So on some level, she would have to be sincere even if what she's creating is messed up, which I'm not saying it is because I don't know. Her story which is totally plausible and believable is that she noticed when you don't question your thoughts you suffer. I've noticed that myself, it's like water is H2O or don't drink isopropyl alcohol. Use tiolet paper. Even if a manipulative organization is started that is based on that people should wipe their ass, it's still good advise. It doesn't discredit the advise even if there are all sorts of crooked sycophants making a buck on someone else's vulnerability being exploited.
"""well, here we go again!
This is the reason why the Byron Katie system is so clever, because it is able to dupe many people, and also be framed in a way to try dupe people.
There are actually very few "ideas" in the Byron Katie system, the NonDual stuff is really more about just creating confusion in people, which is the primary technique.
For example, the 4 Questions operate like the worm on a fish-hook, to get people to bite into them, and then BK can reel them in, one step at a time."""
Back that up, give examples, give facts. O.K, you have, I'll read them.
""""The 4 Questions of Byron Katie have been debunked before in detail, by a number of people.
(The Work, in terms of the 4 Questions and a Turnaround, is a clever "gimmick"). [forum.culteducation.com]"""
You certainly have a right to your opinion, not everybody shares your opinion.
"""The comment that its "speculation" about the abusive activies of the Byron Katie seminars, is obviously false. There are countless detailed reports and analysis of what is going on at these seminars. Its not about selling books and stuff, of course, that part is easy to see.
Its about the LGAT seminars she does, which deeply indocrinate people, and many of those same people get lured deeply into the Byron Katie system."""
If you are talking about the seminars that show up on Youtube and google video which are what I've been exposed to, I just don't see it. Personally, I don't see anything remotely indoctrinating in her question/answer sessions taht are available on Youtube. Does she somewhere else hit people and emotionally abuse them, then yeah, that's messed up. (again I'll read the reports and comment on them) Or does her organizatoin try to make people completely reliant on it and give up the autonomy in their lives, I have trouble believing that, but if that is true, please share the facts, not just polemics. But the question/answer sessions I've seen I find her line of questioning and dialogue very sane, and rational. Obviously as a matter of taste someone might disagree with me.
"""It does not work for PTSD and trauma. It has no psychological value at all. How do we know this fact? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS IN THEIR OWN DISCLAIMERS.
Notice the astounding hypocrisy between their advertising and claims, and their disclaimers.
BYRON KATIE - RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]"""
Someone pointed the direction to peer review, scientific literature that Byron Katie's work has been shown to be effective at counseling. But I haven't read the paper yet so I don't know. As far as release of liability that makes sense. It seems a little off for that organization to be taking on the role of having counselors, does it? Regardless as far as the actual teachings in Loving what Is, I keep saying they seem like sound common sense because thy are. Questioning thoughts. In my own case the turn-around isn't to accept a counter-theory (feeling shame) but to upset the certainty in the first theory. So I present to myself the alternative. Ex: I think I'm having a heart attack (I've had this happen common phobic hypochondriacal anxiety). I don't have the symptoms of heart attack. It's psychological. So I question those thoughts, I could use Byron Katie's method.
She was adament that you go through the other 4 questions and sit with them before doing the turn-around otherwise the turn-around will seem harsh and self-judgemental. So whether you agree that she dealt with it satisfactorially, she was aware of that, and did talk about that. The turn-around "I am not having a heart attack" is to upset the certainty in what is a thought pattern of habitual anxiety so it lets up. I've seen nothing so useful or practical in therapy that I have engaged in. That doesn't mean that therapists out there don't have techniques that are equally valid. But I've gotten more the "lets talk about your childhood". My childhood is over, I've have no lasting trauma. Current events are where the problems are. I've been very unimpressed with the therapy. I went to a psychiatrist, they almost diagnosed me with schizophrenia, I have Asperger's. Why? Because it's not hard science. It's qualitative. If I have a tumor, they do an X-ray. I have schizophrenia, they make me fill out a questionaire, answer questions that are subjective. It's to a large extent B.S.
"""The so-called Questions by Byron Katie are only maybe 10%, at most, of what Byron Katie does.
