Byron Katie (the Work) and Stever Robbins NLP Innoculations
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 04, 2009 04:11AM
Here is a little more information about Stever Robbins methods, as the advanced persuasion techniques he teaches and uses explain some of the same techniques being used by Byron Katie.
Its important, as even though Byron Katie does all sorts of different techniques, many of the techniques she does, overlap with the NLP persuasion methods.
Please take a moment to carefully read the technical excerpt from him below, as it speaks volumes. Its something that needs to be analyzed carefully.
Also, Stever Robbins has all sorts of information out there in the NLP world, which actually explains exactly what Byron Katie is doing, and also what he is doing. That is an older NLP tradition, where you do explain what you are doing to people, AS you are doing it to them.
But now, that has gone by the wayside, as most of them now try to HIDE what they are doing, and play innocent to the general public.
It really is beyond laughable and frankly reflects extremely badly on Stever Robbins, that he would try to pretend that he isn't doing this stuff, and that Byron Katie isn't doing any of the same methods. That is a very serious mistake Stever Robbins has made, but again, he has to say that, as he is caught in a double-bind concerning Byron Katie.
In the NLP world, they technically break down exactly what people are doing, but he won't do that for Byron Katie, as it destroys the Savant illusion. They must think they can pull the wool over the eyes of the general public, as almost noone has any training in these areas.
Stever Robbins works with Richard Bandler and John LaValle on a yearly basis, and they are the authors of the book Persuasion Engineering.
QUOTE: "He can often be found assisting at Richard Bandler and John LaValle's Charisma Enhancement program in Orlando early in the year" [www.steverrobbins.com]
He defines himself as a Certified Master Trainer Elite of NLP, and has decades of experience in these precise techniques.
Here is one example of Stever Robbins commenting on Persauasion Engineering.
______________________________________QUOTE_______
[www.altfeld.com]
Chat Log: Featuring Stever Robbins
IRC Chat Log, August 23, 1998
"Stever: Ok. In short, "innoculations" are simply preframing someone against objections that you know will be there. If you're selling hypnosis to someone, and you know that a lot of people will ask, "will you make me beg for a cracker, like the bad, bad birdy that I am?" then you can pre-frame the answer by starting off saying, "Some people think of clucking like a chicken and begging for crackers when they think of hypnosis. In fact, that's a totally different phenomenon..." you watch them nonverbally to find out whether they seem to agree that that statement applies to them and if it does, you go ahead and answer the objection without them ever having to ask it. It's a nice way of pacing them, as well. When you're setting expectations in a business setting, you want to include an innoculation component as well."
Jonathan: You were just innoculating against us not knowing what innoculations meant.
...
___________________________________
That short excerpt from Stever Robbins, speaks volumes.
Notice that one student picked up he was DOING an innoculation AS he was explaining it. That is how those guys operate. as Stever is supposedly explaining Innoculations, he is also running meta-patterns on top of that simultaneously, often doing something totally unrelated.
INNOCULATIONS: In a sense, this is exactly what Stever is doing on that blog and elsewhere, Stever is preframing people using Innoculations against objections about his methods, BEFORE anyone has a chance to bring them up, or even think of them.
Has it worked? So far, yes.
He is doing almost the exact same thing in his recent blog comments on SHAMblog. As a matter of fact, his making posts on these "skeptical" blogs, is actually a type of Innoculation. It preframes him as being some sort of researcher or "coach", when in fact he is a master persuader of the highest order.
That actually is very similar to the methods used by Byron Katie, just with a completely different style.
You see also that he says, you watch the client/target nonverbally, to see if they agree with your salespitch, and then try to override any objections before they ask them. Again, Byron Katie does this all the time, when she carefully observes people's reactions, like she did with Janaki when she first met her and coverted her on the spot.
Instant conversion of Janaki by Byron Katie [forum.culteducation.com]
This is far less than 1/100th of 1% of what these guys are doing to people.
They have decades of precise training in using every advanced persuasion pattern on the face of the earth, and they are extremely intelligent people.
That is why it is so embarrasing and shameful, when they try to play the Byron Katie card, and act innocent. They are simply trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the public, who do not have training in these areas.
Stever Robbins gets an F-minus.
Every word he says has to be checked, and double-checked. And one has to analyze everything he says verbally, especially over the phone in his so-called "coaching". The Stories he tells all have multiple levels of meaning, right down to the metaphors and language patterns.
Its utterly ridiculous they would try to deny they use these methods and patterns, when its so obvious they are doing so, and at the same time they are SELLING products that purport to teach the exact same methods they are denying they use.
They get away with it with the general public, as the public has no training, or even knowledge that these techniques even exist and are being used on them.
The height of "elegance" to them, is to use advanced persuasion techniques that are INVISIBLE to the client/target, to engineer consent, usually to buy expensive overpriced services/products they are selling, like coaching contracts.
And also to be able to DENY they are using a technique, while simultaneously using that very same technique on the person. They do that all the time.
