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Trying to second-guess the perpetrators thinking is a bit of a red herring though and doesn't get you out of the manipulative game, it locks you further in.

Describing NLP techniques that are described in publications and then pointing out how they've crossed over from use by ethical medical professionals into unregulated for profit usage, and in contexts where the public isnt even aware of these techniques and could BECOME AWARE OF THEM if only these are discussed....this is not second guessing thought process.

Its like identifying a new pollutant in the atmosphere whose presence has not yet been identified and fully appreciated.

Fine grained descriptions of the actual mechanics of NLP --discussing this is the best way to get us OUT of the manipulative game. And Anticult has directed us to authors and to publications so that we can look this up in independent sources.

That is not second guessing. It tells the reader that there is a powerful set of tools for social influence out there, now being used to seep through our TV's and computer terminals and that to be fully and freely adult, we had better know these techniques exist, what they are called and be given the published sources so interested readers can look this up in venues independent of Anticult.

BTW a red herring was a bit of smelly fish. It was used to disrupt a scent trail and confuse hunting dogs who might otherwise have homed in on a man who was trying to escape. A fellow who didnt want the hunting dogs to catch up to him would exploit their sense of smell by thowing out some smelly fish--smoked red herring--to distract the dogs from their actual quarry--the man trying to escape.

Lets keep discussing NLP and..lets pay close attention to how any open discussion of it apparently gets reframed as 'noise' or as 'red herring' or as 'paranoia'.

In keeping with the Roman and Greek atmosphere, theres a question by Cicero
who asked, 'Cui bono?'

'Who benefits?'

Who benefits so long as the general public is mostly unaware of the existence of NLP, let alone its techniques?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2009 09:11PM by corboy.

[www.nizkor.org]

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Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:


Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

PS the Nizkor website has an entire list of rhetorical fallacies. A great, continuing education website.

also, these threads are not about trying to mind-read the "Intentions" of other people. As mentioned, that is a tactic that those who are being analyzed are trying to use to deflect criticism!

Its about carefully looking at the specific BEHAVIORS being carried out. Its the objective behaviors, and the actual factual evidence that is primary.
and its about analyzing the specific TECHNIQUES being used in their LGAT seminar, in their sales methods, phone coaching, etc.
This can all be objectively studied.

at the same time, when people are carrying out behaviors and techniques that deliberately misdirect and exploit other people, then its not too hard to figure out what their intentions are.
When you catch someone in their 100th brazen lie, then its not too hard to know what they are up to.


Also, one quick point about NLP...NLP is not really a "thing". What it is, is a way of modeling human behavior, COPYING it quickly. So if a person is a persuader, or hypnotherapist, or salesman, they go and figure out how to COPY it.
It just turns out that NLP got big-time into techniques of powerful covert persuasion and hypnotherapy, and then it all started to get abused by greedy hucksters.

and there are all sorts of tools that moved way beyond basic NLP years ago. The people at the top of that field are incredibly manipulative, and often incredibly intelligent and arrogant.
And never forget, when anyone from the NLP related fields are telling any type of "Story"...its not
"true" like a normal person, its strategic, and they will say literally anything with no basis in fact, and have no remorse whatsoever in doing this.
No need to learn that the hard way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2009 09:29PM by The Anticult.

also, by the way...the basic NLP techniques were initially designed to HELP people be more effective.
Same with the hypnotherapy stuff.
The techniques were originally used to help people be more generative, and more effective.

If the NLP guys like Stever Robbins were being up-front, they would ADMIT to the specific techniques being used, but say they are being used to help people. Then explain the precise techniques.


They would say...yes, she uses techniques to confuse and distract your conscious mind, and then manipulate your unconscious without your awareness...but she is doing it to HELP you.

But notice they don't say that.
Why not?

They try and pretend she is not doing anything, and neither are they.
Why?

Because they are busted red-handed, using the techniques not to help people, but to SELL expensive "high-margin" products and services. Because they are using the techniques to exploit others, for their own financial gain, and make millions of dollars.

Once a person understands the specific techniques and how they work, they can see the abuse of those techniques with their own eyes.

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And never forget, when anyone from the NLP related fields are telling any type of "Story"...its not "true" like a normal person, its strategic, and they will say literally anything with no basis in fact, and have no remorse whatsoever in doing this.
No need to learn that the hard way.

Its the difference between playing a game of cards using a clean deck, vs using a marked deck and not telling the mark that

a) there is such a thing as a marked deck

b) that the mark is being coaxed into a situation where a marked deck is being used.