Its a bait-and-switch technique.
The Questions and Turnaround were designed by Byron Katie, to draw people in closer to her, to lure them in. And it never ends. People get sucked further into her seminars, and start working for her for free for years, handing over large amounts of money, Love-Bombs, and everything else that is detailed in these threads.
So yes, there are plenty of true believers who have been indocrinated into the Byron Katie system.
And there are also, dozens of highly skilled persuaders, who make a lot of money doing Byron Katie coaching, and they fear their methods and the reality of what is being done are being exposed."""
I've read that book, I'm sorry I find it laughable the idea that she designed those questions as a calculated fishing hook. Even if her organization is really culty and causes people to give up their independence which is messed up, that is not true. It's too sincerely written, and it works. So on some level, she would have to be sincere even if what she's creating is messed up, which I'm not saying it is because I don't know. Her story which is totally plausible and believable is that she noticed when you don't question your thoughts you suffer. I've noticed that myself, it's like water is H2O or don't drink isopropyl alcohol. Use tiolet paper. Even if a manipulative organization is started that is based on that people should wipe their ass, it's still good advise. It doesn't discredit the advise even if there are all sorts of crooked sycophants making a buck on someone else's vulnerability being exploited.
Re: Byron Katie,PTSD trauma, "accept any and all risks of injury or death"
Posted by:
kassy
()
Date: July 07, 2009 06:45AM
Anticult, I read the liability. There's nothing wrong with that. That makes perfect sense.
Why should they be liable for those things? I wouldn't go to a seminar for medical treatment,
or mental health medical treatment. That's the thing psychiatry, and psychology have not
driven spirituality and wisdom to being obsolete. Byron Katie is writing, and talking about
wisdom, and careful inward discrimination. Those are not medical issues. It would be stupid
to go there and think I'm going to get treatment when I intend myself self-harm.
I doubt really anyone is that stupid, but if they are, there's the liability agreement. Thankfully.
Why should they be liable for those things? I wouldn't go to a seminar for medical treatment,
or mental health medical treatment. That's the thing psychiatry, and psychology have not
driven spirituality and wisdom to being obsolete. Byron Katie is writing, and talking about
wisdom, and careful inward discrimination. Those are not medical issues. It would be stupid
to go there and think I'm going to get treatment when I intend myself self-harm.
I doubt really anyone is that stupid, but if they are, there's the liability agreement. Thankfully.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
kassy
()
Date: July 07, 2009 07:19AM
From guruphiliac: (I thought this sums it up) Exactly my perspective but I still like Byron Katie herself and her teachings.
Saturday, February 23, 2008
Byron Katie Is Either Going To Enlighten You Or Kill You Trying
File under: The Siddhi of PR
We've never felt much impetus to go after Byron Katie. Good friends are close to her, and all in all, she's not trying to be the font of everything magical and divine, as far as we can tell.
But we don't think you could pay us enough to go to one of her intensives after a reader turned us on to a message board post written by someone who did:
1. A forced 36 hour fast.
2. An day long "outing" where we were left to beg for food among homeless people in the streets of Los Angeles. We were instructed not to take any ID, or anything with us but the clothes we had on.
3. A rich organic diet that sent many people's bodies into shock. Vomiting was a regular occurrence, and was offered as "evidence" of cleansing, and of how powerful The Work really is.
4. Long days with brief breaks for meals. (7 am to 11:00 pm most days.)
5. Long, intense confessional sessions.
6. Deep, excessive probing into one's past traumas. (She used violent Korn music to trigger our worst memories.)
7. No contact with family or the outside world. (We turned our cell phones into the staff.)
8. Not allowed to wear make-up, to exercise, or to eat outside of the diet given.
9. Eating meals and taking breaks in complete silence.
10. Going at least 2 full days as a "silent one", unallowed to talk with others.
11. Being invited to criticize Katie and The School, and those who did were silently, subtly shunned by the group and Katie.
12. Having every doubt and concern about what was going on at The School questioned and "turned around", until no one could trust their own perceptions anymore.
