Rabblerouser:

Attempting to blame others for Katie and Tolle, rather than holding them accountable for their own behavior is not a meaningful response to the criticism that has been posted here.

Did you even bother to read the whold thread?

If you had there is very specific criticism here of both Tolle and Katie's methodology and teachings.

The freedom to criticize such people is part of freedom of expression within a free society. This isn't Iran.

Katie and Tolle have the freedom to sell their teachings to the public and market their ideas, and others have the right to respond critically.

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Rabblerouser
If you don't like what they teach, why not simply ignore them?

So, let me get this straight. You want us to ignore what we don't like, i.e. Byron Katie and Eckhart Tolle, yet you obviously don't like what we're up to on this message board and can't ignore us.

You can't follow your own advice! You don't like what we're up to here and feel oh so free to lecture us about it - helloooo!

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Rabblerouser
Surely you would not be so closed-minded as to brand anyone who claims to have benefitted from their teachings as misguided or brainwashed?

Surely YOU would not be so close-minded as to brand US as misguided! As well as try and prevent us here from engaging in our right to free speech.


Perhaps you might choose to open up your own mind and read this entire thread. Somehow I get the feeling you haven't done that.

You're not a very good advertisement for the likes of Byron Katie and Eckhart Tolle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2009 07:58PM by helpme2times.

In response to Rabblerouser:

The name says it all. As a Katie/Tolle apologist, I'm surprised that the name isn't like the rest of the apologist ilk--something like 'Skipping gleefully through the fields'. Maybe it's a new tactic; to wear one's intentions to this forum on one's sleeve. He/she either read this thread and have kept their mind closed (contrary to their own admonition) or they know what's really up and are here for another purpose.

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Rabblerouser
I think that there is no harm whatsoever in the Work of Byron Katie or the teachings of Eckhart Tolle.

What they "think" pales in comparison to the information in this thread and this forum. The evidence shows the opposite of the above statement to be true.

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Rabblerouser
They are not leaders of authoritarian mind control cults that exploit and abuse their followers

That above statement runs counter to the evidence in this thread and in this forum. The stories of more than a few people indicate the exact opposite of the statement.

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Rabblerouser
no one has ever had any difficulty leaving behind The Work of Byron Katie or putting down Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now

Because of the myriad, high-powered techniques being used by these organizations, the opposite of the above statement is evidenced throughout this thread and forum. Indeed, this is the very REASON for this forum.

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Rabblerouser
If you don't like what they teach, why not simply ignore them? Surely you would not be so closed-minded as to brand anyone who claims to have benefitted from their teachings as misguided or brainwashed?

helpme2times has hit the nail on the head: this above statement is bald-faced hypocrisy.

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Rabblerouser
Here is an analogy:

There are shepherds out there who are looking for sheep to add to their flock, but only sheep will be shepherded. There has never yet been a lion that followed a shepherd. Are you a sheep or a lion?

This one part of the post disturbs me the most. The above statement is less an analogy than a preaching/teaching tale. I'm surprised RR didn't give one last warning, since it goes against the agreement made by Rabblerouser to post on this forum. Worse than the preaching, is the embedded statement that the victims are 'sheep' that could have been 'lions', thus blaming the victim. 'Victim bashing' and is also against the rules of the forum. Very surprised that those two strikes didn't get someone banned from this forum.


This forum is full of stories and information that pretty much prove the danger of these cults and their apologists. Sorrow, insanity and even death have occurred directly due to the techniques used by them. I'd like to see someone try to show some proof that these accounts are not accurate, instead of offering unlearned opinion or anecdote.

Here's a TRUE analogy:

Some people come to a sword fight with only a stick in their hand.


(I always wonder at those that come to a battle of wits totally unarmed)

qd

The comment by Rabblerouser has been dealt with by others.
But she/he makes a telling analogy.

are you a sheep or lion?
That is very telling.

Are you prey or are you a predator? A lion is a predator.

For those who get into The Work for money, and charge $100 a hr, they often make those types of images in their mind. They flip from being prey, into being the predator.

What about being neither, and being strongly assertive?
What is ironic, is that is EXACTLY what this thread is about, exposing the precise methods the predatory LGAT salespeople do, like Byron Katie.

Knowledge is power, and once people know what she is doing to them, then they can figure out what is going on.

But to say that Byron Katie is not doing these techiques, is either complete lack of knowledge, or outright deception. There are literally hundreds of facts now explaining what she does.

And there are others out there like her, who have different styles, but the same motive.

This BK question of the month, show's Byron Katie intelligence and skill in these methods.
It is classic.

Quote:
"It is not possible that every man, woman, and child in the world does not love me and care about me with all their heart. How is it that I am so sure of this?"

First off, she uses Questions, and those are permissive and leading.
Notice she has 2 negatives in the question, to create some confusion and a double-bind.
She has put the implicit assumption into the question that everyone loves her, as a statement of fact, which it is not.
She even phrases the question like a "School-Mate" type of question from school-days.

Obviously, every person on earth does NOT "love" Byron Katie. She is not very well known, and large amounts of people find her methods repugnant. So her embedded assumption is utterly false.

Notice also, both sentences have statements which she claims are CERTAIN. That is certainty, which generally means "truth". She is trying to engineer certainty about herself, into people's minds.