When a marked deck is in covert use, it is no longer a game. It is a covert set up for theft, and exploitation of the targets trust.

And...guess what.

If you are a buddy and you see that your pal is being pulled into a set up where a marked deck is gonna be used, if you try to warn your friend, the card sharp will, if that cardsharp is an expert, find a way to tell the mark that YOU, their real friend
are trying to interefere with their adult autonomy by telling them not to sit at the table with the cardsharp, and that you are a paranoid killjoy with all your depressing downer talk about marked cards.

BTW, casinos actually look for ways to identify people who have figured out ways to crack their blackjack systems.

Twenty plus years ago, when super powerful portable preprogrammable calculators became available, I was taking a statistics class. The guy teaching the class I was in, had recently purchased one of the new preprogrammable calculators.

He tested its capabilities by loading it with some formulas. Then he went to a casino in Las Vegas and hit the blackjack table.

He beat the odds and made a nice sum.

But...this guy was a mathematician and not a profiteer. He was glad to see his new calculator was accurate, so he did this stunt just once. Most important, he was not a high risk type and wanted a quiet happy life. He didnt want the casino folks to get mad at him. Getting roughed up in a Las Vegas parking lot was not his idea of a good time.

If you are known to be good at beating house odds, any casino you go to will not be a game anymore. You'll be barred from casinos, precisely because you know enough math to thwart their system.

And..no one calls these casinos paranoid for barring people who are known to beat the house and no one accuses the casinos of presuming to pass judgement.

But unfortunately the average citizen doesnt understand that his or her mind and heart are as valuable as a casino.

And most citizens dont imagine that some are trying to get into their thought processes and do have techniques by which to 'beat the house'.

This is the Real Secret that They do not want the average citizen to know about.

And that is why this thread has been visited so often by disruptive types who dont want us talking about The Real Secret.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2009 10:04PM by corboy.

I completely agree with the points raised by Anti-Cult and Corboy in the above posts. And I can also see that you have a justifiable suspicion of me as a newcomer, I might indeed be yet another distractor or a skilled manipulator out deflect attention from the behaviours and practices of Byron Katie.

Thats not my point in posting though. I think you are doing a fine job at exposing these tactics and behaviours to a wider public, without that knowledge we are all sitting ducks.

My point was just to highlight that BK uses vague and wooly feel-good statements because she is well aware that less experienced listeners tend to fill in the gaps of those vague statements with their own wishful thinking--thus imputing their own fantasies of her as a loving god-woman grannie to be the real BK---in a sense they are projecting their own good thoughts onto her and at the same time handily avoid seeing what a grotesque con job is being pulled.

This is the danger when we start to second-guess another persons thoughts and this was the point I wanted to make.

My personal view is that BK is the puppetmaster here and is sufficiently wily enough to keep hold of all of the strings. She is masterful at the manipulation of power. I notice that on her Twitter account she only follows the likes of Oprah, not the rank and file of her followers, which to me demonstrates the power league she aspires to.
She has sufficient funds to buy in whatever expertise is available to further her persuasive techniques and I am sure she does just that as a policy of 'good' (as in effective) business practice.
She may have used the two other salespeople mentioned and probably did--but, though complicit, they are small-fry and discarded once their usefulness is over.

When I mentioned the 'red-herring' it was simply to point out that concentrating on the guessed-at thought processes of the small-fry is a distraction from the very real and successful power strategies of this woman. I think this woman is a whole lot smarter and more dangerous than all her minions put together, a true megalomaniac.

I am glad that you are onto her tactics and doing a fine job of making them more widely known. None of my comments are intended to cast aspersions on anyone posting here and I hope they are not read that way.

In the interests of full disclosure, for 30 years I was one of those people casinos employ to spot the cheats, frauds, shysters and mechanics--on all the games, on the tables or off.

Some insights from a person who was in an entirely different group-- Sahaja Marg

[pitfallsofspirituality.blogspot.com]

But this persons observations, based on over a decade in Sahaja Marg may ring a few familar bells.

Two articles:

[pitfallsofspirituality.blogspot.com]

[pitfallsofspirituality.blogspot.com]

Interesting observations: Positive thinking actually preserves secretive power structures, whether political, pseudospiritual, or entreprenuerial, from scrutiny.

Positive thinking is anti liberty.

The American Revolution was started by grouches who were aware of the negative uses of power, not by positive thinkers.

The checks and balances in the Constitution were written by people who saw the dark side of power and its temptations.

Now, to our friend who earned a wealth of experience from quite a different organization. He brings up some intersting points.