It's all seeming quite culty to us. Her nice lady image aside, it sounds a lot more like psych-ops being run at a CIA black site than anything that could be worth paying for, let alone make you enlightened. Unless being tortured is the kind of thing gets you off. It's certainly all the rage these days.
Update: We just got off the phone with our formerly-inside man. He asked us to communicate two points about the above. The first is that all of these exercises are entirely optional. In his experience (he's taught approximately 700 people in The Work), no one has been mal-vibed by the staff for not participating in any of these practices. Nor does his experience reflect any kind of subtle shunning of those who opened up on The Work in the critiquing session.
The point of these practices is to take folks out of their regular self-image and personality habits, hopefully to engender a quasi-objective platform of self-analysis from which The Work may continue. You're still going to have to pay us to go through any of this, but at least it's not the cult indoctrination operation it seemed to the person who wrote the message board post.
Saturday, February 23, 2008
Byron Katie Is Either Going To Enlighten You Or Kill You Trying
File under: The Siddhi of PR
We've never felt much impetus to go after Byron Katie. Good friends are close to her, and all in all, she's not trying to be the font of everything magical and divine, as far as we can tell.
But we don't think you could pay us enough to go to one of her intensives after a reader turned us on to a message board post written by someone who did:
1. A forced 36 hour fast.
2. An day long "outing" where we were left to beg for food among homeless people in the streets of Los Angeles. We were instructed not to take any ID, or anything with us but the clothes we had on.
3. A rich organic diet that sent many people's bodies into shock. Vomiting was a regular occurrence, and was offered as "evidence" of cleansing, and of how powerful The Work really is.
4. Long days with brief breaks for meals. (7 am to 11:00 pm most days.)
5. Long, intense confessional sessions.
6. Deep, excessive probing into one's past traumas. (She used violent Korn music to trigger our worst memories.)
7. No contact with family or the outside world. (We turned our cell phones into the staff.)
8. Not allowed to wear make-up, to exercise, or to eat outside of the diet given.
9. Eating meals and taking breaks in complete silence.
10. Going at least 2 full days as a "silent one", unallowed to talk with others.
11. Being invited to criticize Katie and The School, and those who did were silently, subtly shunned by the group and Katie.
12. Having every doubt and concern about what was going on at The School questioned and "turned around", until no one could trust their own perceptions anymore.
It's all seeming quite culty to us. Her nice lady image aside, it sounds a lot more like psych-ops being run at a CIA black site than anything that could be worth paying for, let alone make you enlightened. Unless being tortured is the kind of thing gets you off. It's certainly all the rage these days.
Update: We just got off the phone with our formerly-inside man. He asked us to communicate two points about the above. The first is that all of these exercises are entirely optional. In his experience (he's taught approximately 700 people in The Work), no one has been mal-vibed by the staff for not participating in any of these practices. Nor does his experience reflect any kind of subtle shunning of those who opened up on The Work in the critiquing session.
The point of these practices is to take folks out of their regular self-image and personality habits, hopefully to engender a quasi-objective platform of self-analysis from which The Work may continue. You're still going to have to pay us to go through any of this, but at least it's not the cult indoctrination operation it seemed to the person who wrote the message board post.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and internet marketing machine
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 07, 2009 07:25AM
The Byron Katie professional internet marketing machine, is going to try and turn up the volume. Its obvious that the analysis of Byron Katie is starting to get through to people, so they are going to try and blowback against the analysis of her persuasion methods.
Once the Byron Katie people can see even a TINY bit of the persuasion methods being used on them, it really messes up the BK persuasion system.
Because it plants that seed of doubt in people' minds, and it never leaves. Its always there in their mind, wondering what she is up to now, and why she is using these techniques on them.
It destroys her entire story.
and they are caught in a double-bind of their own making, in a self-made checkmate. As they try to represent Byron Katie as some mystical spirit, so they cannot admit she does ANY persuasion techniques on people. So they have to misdirect, and lie, and say she doesn't do anything.
But even a 12 year old child could see much of what she is doing to people.
So they are simply caught red-handed out in the open.
The only thing they can then do, is try to MISDIRECT people away from looking at Byron Katie's persuasion methods.