The current and former clients/targets/victims of these people will be absolutely shocked at what was done to them without their awareness, once they spend the time learning how it all works.
People easily get cleaned-out, and 'taken to the cleaners' on a weekly basis.
Now they even try to preframe and train the target to feel JOY at being taken to the cleaners.
Think of that in the context of how the Byron Katie system and process works.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2009 04:24AM by The Anticult.
Its important, as even though Byron Katie does all sorts of different techniques, many of the techniques she does, overlap with the NLP persuasion methods.
Please take a moment to carefully read the technical excerpt from him below, as it speaks volumes. Its something that needs to be analyzed carefully.
Also, Stever Robbins has all sorts of information out there in the NLP world, which actually explains exactly what Byron Katie is doing, and also what he is doing. That is an older NLP tradition, where you do explain what you are doing to people, AS you are doing it to them.
But now, that has gone by the wayside, as most of them now try to HIDE what they are doing, and play innocent to the general public.
It really is beyond laughable and frankly reflects extremely badly on Stever Robbins, that he would try to pretend that he isn't doing this stuff, and that Byron Katie isn't doing any of the same methods. That is a very serious mistake Stever Robbins has made, but again, he has to say that, as he is caught in a double-bind concerning Byron Katie.
In the NLP world, they technically break down exactly what people are doing, but he won't do that for Byron Katie, as it destroys the Savant illusion. They must think they can pull the wool over the eyes of the general public, as almost noone has any training in these areas.
Stever Robbins works with Richard Bandler and John LaValle on a yearly basis, and they are the authors of the book Persuasion Engineering.
QUOTE: "He can often be found assisting at Richard Bandler and John LaValle's Charisma Enhancement program in Orlando early in the year" [www.steverrobbins.com]
He defines himself as a Certified Master Trainer Elite of NLP, and has decades of experience in these precise techniques.
Here is one example of Stever Robbins commenting on Persauasion Engineering.
______________________________________QUOTE_______
[www.altfeld.com]
Chat Log: Featuring Stever Robbins
IRC Chat Log, August 23, 1998
"Stever: Ok. In short, "innoculations" are simply preframing someone against objections that you know will be there. If you're selling hypnosis to someone, and you know that a lot of people will ask, "will you make me beg for a cracker, like the bad, bad birdy that I am?" then you can pre-frame the answer by starting off saying, "Some people think of clucking like a chicken and begging for crackers when they think of hypnosis. In fact, that's a totally different phenomenon..." you watch them nonverbally to find out whether they seem to agree that that statement applies to them and if it does, you go ahead and answer the objection without them ever having to ask it. It's a nice way of pacing them, as well. When you're setting expectations in a business setting, you want to include an innoculation component as well."
Jonathan: You were just innoculating against us not knowing what innoculations meant.
...
___________________________________
That short excerpt from Stever Robbins, speaks volumes.
Notice that one student picked up he was DOING an innoculation AS he was explaining it. That is how those guys operate. as Stever is supposedly explaining Innoculations, he is also running meta-patterns on top of that simultaneously, often doing something totally unrelated.
INNOCULATIONS: In a sense, this is exactly what Stever is doing on that blog and elsewhere, Stever is preframing people using Innoculations against objections about his methods, BEFORE anyone has a chance to bring them up, or even think of them.
Has it worked? So far, yes.
He is doing almost the exact same thing in his recent blog comments on SHAMblog. As a matter of fact, his making posts on these "skeptical" blogs, is actually a type of Innoculation. It preframes him as being some sort of researcher or "coach", when in fact he is a master persuader of the highest order.
That actually is very similar to the methods used by Byron Katie, just with a completely different style.
You see also that he says, you watch the client/target nonverbally, to see if they agree with your salespitch, and then try to override any objections before they ask them. Again, Byron Katie does this all the time, when she carefully observes people's reactions, like she did with Janaki when she first met her and coverted her on the spot.
Instant conversion of Janaki by Byron Katie [forum.culteducation.com]
This is far less than 1/100th of 1% of what these guys are doing to people.
They have decades of precise training in using every advanced persuasion pattern on the face of the earth, and they are extremely intelligent people.
That is why it is so embarrasing and shameful, when they try to play the Byron Katie card, and act innocent. They are simply trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the public, who do not have training in these areas.
Stever Robbins gets an F-minus.
Every word he says has to be checked, and double-checked. And one has to analyze everything he says verbally, especially over the phone in his so-called "coaching". The Stories he tells all have multiple levels of meaning, right down to the metaphors and language patterns.
Its utterly ridiculous they would try to deny they use these methods and patterns, when its so obvious they are doing so, and at the same time they are SELLING products that purport to teach the exact same methods they are denying they use.
They get away with it with the general public, as the public has no training, or even knowledge that these techniques even exist and are being used on them.
The height of "elegance" to them, is to use advanced persuasion techniques that are INVISIBLE to the client/target, to engineer consent, usually to buy expensive overpriced services/products they are selling, like coaching contracts.