"And so, an emphasis on `positive thinking' & `no criticism' most often occurs in groups where there is a strong hierarchy and a tendency of `groupthink'. By `groupthink' I mean of course the phenomenon that everyone is encouraged to say the same (`positive') things, and critical, self-reliant thought is frowned upon.'

"I dare still say that `positive thinking' can be a pitfall. `Positive thinking' can be a power tool, used by the top of a Pyramid to smother criticism."

"...webcommunities and blogs are new instruments to create open source exchange of information and ideas. And open, non-hierarchical exchange of ideas always threatens the Pyramid."

Finally, this question: "Who gets to decide what is `positive'?"

(Or, as Cicero put it, 'Cui bono?' Whose interests and priviliges are being served by naming something as positive and other things as negative?)

Quote

Friday, January 23, 2009

[pitfallsofspirituality.blogspot.com]



Positive thinking 2: groupthink and denial

One obvious question regarding `positive thinking': Who gets to decide what is `positive'? Let's paraphrase the obscure poet from the previous post, to arrive at:

There is nothing either positive or negative, but thinking makes it so.

#####

Now, to stay with Shakespeare, suppose there is something rotten in the state of Denmark (meaning our Spiritual Movement of course). What do you think will happen? A likely scenario: someone(s) with real commitment to making things better notices that there is something important not right. This person (these persons) will try to correct the issue, but if they are not in a position of power and the issue has been caused by people higher up in the Pyramid...then their efforts will be perceived as threatening to the position of these higher-up people.

Now the person trying to ameliorate things is caught between two grindstones. The denial of the Inner Circle (=the people high up in the Pyramid) is the top grindstone, and the bottom grindstone is ... the denial of the majority of followers. Because the followers are in the Movement for `positivity'. They want to believe in the purer-than-pure heart of the Leader, they want to believe in that God has granted Special Power to the Special Personality, and that they themselves are Special because they follow Him.

The followers cling to these beliefs because it offers them escape from the pangs of life. But then when someone criticizes either the Movement, the Pyramid, or the Leader...their rosy world is threatened.

And so, an emphasis on `positive thinking' & `no criticism' most often occurs in groups where there is a strong hierarchy and a tendency of `groupthink'. By `groupthink' I mean of course the phenomenon that everyone is encouraged to say the same (`positive') things, and critical, self-reliant thought is frowned upon.

(small excerpt removed for brevity--author is describing how his own nation became entangled in a foreign policy mess because valid misgivings were suppressed by its positive thinking political leaders--C)

So, with or without any label of sect, inside or outside of spiritual movements and religions, I dare still say that `positive thinking' can be a pitfall. `Positive thinking' can be a power tool, used by the top of a Pyramid to smother criticism.

Is this an effective strategy?

#####

Well, yes, from the Pyramid's perspective. One might think not, because almost inevitably, in the end the truth will come out. At some time, the falsities will be exposed. You can fool some people some time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

But the word `time' is of the essence in understanding why the strategy is still effective. Because by the time things are exposed, often the ones who stand to suffer from the exposure have moved on. Or they will say: `Ok ok, so we made some mistakes, LONG AGO, but let's stop arguing about who killed who...and please don't be so negative, we must look to the future and forget the past.'

In this way I have seen so incredibly many cover-ups, even clumsy ones, succeed.

#####

The one perspective from which the `positive thinking' strategy does not succeed, in my not so humble opinion, is the spiritual perspective.

Be truthful.

I cannot imagine any spirituality without such tenet. Truthful can mean praise as well as criticism. Truth is the opposite of denial. Truth means: open to criticism.

#####

The pitiful attempts by many so-called `spiritual' movements to stall criticism, to block criticism, to deny criticism are in my eyes a sure sign that such criticism is justified.

.....

Of course, webcommunities and blogs are new instruments to create open source exchange of information and ideas. And open, non-hierarchical exchange of ideas always threatens the Pyramid.

No surprise that spiritual movements (religions included) seek ways to maintain their Absolute Truth by denouncing open exchange

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corboy
Some insights from a person who was in an entirely different group-- Sahaja Marg

[pitfallsofspirituality.blogspot.com]

But this persons observations, based on over a decade in Sahaja Marg may ring a few familar bells.

Thank you very much for this link, Corboy; there is a lot of new, helpful stuff to research on that blog (not to mention the many links, articles and ideas that people here continue to contribute almost every day.) The work does not go unnoticed and many of us are benefitting from it in our quiet way.

