Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Steve Salerno
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: June 28, 2009 07:31PM

If that is really you, Steve Salerno, and it does "sound" like you, then I thank you for making an appearance here. I am a fan of both your book and your SHAMblog.

(For those not in the know, Steve Salerno's book is called SHAM: How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless.)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2009 07:34PM by helpme2times.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Steve Salerno, Stever Robbins
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 29, 2009 04:05AM

yeah, that sure does sound like Steve Salerno.
Maybe he will do a blog post someday about the possibilty that possible targets of his critical analysis or their colleagues, may be trying to "curry favor" and become his online "friend", as a way to shape his perceptions on various issues.
And also try to steal his thunder, by associating themselves with him and his blog, to make it seem like they are also critical thinkers and Anti-Guru Gurubusters.

That would be interesting to explore.
Like the mafia said, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

One of the most advanced sales and persuasion techniques taught in advanced NLP, is to literally turn your potential critics and even enemies into a PERSONAL FRIEND, by using very specific techniques of mirroring, matching, and rapport. There are many specific papers and monographs on exactly how to do that.
Its not exaggerating to give out very strong warnings about these advanced NLPers, who can sometimes be extemely intelligent and slippery. The one's to be most worried about, are the ones who try to make their techniques "invisible" and then just act like a business consultant or personal coach.
Even highly trained people have to be very careful around these guys and gals, they can literally run circles around almost anyone without training in these areas.

Stever Robbins thought Steve Salerno's book SHAM was horrible by giving it a ONE-STAR review on Amazon "Great disappointment; many facts with no supporting logic" []

others here thought the book was excellent, and hope there are more books like it.
(Sham: How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless)

meanwhile, Stever Robbins gives Byron Katie a glowing 5-Star review []
Stever Robbins criticizes Steve Salerno, for writing "gossip", and using "scanty data" and "poor logic".
Stever Robbins then says its perfectly OK to rip-off customers at seminars by selling high-margin products. (rip-offs)
Stever criticizes Salerno for not having enough studies to support his assertions, and using "ad hoc examples and emotional rhetoric".

Can you believe the outrageous hypocrisy of Stever Robbins?
Its totally and utterly self-conscious, its a deliberate tactic.
Why doesn't he apply the same criteria to his buddy Byron Katie? She has ZERO references for anything, including her entire life! She makes outrageous claims with zero evidence. She has ZERO data, warped logic that is very damaging, ZERO studies, and The Work is literally completely based on "ad hoc examples and emotional rhetoric".

Its very very obvious what Stever Robbins is trying to do there in that review.
He's trying to say that 98% of the self-help industry is a rip-off, and 2% is great. So guess what, his competitors are in the 98% so don't buy their rip-off crap, but he and Byron Katie and his other friends and parners, are in the 2%, so buy their stuff.
Its the same stance as these other fake so-called Guru Busters, who just criticize everyone else's Guru, but don't use the same criteria on their own Guru.
Who thought up this Anti-Guru method of criticizing your competitors?

It may have been a clever marketing method devised by Stever Robbins, and then passed on to others mentioned in this thread, who use the same method. This makes you APPEAR like a critical thinker, but the trick is you don't apply it to your own Guru and business model.

Another point about Stever Robbins, is that his Self-Deception Induction above, is very similar to Byron Katie, in that he is trying to teach people to feel wonderful when they get taken advantage of. []
He uses the drycleaners wrecking your suit as the metaphor. (they just make all these Stories up, or exaggerate them). He says if they wreck your suit, you have 2 options, murderous rage, or joy. That is a pure Byron Katie Turnaround, which is irrational and damaging.

What about the intelligent choice, which is to feel the appropriate emotion for the situation? If the drycleaner ruins your suit, you can negotiate on the spot a way to get the suit repaired or replaced.
Or engage in rational problem solving, and others ways to make sure your $800 suits don't get damaged?
But no, you see the metaphor Stever is promoting. He is sending the message that you are supposed to feel happy-joy-joy, that someone ripped you off for $800. This is literally identical to the messages sent out by Byron Katie, about loving getting robbed at gunpoint and taken advantage of. This is all explained earlier in the thread.
"love the robber" []

You see what the message is here?
That you are supposed to feel WONDERFUL when someone rips you off for $800. This is all about softening up the customer, and trying to make them FEEL GOOD about getting taken advantage of.
Byron Katie also constantly does this, hundreds of times, over and over, to soften people up, and do a turnaround on healthy self-protective behavior, which is the salesperson's enemy as it blocks the sale.