And also to be able to DENY they are using a technique, while simultaneously using that very same technique on the person. They do that all the time.
The current and former clients/targets/victims of these people will be absolutely shocked at what was done to them without their awareness, once they spend the time learning how it all works.
People easily get cleaned-out, and 'taken to the cleaners' on a weekly basis.
Now they even try to preframe and train the target to feel JOY at being taken to the cleaners.
Think of that in the context of how the Byron Katie system and process works.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2009 04:24AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
quackdave
()
Date: July 04, 2009 05:52AM
Quote
The Anticult
Chat Log: Featuring Stever Robbins
IRC Chat Log, August 23, 1998
"Stever: Ok. In short, "innoculations" are simply preframing someone against objections that you know will be there. If you're selling hypnosis to someone, and you know that a lot of people will ask, "will you make me beg for a cracker, like the bad, bad birdy that I am?" then you can pre-frame the answer by starting off saying, "Some people think of clucking like a chicken and begging for crackers when they think of hypnosis. In fact, that's a totally different phenomenon..." you watch them nonverbally to find out whether they seem to agree that that statement applies to them and if it does, you go ahead and answer the objection without them ever having to ask it. It's a nice way of pacing them, as well. When you're setting expectations in a business setting, you want to include an innoculation component as well."
Jonathan: You were just innoculating against us not knowing what innoculations meant.
That's the trouble with the Internet, for some; it can backfire. It appears that Sashen, Robbins and others are indeed caught between a rock and a hard place. They can only wriggle before us all, at this point. In fact, with the WayBack Machine it is possible to look back and see the progression of some of these techniques, since most of them don't have the power to erase their past sites and posts. This is some great research, and it is the very stuff that keeps me safe from returning to my former captivity. Hard work by most all here, and bulls-eye accurate stuff by some.
Forgive my digression, but I must say this: In that I admittedly had my ass saved by this forum, and thread, I am quick to flare up when it appears someone is discrediting the abundant research and documentation it presents. That being said, I still have no business making snide comments about someone, even when I couch them in an opinion form. I'm actually surprised the moderator has not called me on it a few times. I regret my indescretions and shall endeavor to keep to the facts, as best I can. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
qd
Byron Katie (the Work) and Stever Robbins NLP hypnosis Twitter
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 04, 2009 06:33AM
a little more on Stever Robbins.
Did Stever get Byron Katie into Twitter?
Notice that Stever is listed as following over 1000 other people on Twitter. That is very extreme, that could be hundreds of messages everyday, and Byron Katie is high on his list.
Also notice his very tricky so-called Twitter Bio. Notice how he plays the opposites against eachother, on purpose.
----------------------------------
[twitter.com] Name: Stever Robbins
Bio: Idealistic futurist, productivity podcaster, comic, public speaker, cynic, amateur hypnotist, introvert [...].
---------------------------------------------
comic-cynic
idealist-realist
introvert - public speaker
Amateur hypnotist? As if.
Amateur means one does not do it for money, nor in their career, and does it badly.
First off, he is a world-class expert in conversational 'hypnosis', as that is what Richard Bandler and advanced NLP is largely about. But says he is 'amateur' to make people feel more at ease and less threatened about what he may be doing to them.
and Amateur? How can that be?
search the internet for...
"stever robbins" hypnotherapy
"stever robbins" hypnosis
That is not amateur 'hypnosis'.
More like unlicensed conversational hypnosis and hypnotherapy.
_________QUOTE_______________________
[www.excelquest.com]
Stever Robbins Combo Special
$94.99
Logical Levels
Join NLP Master Trainer Elite Stever Robbins for a CD that begins where Dilts's "neurological levels" leaves off. Identify how you and your clients think in different levels and shift between them smoothly. Know when you're matching and mismatching levels, and develop influence strategies for shifting levels by moving between times, goals and tactics, levels of systemic organization, and description/reality. ...
______________________________
Did Stever get Byron Katie into Twitter?
Notice that Stever is listed as following over 1000 other people on Twitter. That is very extreme, that could be hundreds of messages everyday, and Byron Katie is high on his list.
Also notice his very tricky so-called Twitter Bio. Notice how he plays the opposites against eachother, on purpose.
----------------------------------
[twitter.com] Name: Stever Robbins
Bio: Idealistic futurist, productivity podcaster, comic, public speaker, cynic, amateur hypnotist, introvert [...].
---------------------------------------------
comic-cynic
idealist-realist
introvert - public speaker
Amateur hypnotist? As if.
Amateur means one does not do it for money, nor in their career, and does it badly.
First off, he is a world-class expert in conversational 'hypnosis', as that is what Richard Bandler and advanced NLP is largely about. But says he is 'amateur' to make people feel more at ease and less threatened about what he may be doing to them.
and Amateur? How can that be?
search the internet for...
"stever robbins" hypnotherapy
"stever robbins" hypnosis
That is not amateur 'hypnosis'.
More like unlicensed conversational hypnosis and hypnotherapy.