There has been much criticism of this Website in recent days. For myself personally as a now-thriving former cult member, the Rick Ross site has been an invaluable resource in my cult recovery.

Perhaps for those who have never found themselves in thrall of a cult or high demand group however, this is really not the forum for them. I imagine it must be difficult to understand the need that some cult survivors have to grapple with and deconstruct methods of coercive persuasion, if one has never experienced them first-hand.

There are more guys named STEVE who are linked with Byron Katie.

Steve Chandler
Steve Hardison
Stephen McGhee [thegetrealblog.com]

_______________________
Julie Blake [www.getmusicsuccess.com]
"As I write this, tears of unbelievable gratitude flow from my eyes for Steve Chandler, Stephen McGhee and Steve Hardison...While attending Katie’s 9-day School Julie experienced her first totally fearless day – and found heaven on Earth…the present moment."
____________________



These guys are almost off the charts, and need to be researched and looked into very carefully.
Notice below how quickly they get into "money issues" and "disappearing". Yes, money is going to be disappearing and not returning, that is for certain.
There is a horde of these "coaches" who have jumped on the Byron Katie gravy-train, and are using the same techniques, and making a killing.

One can find Byron Katie information on these people, by search for their name in "quotes", and the name "Byron Katie" in quotes. Like...

"Steve ______" "byron katie"


_______QUOTE excerpts for educational research and analysis___________________
Steve Chandler [www.imindshift.com]
QUOTE: "So when I attended Byron Katie's 9-day school I was amazed by the power of it. I had long been an admirer of Katie's CDs and books. My friend Steve Hardison had recently been to her 9-day school and came back so enthused that I was taken aback. ...
When I got home after the 9-day school I was so happy I decided to call my next book "Fearless." I had already made a CD called "Fearless" long before the school, and it was everybody's favorite of all the books and CDs. (You can download it by clicking on "audio" at the top of this page.)
Then after writing a lot of it, I thought about calling it "Better Than Heaven." I was basing that on this quote from Katie, "There is something better than heaven. It is the eternal, meaningless, infinitely creative mind. It can't stop for time or space or even joy. It is so brilliant that it will shake what's left of you to the depths of all-consuming wonder."
Life was better than heaven after the school. Everything looked different. Felt different. New joy and music and color in everything. Katie kept asking us, "Who would you be without your story?"
...One thing that happened in the Byron Katie school was that all my money worries disappeared and have not returned."
___________________________________


Steve Hardison.
Steve Hardison markets himself as the legendary Ultimate Coach Steve Hardison.
Apparently a close personal friend of Byron Katie?

TRIBUTES
[www.theultimatecoach.net]
QUOTE: "I adore you Steve Hardison!...I love you... ...Thank you Steve, for knowing the way.
xoxoxo kt (Byron Katie)"

Have a look at the almost unbelievable level of exploitation and manipulation being attempted, but believe it.




_______QUOTE excerpts for educational research and analysis___________________

Steve Hardison “The Ultimate Coach” Joins the Miracle Leader Hall of Fame
[thegetrealblog.com]
[thegetrealblog.com]

...
"Steve came to the microphone and stood there soaking up the room. His presence was palpable. It was truly remarkable as his azure blue eyes glistened through his glasses at the audience. He stood silently looking out at all of us. While Steve was not looking directly at me, I could really feel his presence, and something began to shift in my body as if he was my very Soul was opening up my Soul … He was calm and powerful, relaxed and nervous all in the same breath. How can that be? There was raw power there. He wasn’t saying anything – not a word. The room was hushed and got grew increasingly quiet as we all waited for him to speak…a few people began to shift in their seats…. It was apparent that many people were uncomfortable with the silence. What would he say? Would he ever speak at all? The clock ticked…30 seconds. He looked out at us again, this time more fully…he connected more deeply. It was as if he was going deeper into his own heart…his own Spirit and as he went deeper I felt myself go deeper. This was so weird. “Say something”, I thought to myself. “I want you to speak. I want to hear what you have to say.”

His mouth finally opened and the words tried to come out. The first word was broken. He swallowed hard and began again. This time his heart connected with his mouth and his every ounce of being. His eyes filled with emotion and power filled integrity. He said, “My Name is Steve Hardison and I want all of you to know I LOVE YOU.”

The room grew quieter still as if they were in the calm before a hurricane. The hurricane did come immediately following that statement in the form of a thunderous round of applause which erupted as thousands of people gave a standing ovation for the powerful demonstration Steve had given us. He said very little and yet his five minutes spoke volumes to all of us." ...
___________________________________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2009 04:17AM by The Anticult.