These guys have the skills to mess up your mind to the point you can't find the moon in the sky.
Their business is to alter and engineer how you perceive reality without your awareness of them doing it to you, to the point where you believe they and their products are wonderful, and everyone else's are a rip-off. Very clever business tactic.

Its time to have a much much closer look into the precise methods of Stever Robbins, as they are very interconnected with Byron Katie.
"Stever Robbins, host of The Get-It-Done Guy, interviews Byron Katie, best-selling author and creator of The Work."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2009 04:13AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Stever Robbins, Steven Sashen, Self-Deception
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: June 29, 2009 06:12AM

The Anticult
Here is a link to a very very tricky little "article" by Stever Robbins, that is just loaded with linguistic Tech that would take a lot of analysis, even mirroring some Richard Bandler, and to try and sell people that SELF-DECEPTION is wonderful. That is just the tiny first-step, to try and open the door in your get his foot in the door of your mind, then they go from there. Its no accident they use the words SELF-DECEPTION.
DECEPTION and SELF. There it is, in black and white.
This is very similar to Byron Katie where they give your unconscious very clear messages right from day one about what is about to happen to you, like Mind-Cleanse (brain-wash).
Notice even in this tiny paragraph, which is a verbal Induction, he repeats self-deception four times, embedded into 4 commands to do so as you read. Its a Self-Deception Induction, using the same perversion of the Ericksonian conversational hypnotherapy methods.

- "dive right into deep self-deception"
- "indulge in negative self-deception"
- "you're going to do self-deception"
- "Try pleasant, wonderful, fun self-deception"

"Now I know you're supposed to clear your mind and experience reality, but I'm not very good at that. I dive right into deep self-deception. Most people indulge in negative self-deception. "I'm worthless. Nobody likes me. My head is too small." This seems limiting. If you're going to do self-deception, why not do it so you end up having a good time? Try pleasant, wonderful, fun self-deception."
The first line of the article says, "I grew up in a traveling New Age commune."

Now isn't that interesting...

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Byron Katie, Stever Robbins, Steven Sashen, TAKEN TO THE CLEANERS
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 29, 2009 09:52AM

even more interesting, is if one takes an even closer look at the text and the metaphors in the article by Stever Robbins, on that site that appears to be run by Steven Sashen.

The basic Story of the article by Stever Robbins, is that if you take your best suit to the CLEANERS, and it gets wrecked by their negligence, then you are supposed to feel HAPPY-JOY-JOY about this, as opposed to seeking redress. (pardon the pun)
Now notice the use of his many metaphors, which Stever Robbins even lists as one of his specialties, Mastering Metaphors.

Anyone familiar with the phrase...

"getting taken to the cleaners"?
Idiom Meaning - Someone who is defrauded, robbed or cheated.
"Relived of one's money or aspirations, perhaps by flimflam; easily bested. The advent of professional dry cleaners not so many decades ago brought about this modernization of the earlier phrase 'cleaned out.'
'Said of a gambler who has lost his stake at play; also of a flat (dupe) who has been stript of all his money.'" From "The Dictionary of Cliches".

So one needs to read the article/Induction by Stever Robbins again at that site []
thinking in terms of indirect metaphorical communication, which is what he is really doing.
Notice the precise similarities with how Byron Katie uses her images and phrases and metaphors. Once can look back in the thread about her Washing Machine Induction and Mind-Cleanse.
Stever took the other angle...Dry-Clean...getting TAKEN TO THE CLEANERS.

This is how they try to communicate indirectly with people's unconscious minds, and try to by-pass your conscious thinking processes. Does it work?
How much money do they make? That is your answer.

Anyone who doubts this, then take it from the horses mouth himself.
Read that page below, and related products, and have a glimpse of how the other side thinks about you.
Notice below, the use of nested-loops, pre-framing, and everything else mentioned in this thread.
Yes, these people have no scruples in the least, they turned their conscience off using the same techniques.
Stever Robbins is the motherload, as he appears to be selling a lot of products that describe many of the more advanced techniques being used by Byron Katie, and many others.

Stever Robbins' Products
"Mastering Metaphors 4-CD set. NLP techniques for communicating with the unconscious mind".