_________QUOTE_______________________
[www.excelquest.com]
Stever Robbins Combo Special
$94.99
Logical Levels
Join NLP Master Trainer Elite Stever Robbins for a CD that begins where Dilts's "neurological levels" leaves off. Identify how you and your clients think in different levels and shift between them smoothly. Know when you're matching and mismatching levels, and develop influence strategies for shifting levels by moving between times, goals and tactics, levels of systemic organization, and description/reality. ...
______________________________
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
quackdave
()
Date: July 04, 2009 06:51AM
Gee whiz, there must be some kind of mistake. Stever Robbins just posted elsewhere on the web that he isn't making money doing anything like that at all! Not only that, but he claims to have posted his phone number so that anyone who wants the REAL story can call him and ask him. Here's the link: Stever's claim
qd
qd
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Stever Robbins
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 04, 2009 07:00AM
Gee whiz indeed.Quote
quackdave
Gee whiz, there must be some kind of mistake. Stever Robbins just posted elsewhere on the web that he isn't making money doing anything like that at all! Not only that, but he claims to have posted his phone number so that anyone who wants the REAL story can call him and ask him. Here's the link: Stever's claim
I guess the "Shop" segment of his website hawking his products and the "Breakthrough Coaching" advertised right underneath "Stever Robbins, Inc." are connected with that Babson College work he claims is all he's been doing.
Byron Katie Stever Robbins NLP hypnosis DELIBERATE MISDIRECTION
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 04, 2009 07:01AM
here are some hypnosis scripts, related to Stever Robbins, anyone can find in seconds.
So you see how these guys do it, all of these weasel words to play with your perceptions of reality.
This is amateur hypnosis?
What a joke, maybe he really is into comedy, or perhaps FARCE?
These are some of the most advanced hypnotic techniques that can be used, and this is from 15 years ago.
Byron Katie largely does a more advanced and subtle version of these techniques in her complex, interlocking conversational hypnotherapy Storytelling. That is basically what all her "Stories" are about, she has hundreds of them.
Stever Robbins own website [www.steverrobbins.com] has articles from the newsgroups alt.psychology.nlp alt.hypnosis
based on the book Trance-Formations, which is an advanced NLP hypnosis book based on Ericksonian hynotherapy.
Notice the stuff at the end about DELIBERATE MISDIRECTION to get rid of the conscious mind.
That is their main rationalization when they do this to other people.
remember that phrase...
DELIBERATE MISDIRECTION
_____QUOTE EXCERPT for educational research and analysis_______________
[www.steverrobbins.com]
From: stever@#### (Stever Robbins)
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.nlp,alt.hypnosis
Subject: Re: ++ IQ, HYPNOSIS AND GENIUS.
Date: 2 Jul 1995 03:59:02 GMT
...
I have a number of techniques I've used to help stretch myself and others. Based on "Trance-Formations," my first technique is:
1. Choose a topic area where you want to perform better.
2. Put yourself into a light trance.
3. Tell your unconscious mind to review every time you've done the topic activity. Tell it to review the scenes from the inside [first person point of view], and from several vantage points. Tell it to review the sights, sounds, and feelings.
4. [...]
5. Tell it to begin doing those common things more and more in the future, and monitor the results to find out if those are the crucial distinctions.
6. Tell yourself to drop into a deep trance and do those instructions.
[...]
.. In the last year or so, I've begun to specialize this technique on each sensory system. For example, I'm taking voice lessons, so I've put myself through several trances where I gave my unconscious mind instructions to pay very close attention to the link [....]
One piece that was very important to me was using finger signals (because I needed an external indicator to trust that it was "really" my unconscious mind giving me internal answers, rather than conscious hopefulness) to set up a contract with my unconscious mind:
When I'm getting good at something, I am deliberately kept unaware of it and consciously amnesiac for it, EXCEPT for some of the pieces that don't matter. That way, my conscious mind can worry about whether or not I'm doing X right, when all the while I'm busily mastering several other fields. It's deliberate misdirection, [...]
-- Stever
_________________________________
_________QUOTE_______________
[www.rain.org]
"Introduction
This set contains 3 word-for-word self-hypnosis induction scripts to utilize a technique that Stever Robbins proposed."
Stever Robbins Technic [www.rain.org]
____________________________
So you see how these guys do it, all of these weasel words to play with your perceptions of reality.
This is amateur hypnosis?
What a joke, maybe he really is into comedy, or perhaps FARCE?
These are some of the most advanced hypnotic techniques that can be used, and this is from 15 years ago.
Byron Katie largely does a more advanced and subtle version of these techniques in her complex, interlocking conversational hypnotherapy Storytelling. That is basically what all her "Stories" are about, she has hundreds of them.
Stever Robbins own website [www.steverrobbins.com] has articles from the newsgroups alt.psychology.nlp alt.hypnosis
based on the book Trance-Formations, which is an advanced NLP hypnosis book based on Ericksonian hynotherapy.
Notice the stuff at the end about DELIBERATE MISDIRECTION to get rid of the conscious mind.