But as far as 99% of the mainstream media, they are not going to deal properly with Byron Katie, as there is no money in it for them. The mainstream media is about making profit, and they are very easy to manipulate with some high-priced PR people, who get find a "friendly" person in the media, to write Puff-Pieces. Its really a form of cloaked advertising.
The only media which could take on someone like Byron Katie, are the same media which could take on Landmark or Scientology, and you could count those media outlets on one hand in the USA.
Hopefully at some point, the Byron Katie situation will hit the radar of the real investigative journalists.
As in, sending in people with hidden cameras, and really looking at where the money goes, the unpaid "staff" and the many other issues.
To start, probably some journalists in Europe or elsewhere will be first. Maybe some investigative journalists in Amsterdam would take on the project?
It would require serious research, and similar to the Landmark and Scientology exposes, would require hidden cameras, and every other technique at the disposal of the investigative journalist.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2009 07:48AM by The Anticult.
Once the Byron Katie people can see even a TINY bit of the persuasion methods being used on them, it really messes up the BK persuasion system.
Because it plants that seed of doubt in people' minds, and it never leaves. Its always there in their mind, wondering what she is up to now, and why she is using these techniques on them.
It destroys her entire story.
and they are caught in a double-bind of their own making, in a self-made checkmate. As they try to represent Byron Katie as some mystical spirit, so they cannot admit she does ANY persuasion techniques on people. So they have to misdirect, and lie, and say she doesn't do anything.
But even a 12 year old child could see much of what she is doing to people.
So they are simply caught red-handed out in the open.
The only thing they can then do, is try to MISDIRECT people away from looking at Byron Katie's persuasion methods.
But as far as 99% of the mainstream media, they are not going to deal properly with Byron Katie, as there is no money in it for them. The mainstream media is about making profit, and they are very easy to manipulate with some high-priced PR people, who get find a "friendly" person in the media, to write Puff-Pieces. Its really a form of cloaked advertising.
The only media which could take on someone like Byron Katie, are the same media which could take on Landmark or Scientology, and you could count those media outlets on one hand in the USA.
Hopefully at some point, the Byron Katie situation will hit the radar of the real investigative journalists.
As in, sending in people with hidden cameras, and really looking at where the money goes, the unpaid "staff" and the many other issues.
To start, probably some journalists in Europe or elsewhere will be first. Maybe some investigative journalists in Amsterdam would take on the project?
It would require serious research, and similar to the Landmark and Scientology exposes, would require hidden cameras, and every other technique at the disposal of the investigative journalist.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2009 07:48AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Ross Robinson, Korn, Evil Monito
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 07, 2009 07:57AM
Its a family business too, of course, with some of the kids.
BK's son Ross Robinson, is getting in on the PR act promoting the huge family business, in a recent interview for Evil Monito Magazine.
He's picked up the lingo...
"BLOWS MY MIND".
oh yes, Byron Katie wants to blow your mind alright.
Wash it (Mind-Cleanse), and blow-dry it, even take your mind to the cleaners.
and it harkens back the the Byron Katie often using the images of being robbed by a GUN. That will blow your mind out too.
Byron Katie constantly uses the phrase, BLOW YOUR MIND. [forum.culteducation.com] That is actually very precise and accurate.
They want to blow your mind right out.
[evilmonito.com]
QUOTE:
"EM: What is your current bedside read?
My step father’s: The Second Book of the Tao, Stephen Mitchell i have special parents (byron katie, stephen mitchell), blows my mind.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2009 08:04AM by The Anticult.
BK's son Ross Robinson, is getting in on the PR act promoting the huge family business, in a recent interview for Evil Monito Magazine.
He's picked up the lingo...
"BLOWS MY MIND".
oh yes, Byron Katie wants to blow your mind alright.
Wash it (Mind-Cleanse), and blow-dry it, even take your mind to the cleaners.
and it harkens back the the Byron Katie often using the images of being robbed by a GUN. That will blow your mind out too.
Byron Katie constantly uses the phrase, BLOW YOUR MIND. [forum.culteducation.com] That is actually very precise and accurate.