So what is the question REALLY about?
Its meant for her core followers, to try and bring them closer EMOTIONALLY to her, and think she is some godlike being. Same old Byron Katie pattern.
Notice the vulgar narcissism of Byron Katie thinking that everyone loves her?

But its real intent is to just reinforce these feelings in her closest followers.
She has always done this.
In the past, she found women who LOVED their former GURU's, and then just Transferred that to herself, Byron Katie. That has been shown in the thread. This is the same thing.

And many of the Byron Katie followers are "single". Why?
Then BK gets them to transfer all of their "loving" feelings to her and her image and photo's, and start some type of one-way twisted "love relationship" with Byron Katie in their minds.

So the goal of the question for Byron Katie is simple.
She wants to reinforce and deepen and engineer her closest followers to literally "love" her, and think of her as a godlike being.


She even uses more New Testament flavored language...as
QUOTE: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind". [bible.cc]

She just took the first part...
"love me...all their heart".
Even notice, that "all their heart" and "all thy heart". Same pattern.
She just replaced "God" with "me". Clever.

There is even a bit more in that little question. Byron Katie is an expert at constructing these kinds of complex, multi-layered leading questions, with embedded assumptions, which lead people to "certainty" about their emotions toward her, and to "fall in love" with a figment of BK in their imaginations.

This is the type of stuff she would have studied with Stever Robbins the NLP expert. She is literally doing it by the book, although abusing the techniques.
It is truly abusive, twisted, manipulative, and sociopathic, to exploit people like that. What makes BK really bad, is she picks regular kind-hearted folks, who haven't studied these patterns for years, so they don't know what is happening to them.

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Meadow
BK's question of the month:

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It is not possible that every man, woman, and child in the world does not love me and care about me with all their heart. How is it that I am so sure of this?

....
This is downright guru/cult leader/spiritual teacher worship. All discrimination is gone. They wallow in what they think is genuine love and feel safe like little birds in the nest.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2009 07:30AM by The Anticult.

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The Anticult
This is the type of stuff she would have studied with Stever Robbins the NLP expert. She is literally doing it by the book, although abusing the techniques.

Funny, I was just reading the latest blog entry by Steve Salerno. Stever Robbins left the first comment on it.

[[url=http://shambook.blogspot.com/2009/06/ok-so-your-glass-is-half-full-should.html]SHAMblog - Ok, so your glass is half full. Should you try to fill it the rest of the way?[/url]]

Fascinating find, hm2x!

I am truly intrigued by Stever's odd, jarring reponse. "Peak oil"? Did Stever get lost on his way to Al Gore's blog? 'Cause that might be a better place to stir up a rollicking discussion on earth's diminishing fossil fuels.

And "long-term scary trends"? What would the vase of flowers on Katie's table have to say about that?!?

Why is he worried about "engineering real solutions to real problems" when there's 4 questions and a turnaround? Is Stever Robbins no longer on Katie's payroll? Or is his work not yet done?

Anticult, do you see anything suspicious going on with his comment?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2009 03:25PM by Christa.

Ah, I was also wondering what The Anticult might think about that comment. Perhaps he/she will weigh in...

I've been keeping track of the daily page view counts for this thread; they're quite something.

Average view count for the last 5 days = 232 pages per day.

It would seem there are quite a few lurkers. Hmmm.

the thing with these old-school NLPers...its all very subtle and tricky. Things are never what they appear at face value.
There is no way in hell that Stever Robbins would be a true "follower" of someone like BK. He knows what she does, the NLPers make a ton of money training people in those exact methods.

He's probably just an admirer of her skills, and perhaps was hired by her privately to learn certain techniques, or maybe saw her skills and contacted her?
She is very talented at using these methods in a unique way. He would not have taught her everything of course, just a piece of what she does. But she has been able to take dozens of methods, and turn them into a narrative, that captures a lot of people.
And makes a lot of money.
And do it in such a way that it is almost invisible to the untrained eye.

What reveals Stever Robbin motivations, is his unqualified cheerleading for Byron Katie. Its very disingenuous, as he knows exactly what she is really doing to people, and exactly how she is doing it.
So to try and play innocent, speaks very loudly.

The main lesson, is to be very very cautious around these old-school NLPers. Some of them are extremely smart people, who have a lot of knowledge in persuasion, and some of them are highly unethical. Some are ethical, and disclose what they are doing.
Some pretend they are ethical, while they are not.
Some don't believe in ethics.

But many hypnotherapists, and old-school NLPers are interested in the BK methods, as its more subtle. You do all the same techniques, but without calling it hypnotherapy.
It also makes a lot of money very easily.
NLP died a pretty bad death over the years, and is not very marketable anymore.

But Byron Katie has tapped into an easy market, where people are not aware of the techniques being used, and just slip into trance states almost on command.
Its a cakewalk for those trained in these methods of persuasion to work in this area.
Sure, many of them try to tell themselves they are "helping" people, but they are not, they are exploiting people.

Why do they have to keep their methods a secret from their clients? They tell themselves its so they can work directly with the unconscious.
But they are lying to themselves and to others.

Greed takes over.
One could check into how much Stever Robbins charges to work one-on-one with people. That would be enlightening.
(but be very very cautious dealing with any of these people, they can sound like they are just chatting, when in fact they are running persuasion patterns on you).