That is their main rationalization when they do this to other people.
remember that phrase...
DELIBERATE MISDIRECTION
_____QUOTE EXCERPT for educational research and analysis_______________
[www.steverrobbins.com]
From: stever@#### (Stever Robbins)
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.nlp,alt.hypnosis
Subject: Re: ++ IQ, HYPNOSIS AND GENIUS.
Date: 2 Jul 1995 03:59:02 GMT
...
I have a number of techniques I've used to help stretch myself and others. Based on "Trance-Formations," my first technique is:
1. Choose a topic area where you want to perform better.
2. Put yourself into a light trance.
3. Tell your unconscious mind to review every time you've done the topic activity. Tell it to review the scenes from the inside [first person point of view], and from several vantage points. Tell it to review the sights, sounds, and feelings.
4. [...]
5. Tell it to begin doing those common things more and more in the future, and monitor the results to find out if those are the crucial distinctions.
6. Tell yourself to drop into a deep trance and do those instructions.
[...]
.. In the last year or so, I've begun to specialize this technique on each sensory system. For example, I'm taking voice lessons, so I've put myself through several trances where I gave my unconscious mind instructions to pay very close attention to the link [....]
One piece that was very important to me was using finger signals (because I needed an external indicator to trust that it was "really" my unconscious mind giving me internal answers, rather than conscious hopefulness) to set up a contract with my unconscious mind:
When I'm getting good at something, I am deliberately kept unaware of it and consciously amnesiac for it, EXCEPT for some of the pieces that don't matter. That way, my conscious mind can worry about whether or not I'm doing X right, when all the while I'm busily mastering several other fields. It's deliberate misdirection, [...]
-- Stever
_________________________________
_________QUOTE_______________
[www.rain.org]
"Introduction
This set contains 3 word-for-word self-hypnosis induction scripts to utilize a technique that Stever Robbins proposed."
Stever Robbins Technic [www.rain.org]
____________________________
Re: Byron Katie Stever Robbins NLP hypnosis DELIBERATE MISDIRECTION
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 04, 2009 07:25AM
Again, notice the tricky language being used by Stever Robbins, on that blog comment, which will go unchallenged.
and its the standard "get them on the phone" technique, which if you don't have the training, its easy to be persuaded of almost anything by a professional like Stever. He's a pro, with decades of experience in persuasion.
He knows if he puts his detailed comments about Byron Katie down in writing, then they can be analyzed and cross-checked.
Notice how anyone associated with Byron Katie always has the same response...talk on the phone?
He tries to take very careful facts and evidence, and relabel them as "noise", and to imply its "not worth reading". Very clever.
Because if people read the facts, they can make up their own minds, based on the mountain of evidence. So instead, he tries to preframe a thread like this as "noise".
The real noise, is the deceptive advertising, and weasel words being used.
What about all of his "coaching clients"?
What about what he has been doing for decades? What about the dozens of products being sold?
Again, its trying to use deliberate misdirection, about a temp-contract, and to misdirect away from the big picture.
Why don't some of these senior NLP hypnotists, make some better choices in life?
Instead of trying to dupe the general public for money, why not do the opposite?
Why not write some books completely explaining how these advanced persuasion techniques work?
Why not choose to NOT use deliberate misdirection?
But if they did this, they would be persona non grata in the NLP persuasion community, and their own business would suffer.
But Stever Robbins knows all this stuff upside and backwards.
For him to try and play innocent about the dozens of tactics being used by Byron Katie, is disgraceful.
Look at what is happening to people, people on their knees, people turning over their wedding rings, working for years for no pay, and everything else mentioned in these threads.
If that is not a severe abuse of these advanced persuasion techniques, then what is? How much further does it have to go?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2009 07:30AM by The Anticult.
and its the standard "get them on the phone" technique, which if you don't have the training, its easy to be persuaded of almost anything by a professional like Stever. He's a pro, with decades of experience in persuasion.
He knows if he puts his detailed comments about Byron Katie down in writing, then they can be analyzed and cross-checked.
Notice how anyone associated with Byron Katie always has the same response...talk on the phone?
He tries to take very careful facts and evidence, and relabel them as "noise", and to imply its "not worth reading". Very clever.
Because if people read the facts, they can make up their own minds, based on the mountain of evidence. So instead, he tries to preframe a thread like this as "noise".
The real noise, is the deceptive advertising, and weasel words being used.
What about all of his "coaching clients"?
What about what he has been doing for decades? What about the dozens of products being sold?
Again, its trying to use deliberate misdirection, about a temp-contract, and to misdirect away from the big picture.
Why don't some of these senior NLP hypnotists, make some better choices in life?
Instead of trying to dupe the general public for money, why not do the opposite?
Why not write some books completely explaining how these advanced persuasion techniques work?
Why not choose to NOT use deliberate misdirection?
But if they did this, they would be persona non grata in the NLP persuasion community, and their own business would suffer.
But Stever Robbins knows all this stuff upside and backwards.