They want to blow your mind right out.
[evilmonito.com]
QUOTE:
"EM: What is your current bedside read?
My step father’s: The Second Book of the Tao, Stephen Mitchell i have special parents (byron katie, stephen mitchell), blows my mind.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2009 08:04AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 07, 2009 09:52AM
Kassy:
You seem to be here to spam the board with apologies for Byron Katie.
Like Ms. Katie though, you lack the credentials to comment with any credibility regarding psychological, emotional issues.
It seems like many LGAT (large group awareness training) participants you put too much weight upon subjective experience.
However, something more than anecdotal evidence is needed to validate the claims made by LGATs.
You seem to be here to spam the board with apologies for Byron Katie.
Like Ms. Katie though, you lack the credentials to comment with any credibility regarding psychological, emotional issues.
It seems like many LGAT (large group awareness training) participants you put too much weight upon subjective experience.
However, something more than anecdotal evidence is needed to validate the claims made by LGATs.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
kassy
()
Date: July 07, 2009 12:14PM
"""You seem to be here to spam the board with apologies for Byron Katie.
Like Ms. Katie though, you lack the credentials to comment with any credibility regarding psychological, emotional issues.
It seems like many LGAT (large group awareness training) participants you put too much weight upon subjective experience.
However, something more than anecdotal evidence is needed to validate the claims made by LGATs.""""
rrmoderator, i was pulled to comment on something since I see a different perspective. It's not intended as spam, but if it's taken as that, that is out of my control (lol) But maybe I shouldn't have put the thing by guruphiliac on there. (that seemed a little spammy, if it was, I apologize) The only reason I put it, is because that website which I think also specializes in cult awareness was very close to my perspective. Which is that, maybe the seminars are obnoxious, but her teachings themselves are good.
On the credibility. I have 100% credibility regarding my own psychological and emotional issues as does everyone. Everyone else has 0% credibility regarding my psychological and emotional issues. No counselor or politician or lawyer or psychiatrist has any clue as to the deepest workings of my subconscious emotional life and that's true for everyone. There is no science at this point about that. So it's free for all. What works, works. And of course cult-like organizations whether Lyndon Larouche, or the APA will tell me otherwise, and some will believe them. It's as I said a free for all. So you are right, I don't have any credibility as far as yours or anybody else's psychological and emotional issues. Nobody else does either.
Your last point however, is a good point, insofar as a group is trying to make some objective claim. If they are claiming our way is the right way, then where's the proof? If they are presenting some method, some teaching, and it helps others. Then they don't need to prove it to anyone or the broader community, it's proven to that individual, or all the individuals who are influenced.
It is of course non-objective because it deals with someone's subjective experience and how it is enhanced. And it doesn't matter if anyone disagrees because no one can really stop something like that. The proof is in the experience. I've had plenty of subjective, spriitual experiences, and they are inexplainable to those who have no clue as to experiences like that. And there's hardly any point in bringing them up, especially in an atmosphere where they will be invalidated without a second thought. I am a molecular bio. bac going on to a phD, my dad is a theoretical physicist, and it's a no brainer to me, but not to alot of people that subjective experiences are valid.
As far as apologies for byron Katie. I only know that I read Loving What is, and it is about as sensible of outlook, of philosophy as I've ever read. I didn't see a single problem with one sentence in that book, or any interview of dialogue I've seen with Byron Katie. That doesn't mean that she isn't a cult leader, that she isn't manipulative or abusive. But I have not seen any convincing evidence that she is seriously that way. Nor for me does it matter as to the teachings validity.
One thing I've noticed with some commenters that I really take issue with is calling someone insane. Even if the teachings and teacher are problematic as to their behavior, calling someone insane is a fairly immature way to invalidate them. Oh, they were in a halfway house, as if that means they can't come to great wisdom.
I'll stick up for anything that seems sensible, why not?
Like Ms. Katie though, you lack the credentials to comment with any credibility regarding psychological, emotional issues.
It seems like many LGAT (large group awareness training) participants you put too much weight upon subjective experience.