"This 4-CD set was recorded at a live workshop at ExcellenceQuest Institute. This program goes far beyond traditional NLP metaphor instruction, giving clear, accessible explanations of isomorphic metaphors, state elicitation metaphors, pre-framing, universal fables, nested loops, and semantic priming. The CD is accompanied by a web page containing further resources"

also, it appears that Steven Sashen is selling some type of Instant Advanced Meditation Course []
The pitch is that you get the first volume for "free", in exchange for your email address?
But notice there is no price for the entire set. How much is the entire set?
There is a picture there what looks like 7 CD's, so 6 more Volumes, then would it be 6 x $47 = $282.00
How much?

Never trust people who refuse to openly post the cost of their products, they are trying to play with your mind using sales-tricks.

And Instant Advanced Meditation...notice the absurd irony. Any type of proper meditation by definition takes time and proper training. That is like saying Instant Violin Mastery, or Instant Martial Arts Blackbelt.
What are they doing? Trying to peddle Instant Enlightenment again, quick-fix, Magical Thinking.
sad and pathetic, frankly. Disgraceful.

And the advanced NLPers who see this going on, and SAY NOTHING, are also a disgrace. The few who are ethical, don't want to damage NLP's image, so they say nothing.
Everyone else just wants to make as much money as they can, while pretending they are helping people.
NLP was taken over by the sales-slime long ago, and was then warped into all these different little frankensteins running amok.
They would feel shame, by they turned off their Shame Submodalities many years ago.

They feel FANTASTIC, taking people to the cleaners.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2009 09:59AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie, Stever Robbins, Steven Sashen, TAKEN TO THE CLEANERS
Posted by: iwrotesham ()
Date: June 29, 2009 08:22PM

A few clarifications may be in order here. Take them for what they're worth.

We really ought to make a distinction between the success of these methods as methods and the success of these methods as tools for revenue enhancement. As someone told me a long, long time ago, the way to get rich is not to buy a book about how to get rich. It is to write a book that purports to teach other people how to get rich. Point being, the methods themselves--often--are suspect if not downright ineffective. Ericksonian hypnosis and NLP, for all the hoopla about covert induction and nested loops, remain fringe beliefs. In fact, I recall an experiment that was once performed about the folkloric "Ericksonian handshake." (I'm going to try to dig up the reference, but I'm rushed this morning.) The bottom line was that the technique was observed to "induce" so much aggression in a fair number of the study participants that they would've been highly likely to react with great resistance--on a visceral, "subconscious" level--to anything else the handshaker did or said thereafter.

(HELPFUL HINT to would-be hypnotists: If the very first thing you do makes your subject want to kill you, it is probably not a good technique.)

If many of the people mentioned on this board are highly successful at what they do, it is because they've transformed themselves, in effect, into mind-bending Bernie Madoffs: They've been successful at creating a psychological Ponzi scheme wherein they hoodwink others into believing that "this will change your life," who then spread the good word among their friends that "this will change your life"...all of this frenzied rush to buy the next book or sign up for the next seminar taking place before the core material has been validated in any real-world setting.

One other point. As the adage goes, "There's nothing new under the sun." We were using elements of what is now (over-intellectualized) as NLP back in the early 1970s, except then it was then packaged as Tom Hopkins' "How to Master the Art of Selling" or conveyed implicitly in Joe Girard's "The World's Greatest Salesman." (Vance Packard also alluded to many of the underlying themes in "The Hidden Persuaders.") Sometimes those sales tactics worked, sometimes they didn't; the customers on whom the tactics worked tended to be gullible and unsophisticated. But the irony is, you don't need advanced persuasion techniques to sell to the gullible buyers. And the advanced techniques don't generally work on the sophisticated buyers.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: quackdave ()
Date: June 29, 2009 09:20PM

I'm not familiar with Steve Salerno's book or blog, except as excerpted in this thread. It sure does sound right on the money to me, though. Thanks for checking in, Steve. That is surely something that is not likely to happen with the other "Steves" mentioned here or Tolle, Katie or Mitchell. At least I highly doubt that they would appear here, only to have their posts dismantled and exposed by those that have the data, experience, mental acuity and purpose. It's very telling that you are the first to not only arrive, but to readily identify yourself. I would guess it's because you have nothing to hide. That doesn't seem to be the case with the others mentioned. Lastly, to Mr. Salerno, I hope you take The Anticult's challenge. It seems that at least some of the issues lend themselves to a blog format and shouldn't take much time or research.

I watch this thread on a daily basis, and I'm just amazed at the 'homework' that is being done. There are some repugnant and shameful tricks being played on the uninformed. Fortunately, the posts in this thread alone are holding a light up on these formerly hidden techniques and revealing that the Emperor has no fricking clothes on! Congratulations to all who take the time to document, footnote and present these jewels of Truth about those scamsters who would prey on the helpless; particularly in these times. You are doing a great service.