For him to try and play innocent about the dozens of tactics being used by Byron Katie, is disgraceful.
Look at what is happening to people, people on their knees, people turning over their wedding rings, working for years for no pay, and everything else mentioned in these threads.
If that is not a severe abuse of these advanced persuasion techniques, then what is? How much further does it have to go?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2009 07:30AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie Stever Robbins NLP hypnosis DELIBERATE MISDIRECTION
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 04, 2009 09:31AM
A certain person mentioned in this thread a number of times also weighed in with a comment in the first of the three blog entries on Steven Salerno's fiasco of an appearance here:Quote
The Anticult
Again, notice the tricky language being used by Stever Robbins, on that blog comment, which will go unchallenged.
Not holding my breath that this person will ever "log on" here. And I could be wrong. (Oops, I committed a BK-ism there.)Quote
I've found the omniscience demonstrated on the RR forum quite helpful in identifying thoughts I never knew I had, intentions which hadn't entered my awareness, conversations that never transpired, and the transfers of large sums of money that, apparently, were lost in the mail.
I was also thrilled to discover that I've mastered techniques I've never even heard of, taught concepts that I don't know, and proven that accusations against me were true by not replying to blog posts that I never saw.
Why I've never taken them up on their invitations to participate in an "open and honest discussion" is a mystery to me... I'll have to log on and hear one of the pundits explain my confusion for me.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 04, 2009 07:16PM
I've been following this thread with fascination as I think you're quite right that Byron Katie is using every trick and technique known to man of covert, coercive persuasion.
She is also doing it in such a subtle and seemingly innocuous way that it simply passes under most peoples radar. We'd all prefer to think of her as a kooky, slightly unhinged glamourous grannie than as an extremely manipulative and unscrupulous saleswoman of what is essentially an ancient and simple exercise in changing the focus of thoughts.
I personally don't have a problem with the ancient and simple exercise--used by myself on myself it can give a different perspective on thoughts where I am stuck. I do think you're right that BK is using this to both deflect from her business agenda and to draw in people to the far more dangerous LGAT immersion operation.
I have never attended a BK event or read any of her books, I grew up in a very abusive and controlling cult situation long before there was much recognition of these situations and very little help available in any form. I've learnt the hard way to avoid any such potential situations--but I think I would probably be sucked in by BK's sweet, caring, loving, loopy grannie schtick, if only because I prefer to think the best of people until I am proved mistaken. So I am very grateful for the information on this thread.
I'd like to make the point that one thing that I have found most helpful in dealing with these abusive and controlling coercive types is to concentrate on my own feelings, thoughts, reactions and behaviour as that is the only area where I have any control at all.
This is rather different than blaming the victim, I don't blame myself when I am drawn into these situations, I look at how I can get get myself out and that means taking the focus off the perpetrator and putting it back where it belongs, on myself, my behaviour and my own actions. Essentially it is how I behave and act in relationship to the abuser that allows me to walk away.
The primary tactic of the abuser is to get the victim focussing on and accepting the abusers worldview so that the victim is constantly trying to anticipate and cater to the abusers thoughts and feelings.
In fact we can never know what thoughts another person is thinking and what motivates them, it is hard enough for me to make sense of my own thoughts and motivations, let alone someone elses.
Quote:
I've found the omniscience demonstrated on the RR forum quite helpful in identifying thoughts I never knew I had, intentions which hadn't entered my awareness, conversations that never transpired, and the transfers of large sums of money that, apparently, were lost in the mail.
I was also thrilled to discover that I've mastered techniques I've never even heard of, taught concepts that I don't know, and proven that accusations against me were true by not replying to blog posts that I never saw.
Why I've never taken them up on their invitations to participate in an "open and honest discussion" is a mystery to me... I'll have to log on and hear one of the pundits explain my confusion for me.
The above quoted comment from another blog illustrates my point well, I think. We can judge and evaluate other peoples behaviour and actions and so deduce a likely motivation--follow the power and money, see where it goes is usually a good clue in motivation-- but guessing at the perpetrators thoughts is essentially playing into their hands, the focus is back on them and the game is on.
Assuming that I know what the perpetrator is thinking is a trap and an opening that allows the perpetrator a chance to plant doubt and confusion. It tells the perpetrator that my focus is on him--where he wants it to be. Manipulation of focus and thought is what it is all about and also what they excel at.
I hope this will not be read as an apology for this vile behaviour, it is not intended as such. I am just trying to pass on what I have learned from a lot of hard-won experience and contribute to this excellent exposition of some very subtle and nasty coercive behaviours. Trying to second-guess the perpetrators thinking is a bit of a red herring though and doesn't get you out of the manipulative game, it locks you further in.
She is also doing it in such a subtle and seemingly innocuous way that it simply passes under most peoples radar. We'd all prefer to think of her as a kooky, slightly unhinged glamourous grannie than as an extremely manipulative and unscrupulous saleswoman of what is essentially an ancient and simple exercise in changing the focus of thoughts.