However, something more than anecdotal evidence is needed to validate the claims made by LGATs.""""
rrmoderator, i was pulled to comment on something since I see a different perspective. It's not intended as spam, but if it's taken as that, that is out of my control (lol) But maybe I shouldn't have put the thing by guruphiliac on there. (that seemed a little spammy, if it was, I apologize) The only reason I put it, is because that website which I think also specializes in cult awareness was very close to my perspective. Which is that, maybe the seminars are obnoxious, but her teachings themselves are good.
On the credibility. I have 100% credibility regarding my own psychological and emotional issues as does everyone. Everyone else has 0% credibility regarding my psychological and emotional issues. No counselor or politician or lawyer or psychiatrist has any clue as to the deepest workings of my subconscious emotional life and that's true for everyone. There is no science at this point about that. So it's free for all. What works, works. And of course cult-like organizations whether Lyndon Larouche, or the APA will tell me otherwise, and some will believe them. It's as I said a free for all. So you are right, I don't have any credibility as far as yours or anybody else's psychological and emotional issues. Nobody else does either.
Your last point however, is a good point, insofar as a group is trying to make some objective claim. If they are claiming our way is the right way, then where's the proof? If they are presenting some method, some teaching, and it helps others. Then they don't need to prove it to anyone or the broader community, it's proven to that individual, or all the individuals who are influenced.
It is of course non-objective because it deals with someone's subjective experience and how it is enhanced. And it doesn't matter if anyone disagrees because no one can really stop something like that. The proof is in the experience. I've had plenty of subjective, spriitual experiences, and they are inexplainable to those who have no clue as to experiences like that. And there's hardly any point in bringing them up, especially in an atmosphere where they will be invalidated without a second thought. I am a molecular bio. bac going on to a phD, my dad is a theoretical physicist, and it's a no brainer to me, but not to alot of people that subjective experiences are valid.
As far as apologies for byron Katie. I only know that I read Loving What is, and it is about as sensible of outlook, of philosophy as I've ever read. I didn't see a single problem with one sentence in that book, or any interview of dialogue I've seen with Byron Katie. That doesn't mean that she isn't a cult leader, that she isn't manipulative or abusive. But I have not seen any convincing evidence that she is seriously that way. Nor for me does it matter as to the teachings validity.
One thing I've noticed with some commenters that I really take issue with is calling someone insane. Even if the teachings and teacher are problematic as to their behavior, calling someone insane is a fairly immature way to invalidate them. Oh, they were in a halfway house, as if that means they can't come to great wisdom.
I'll stick up for anything that seems sensible, why not?
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
kassy
()
Date: July 07, 2009 12:41PM
"""It seems like many LGAT (large group awareness training) participants you put too much weight upon subjective experience.
However, something more than anecdotal evidence is needed to validate the claims made by LGATs."""
I think this is fine if you want to do an objective study on different things to say how they work, or if they don't work and then publishing the results. However, I think it would be fascist literally if no group could exist or was considered only a medical liability if it didn't have objective proof that it works. I don't think that's what you are proposing as it would be counter to freedom of assembly. But, it's something to keep in mind. I don't think all cults or groups that are non-mainstream or not scientifically validated should be banned unless there are illegal practices taking place. If I want to go to a spiritual guru for counseling even though he doesn't have a license, I should have that right. And infact I do, I correspond with a guru that i've gotten far more effective advise from then conselors because he is egoless and enlightened, which of course I don't expect you to believe.
However, something more than anecdotal evidence is needed to validate the claims made by LGATs."""
I think this is fine if you want to do an objective study on different things to say how they work, or if they don't work and then publishing the results. However, I think it would be fascist literally if no group could exist or was considered only a medical liability if it didn't have objective proof that it works. I don't think that's what you are proposing as it would be counter to freedom of assembly. But, it's something to keep in mind. I don't think all cults or groups that are non-mainstream or not scientifically validated should be banned unless there are illegal practices taking place. If I want to go to a spiritual guru for counseling even though he doesn't have a license, I should have that right. And infact I do, I correspond with a guru that i've gotten far more effective advise from then conselors because he is egoless and enlightened, which of course I don't expect you to believe.
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