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Byron Katie, Nested Loops scammers, scamming the wannabe scammers
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 30, 2009 03:11AM

I agree with much of what Steve Salerno said above, but some parts need more refinement.

One of the things which has been mentioned in this thread many times, is that those who SELL these advanced persuasion techniques EXAGGERATE what they can do, so they can charge more money for it.
Its the scammers, scamming the wannabe scammers.
That is why one should never purchase any of their products.

But there are many people who DENY they even use persuasion tech at all.
For example, Byron Katie and her people DENY she uses any type of persuasion techniques at all. They say she is just an idiot savant who spoke with a cockroach and attained enlightenment in a roach motel.

Then why are people on their knees before her in a parking lot?
Why are people working for her for-profit company for no pay, for years?
Why are people even paying their own way, to work for her?
Why are people turning over their wedding rings to her, and making massive "gifts"?
Its all being engineered into people by an expert persuader. Its not happening by magic, try to persuade people to do those types of things, its not easy.

As far as the Ericksonian Handshake, I also agree with that. Most people who try to do it, make it backfire, as they do it so poorly. Milton Erickson could do it of course. and there are people who get away with doing it, and have modified it into some other physical signal, like touching someone's shoulder in a specific way as a cue.
For example, in this thread, Byron Katie appears to have done a version of it to Carol Skolnick, and it worked. []
So only very few highly skilled people can pull that stuff off, and they customize it.
And if it doesn't work, they try something else.

Also, as far as sparking aggression in the subject, one can see that Byron Katie deals with that immediately. She is constantly working metaphors about the aggression people may feel toward her, and is trying to Turn-it-around on themselves, and passify them, and turn them into metaphorical plant vases, etc.

That last part of Steve Salerno's comments are trickier though.
Its true that SOME of the techniques being used by these folks are not effective, and in reality what is probably working is the charisma, and forceful personality of the Guru, as well as the many social influence techniques they use, and many other LGAT seminar techniques.
For example, the book by Cialdini on Influence [] Byron Katie uses all of these techniques.

NLP is full of exaggeration and lies, that is certain. That is so the NLP Master Trainers, can charge a kings ransom to "train" people. Ask Stever Robbins what his daily rate is to conduct NLP Training...
But NLP also has some very advanced and effective modeling techniques, which work to copy whatever works. So they have taken effective persuaders, and copied all of their techniques.

One point I disagree is that these techniques are being used on "gullible buyers".
Its not that they are gullible, which carries a negative stereotype. Its that they don't have the experience and training dealing with people who are expert salespeople and persuaders.
As mentioned, Byron Katie deliberately TARGETS this demographic, and steers far away from the audience who is trained and has experience in these areas. She targets people who may be "too nice" and who are interested in so-called NonDual "ideas", and who also happen to have a lot of pain in their lives, often from trauma like childhood rape and abuse, and severe depression.
These people are DELIBERATELY targeted in her marketing, they target people who are in desperate pain, and are looking for a way out.

So its not helpful to label these folks as gullible buyers for example, as many of these folks have posted in this thread, and have written their stories in public and private. They are generally Suggestible and imaginative, and far too trusting of these Guru's who are strangers.
Once they have learned what is going on, and how its being done, then they respond differently.
So its just a matter of not having specific training in how the LGAT seminar persuasion game works.

Also, its important to not over-emphasize the perversion of the Erickonsian and NLP techiques. As mentioned in this thread many many times. At most, this is maybe 10%-20% of what Byron Katie does. But its the thing that no one knows much about.
Her deceptive and tricky "4 Questions" might be another 10% of what she does.
All of the LGAT style social influence, and standard sales and marketing techniques make up a lot of the rest.

Another distraction techniques that these Persuaders use, its to say that the advanced techniques don't work. Maybe they don't in some cases. But they also serve to distract the more advanced customers, and they also make the Guru feel more powerful, which give the Guru more confidence, which gives them more charisma, which people follow.
So its very complex.
The point of pointing out their techniques, is to show people EXACTLY what they are doing.
They have DENIED they use any of the techniques right in this thread. So showing exactly how they are using them, shows they are lying.

Lastly as far as Nested Loops, they do work. What are they, minus the fancy terms? They are dozens of interlocking Stories, with subtle language, that refer back to eachother. Many of the stories get left open and unresolved, and the Stories have various meanings embedded in them.
Byron Katie, everything she does, everything, can be seen as a series of Nested Loops. Its all her Stories, interwoven with eachother, that is basically all she does.