I personally don't have a problem with the ancient and simple exercise--used by myself on myself it can give a different perspective on thoughts where I am stuck. I do think you're right that BK is using this to both deflect from her business agenda and to draw in people to the far more dangerous LGAT immersion operation.
I have never attended a BK event or read any of her books, I grew up in a very abusive and controlling cult situation long before there was much recognition of these situations and very little help available in any form. I've learnt the hard way to avoid any such potential situations--but I think I would probably be sucked in by BK's sweet, caring, loving, loopy grannie schtick, if only because I prefer to think the best of people until I am proved mistaken. So I am very grateful for the information on this thread.
I'd like to make the point that one thing that I have found most helpful in dealing with these abusive and controlling coercive types is to concentrate on my own feelings, thoughts, reactions and behaviour as that is the only area where I have any control at all.
This is rather different than blaming the victim, I don't blame myself when I am drawn into these situations, I look at how I can get get myself out and that means taking the focus off the perpetrator and putting it back where it belongs, on myself, my behaviour and my own actions. Essentially it is how I behave and act in relationship to the abuser that allows me to walk away.
The primary tactic of the abuser is to get the victim focussing on and accepting the abusers worldview so that the victim is constantly trying to anticipate and cater to the abusers thoughts and feelings.
In fact we can never know what thoughts another person is thinking and what motivates them, it is hard enough for me to make sense of my own thoughts and motivations, let alone someone elses.
Quote:
I've found the omniscience demonstrated on the RR forum quite helpful in identifying thoughts I never knew I had, intentions which hadn't entered my awareness, conversations that never transpired, and the transfers of large sums of money that, apparently, were lost in the mail.
I was also thrilled to discover that I've mastered techniques I've never even heard of, taught concepts that I don't know, and proven that accusations against me were true by not replying to blog posts that I never saw.
Why I've never taken them up on their invitations to participate in an "open and honest discussion" is a mystery to me... I'll have to log on and hear one of the pundits explain my confusion for me.
The above quoted comment from another blog illustrates my point well, I think. We can judge and evaluate other peoples behaviour and actions and so deduce a likely motivation--follow the power and money, see where it goes is usually a good clue in motivation-- but guessing at the perpetrators thoughts is essentially playing into their hands, the focus is back on them and the game is on.
Assuming that I know what the perpetrator is thinking is a trap and an opening that allows the perpetrator a chance to plant doubt and confusion. It tells the perpetrator that my focus is on him--where he wants it to be. Manipulation of focus and thought is what it is all about and also what they excel at.
I hope this will not be read as an apology for this vile behaviour, it is not intended as such. I am just trying to pass on what I have learned from a lot of hard-won experience and contribute to this excellent exposition of some very subtle and nasty coercive behaviours. Trying to second-guess the perpetrators thinking is a bit of a red herring though and doesn't get you out of the manipulative game, it locks you further in.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and more Steven Sashen games
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 04, 2009 08:47PM
Just for a point of reference, the comment from the blog above by Steven Sashen, is just another tactic.
Deny and distract.
And he is also trying to use sarcasm at the end, there is no way he is going to post anywhere where people might question or challenge his sales methods, or the claims he makes. He only posts where he is protected from real questions, or has control of which responses get posted.
He would not last 5 minutes on any open skeptical forum where people ask questions, with all of the junky new agey products he is trying to sell to people.
Also, where is the alleged "omniscience" in this thread, attributing "intentions" to him? It doesn't exist.
Transfers of large sums of money to him...lost in the mail? Where is that said in the thread? It doesn't exist, its just a made-up tactic, to try and deflect away from the REAL questions being asked.
Why doesn't he link to where this was said? Because it was never said, but if it was, then he can post the link to that post. Why doesn't he?
There were specific questions asked though...of Steven Sashen.
For example, his so-called $100 Challenge, when he was asked to apply that same criteria to Byron Katie, he just ignores it, as there is no real evidence at all to support the Byron Katie claims.
There was some early speculation and questions about if he MIGHT be the "former insider" from Byron Katie who called up Guruphiliac on the phone, or whatever. What other BK "former insider" is friends with Guruphiliac? But they are never going to tell who that was. (the BK folks love the behind the scenes phone calls, that is for sure).
Also, who said in the thread he has mastered techniques he says he's never heard of? Again, that is just made up out of thin-air.
No one said he knows much about the advanced NLP or Ericksonian concepts, he clearly has no serious training in that area, yet. (but since he hooked-up with Stever Robbins, who knows...)
The comments were about his SALES techniques, and his ridiculous product offerings.
A recent example is the Instant Advanced Meditation kit, where there is no price listed, and just the classic "freebie" offer, to collect email addresses. Then the upselling starts. That is a sales tactic.
Or how about the Acai berry stuff he was/is selling, on some website, and turning that around, and trying to sell it as an MLM?
Or the Quantum Wealth silliness?
or the performance-comedy tactics being used in the sales process?
One could go through the thread and collect the questions leveled at his sales tactics, and see that there are just some very direct questions being asked, and never answered.
But the real problem and question has always been his promotion of Byron Katie.
Now recently he appears to have pulled her name off his website for some reason, why? Did he change his mind about Byron Katie and now no longer endorses her? Something else?
also, it was shown in this thread, that there were still embedded keywords about Byron Katie on the website, which appear to have been removed after this was pointed out. Why?
There were questions about his status as a "curriculum director" for BK, what was his real job description?
lots of questions, and zero answers.
He has blogs, he could have commented on WHY he pulled the referrals to Byron Katie off his website, but he doesn't say anything. Why not? What's the big secret?
He could have clarified what his Byron Katie job-status was, or was not, but did he?
How can someone promote something for years, and then overnight it disappears?
The reality is that these guys on the Byron Katie gravy-train, are just not used to being asked questions. They are used to using the Byron Katie method of being the one doing the thinking.
They are used to controlling the questions, controlling the sales process. They are used to controlling people, and using fluffy and friendly sales-techniques, and getting their way with people.
When educated consumers start asking them simple and direct questions about their selling techniques, they can't handle it.
So instead of dealing with the facts, they create an overgeneralized manipulative comment, to deflect and distract from the real issues being brought forward.
Talk about a $100 challenge...try and find one word that Steven Sashen has ever said about the specific LGAT seminar techniques used by Byron Katie...lets start with one word, or one sentence...
and its the same with the dozens of other Byron Katie promoters out there.
Deny, distract, deflect.
Deny and distract.
And he is also trying to use sarcasm at the end, there is no way he is going to post anywhere where people might question or challenge his sales methods, or the claims he makes. He only posts where he is protected from real questions, or has control of which responses get posted.
He would not last 5 minutes on any open skeptical forum where people ask questions, with all of the junky new agey products he is trying to sell to people.
Also, where is the alleged "omniscience" in this thread, attributing "intentions" to him? It doesn't exist.
Transfers of large sums of money to him...lost in the mail? Where is that said in the thread? It doesn't exist, its just a made-up tactic, to try and deflect away from the REAL questions being asked.
Why doesn't he link to where this was said? Because it was never said, but if it was, then he can post the link to that post. Why doesn't he?
There were specific questions asked though...of Steven Sashen.
For example, his so-called $100 Challenge, when he was asked to apply that same criteria to Byron Katie, he just ignores it, as there is no real evidence at all to support the Byron Katie claims.
There was some early speculation and questions about if he MIGHT be the "former insider" from Byron Katie who called up Guruphiliac on the phone, or whatever. What other BK "former insider" is friends with Guruphiliac? But they are never going to tell who that was. (the BK folks love the behind the scenes phone calls, that is for sure).
Also, who said in the thread he has mastered techniques he says he's never heard of? Again, that is just made up out of thin-air.
No one said he knows much about the advanced NLP or Ericksonian concepts, he clearly has no serious training in that area, yet. (but since he hooked-up with Stever Robbins, who knows...)
The comments were about his SALES techniques, and his ridiculous product offerings.
A recent example is the Instant Advanced Meditation kit, where there is no price listed, and just the classic "freebie" offer, to collect email addresses. Then the upselling starts. That is a sales tactic.
Or how about the Acai berry stuff he was/is selling, on some website, and turning that around, and trying to sell it as an MLM?
Or the Quantum Wealth silliness?
or the performance-comedy tactics being used in the sales process?
One could go through the thread and collect the questions leveled at his sales tactics, and see that there are just some very direct questions being asked, and never answered.
But the real problem and question has always been his promotion of Byron Katie.
Now recently he appears to have pulled her name off his website for some reason, why? Did he change his mind about Byron Katie and now no longer endorses her? Something else?
also, it was shown in this thread, that there were still embedded keywords about Byron Katie on the website, which appear to have been removed after this was pointed out. Why?
There were questions about his status as a "curriculum director" for BK, what was his real job description?
lots of questions, and zero answers.
He has blogs, he could have commented on WHY he pulled the referrals to Byron Katie off his website, but he doesn't say anything. Why not? What's the big secret?
He could have clarified what his Byron Katie job-status was, or was not, but did he?
How can someone promote something for years, and then overnight it disappears?
The reality is that these guys on the Byron Katie gravy-train, are just not used to being asked questions. They are used to using the Byron Katie method of being the one doing the thinking.
They are used to controlling the questions, controlling the sales process. They are used to controlling people, and using fluffy and friendly sales-techniques, and getting their way with people.
When educated consumers start asking them simple and direct questions about their selling techniques, they can't handle it.
So instead of dealing with the facts, they create an overgeneralized manipulative comment, to deflect and distract from the real issues being brought forward.
Talk about a $100 challenge...try and find one word that Steven Sashen has ever said about the specific LGAT seminar techniques used by Byron Katie...lets start with one word, or one sentence...
and its the same with the dozens of other Byron Katie promoters out there.
Deny, distract, deflect.
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