Human mythology, oral history, ancient stories like Gilgamesh, and religion could be seen as the supreme nested loops. That is how human belief systems seem to be put together.
If you learn how to modify human beliefs systematically, you can make people do almost anything.
That is real.

These New Wage LGAT Guru's don't become multimillionaires and live in their palaces for nothing.
Its not easy or simple to do what Byron Katie does to a group of people. Anyone could try to run their own LGAT seminar, and see how easy it is, it isn't. Its extremely complex and difficult, and takes many years of practice. Its probably about 100x more complex than mere public speaking.

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Re: Byron Katie, Love-Bombing, falling in love at first sight
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 30, 2009 04:20AM

also, what is one of the top techniques advanced persuaders teach and use?
Fancy mind-bending? No.

One of the top methods is to try and make your customers think you are their "friend". They show you the precise ways to try and make your customers feel like a close FRIEND, even though you are a complete stranger.
Then they go even further, to turn them into Raving Fans.
Then some of them go even further to try and get people to LOVE them.

Byron Katie, as shown probably 100x in this thread, literally and explicitly uses every trick in the book to try and get her fans and followers to literally LOVE her, and ultimately give her EVERYTHING, and love her with all their heart. That is factual reality.
If anything, that is the core agenda of Byron Katie, to make her fans and followers "fall in love" with her. That comes right from her pre-frame advertising, "falling in love at first sight" with her, to her Love-Bombs, and everything else. Its all in this thread.

She also deliberately has targeted people who have "loved" former Guru's, and then just transfered that love onto her own personality.
So its important not to lose the forest for the trees.
The core of the tech is using deep primary emotion to create deep emotional attachment in people, while distracting them with confusing stories.

Some of the more fancy-tech she uses, may or may not work as advertised, that is why they do everything at once, to try and reach more people.

And there is the term Confidence-Artist, which became Con-Artist. That comes from how when someone exudes supreme CONFIDENCE, people are attracted to them, and believe them. So some of the advanced tech used by the New Guru's does serve to give the Guru more confidence, as it makes them feel like a superior intellect and some type of sorcerer of the mind. It may be that the confidence of the Guru is the more powerful thing at play in those cases.
Then then use permissive suggestions to get their followers to do what they want them to do, without their followers knowing it.

But Guru's have learned to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the audience, as only some of it will stick, and each person is different.

But when you are able to see a Guru do a specific technique, it backfires on them, as it shows they are a manipulator. That is the real point in observing and explaining their techniques.
And that is why they try to hide their techniques.

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Re: Byron Katie and The Work
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: June 30, 2009 04:35AM

The Anticult
One point I disagree is that these techniques are being used on "gullible buyers".
Its not that they are gullible, which carries a negative stereotype. Its that they don't have the experience and training dealing with people who are expert salespeople and persuaders.
As mentioned, Byron Katie deliberately TARGETS this demographic, and steers far away from the audience who is trained and has experience in these areas. She targets people who may be "too nice" and who are interested in so-called NonDual "ideas", and who also happen to have a lot of pain in their lives, often from trauma like childhood rape and abuse, and severe depression.
These people are DELIBERATELY targeted in her marketing, they target people who are in desperate pain, and are looking for a way out.
Yes, this is very important to point out. Thank you TAC.

I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person, yet I got sucked into something harmful because I was seeking relief from a lot of psychic pain and a particular approach was touted as bringing about an end to suffering. To label someone like me as "gullible" is not only not helpful, it's a bit insulting. No thank you to that. I mean, one could just as easily say that I was very open-minded and adventurous to try out something, er, unusual.

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Re: Byron Katie and The Work
Posted by: iwrotesham ()
Date: June 30, 2009 06:34AM

Anticult et al: That is a very good point, about my too-broad use of the term "gullible," and you were right to call me on it. Perhaps I should have said "gullible or psychically vulnerable." And I'm sure there are other classes of folks who fall into the target demographic of these latter-day philosopher/predators.

The key thing to keep in mind is that when most of these gurus talk about "enrichment" or "growth" or "prosperity," it is theirs that they have in mind, first and foremost. If the customer prospers as well, that's an incidental benefit, to them. I'm sure that's already been covered chapter and verse in this (excellent) forum, but it's a point that can't be restated enough. These people are not, by and large, philanthropists; they are con artists.

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