I've done a little studying about the trolling techniques, both in a forum such as this and regarding the broader internet trolling problem. There were some great links offered, a number of pages ago, and I am recalling some of the interesting things I read, when I followed those links.

Apparently, trolls can actually spend a lot of time (not unlike some of the undercover work in the "mob" that we've seen in both movies and documentaries) gaining the confidence of the persons or group they wish to subvert. This infiltration is, according to the stories I've read, going on all over the Internet. Disruption and diversion seem to be the goals of a lot of this trolling. Since it isn't possible to post extremely perceptive, 'armed' guards at the entrances to forums and comment sections of sites, I guess we need to just rely on our own critical thinking and powers of perception.

All that being said, I have a question for those in this thread: Is it possible that someone, even with the best of intentions, might unconsciously or unknowingly (and not deliberately) do the work of an Internet troll? For instance, I'm almost sure that a while ago on this thread, someone fresh from the Katie group was subverted by someone sending her/him private messages that caused what appeared to be a lot of flaming and ultimately the very emotional "stomping off" of that valuable asset to this thread. I haven't seen that person post anything since that angry exit. What I am asking is, might it be possible that this 'subverter' was doing what they felt was good for the angry ex-Katie-ite? Might they have thought they were helping that other person? Anyway, that particular event caused this thread to be both disrupted and derailed.

qd

p.s. that reminds me; before the latest sharp turn on this thread, Anticult asked if anyone had any information on whether or not BK had anything to say about the jewelry and valuables before the seminars and workshops. I thought that was a very interesting query, deserving of a response from anyone holding any inside information, particularly anything in writing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2009 10:39PM by quackdave.

bluesky:

Essentially, you seem to be attempting to subvert this thread, either knowingly or unknowingly.

You often talk in circles, but your basic message seems to be that discussing alleged manipulative techniques and abuse by Katie on this thread is somehow something people should not do, at least not without accepting some blame for making the "choice" to be involved.

People that disagree with this contention are labeled "in denial.'

This is a fairly incoherent and poorly informed argument.

No one really makes the choice to be abused in large group awareness training. They simply attended a program, without fully understanding what is entailed and how it might affect them.

Typically group leaders are not forthcoming about their techniques and don't readily admit or advise potential recruits that the process is abusive and can be destructive.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is a research paper by a noted psychologist that studied such grops. Read carefully the 13 liabilities and four dager signs he lists connected to such mass marathon training.

FYI--no one is saying that Katie has "magical wizard like abilities," but rather examining the techniques she uses within the framework of identified coercive persuasion methods.

You don't seem to know much about such methods, as your posts illustrate.

Your alternating themes of taking responsibility, personal empowerment and your willingness to denigrate victims by blaming them for their "choices," reflects the thinking and philosophical themes prevalent within many large group awareness training organizations such as EST, Landmark Education Lifespring, etc.

Please understand that when a group employs coercive persuasion and deception in its recruitment practices (sales pitch) it's very difficult to make informed choices along the way concerning your involvement.

Again, you probably should read much more on the subject (see previous links) before pontificating about what victims should do or not do.

Many people that walk away from destructive groups have a difficult time sorting through what happened. Some retain a residue of the group mindset or teachings, which continues to influence their thinking, even though they are no longer in the group.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This section on "Recovery" might be helpful.

Hopefully, you are not simply "trolling," but rather simply ignorant.

But rest assured that this thread will not be subverted by an "Internet troll."

We are taking responsiblity for our lives

and we are doing so by seeking to educate ourselves about these manipulative techniques.

And by publishing URL links to such material so that others who wish to take this same responsiblity for themselves can come here and educate themselves as well.

Today's Prices for Gold

[www.monex.com]

Quote

$972.00 USD per ounce.

(Disclaimer:

This is NOT investment advice.

This is just a reminder of how valuable gold has become these days.)

Quote
bluesky
I think its really important, if only for her victims sake, to not empower Katie by proxy.

Reality shows that she's a flim flam woman pure and simple,

The bigger problem evidenced here, rather than Katie et al ..is that people are undervaluing their own choices..or are denying them and the responsibility to make them.
bluesky

I like to travel, and some of the places I've visited have flim-flam people and pickpockets who will prey on unwary tourists. Thieves and con artists use the same methods again and again -- because they work! They can take advantage of your ignorance of the area, local customs and what things should cost. They also use the tactic of distraction. They'll work in pairs or teams -- one or two people will distract you. Maybe they stage a fight, or they bump into you. Maybe they offer to assist you in some way, or ask you to help them. If you're a man who isn't accompanied by a woman, maybe an attractive girl flirts with you. Meanwhile, their buddy with the fast hands is stealing your wallet! Your attention was diverted, everything happens so fast -- and they, and your money are gone before you even know it! It's much safer and easier for them than robbing you at gunpoint!

The antidote? More knowledge. Learn a bit about the place, the customs, the prices. Be aware of the most common scams -- your guides, other people who've travelled to that place, travel websites can give you good information. That way, when you're in that crowd, and a fight breaks out -- well, maybe it is just a fight that has nothing to do with you. But you'll know to check your wallet anyway!

Does your knowledge of these common scams empower the thieves and flim-flammers? I think it does the opposite. Thieves DON'T want you to know their tricks. If you know the trick, you can better protect yourself from it. When you know what to look out for -- you are better equipped to make choices that will keep you from getting hurt. You DON'T have a real choice, if key pieces of information are kept from you.

This, to me, is why threads like this one are so valuable. They give people information about Katie's sneaky, manipulative tricks so that they can decide for themselves if they want to spend their time and money on her. Some people might read this thread and decide against going to her school, when they learn what really goes on there. Others may read the thread and still choose to go -- at least they're making an informed decision.

Others who've been influenced by her may read a thread like this one -- and decide which of her ideas they want to keep, and which they want to discard. When you see how a trick or manipulation is done, it can lose its hold over you. You see that the person doesn't have some special power -- you see the distraction or sleight of hand. Sometimes you can be manipulated -- and you don't really even know that you were manipulated. You know that something doesn't quite feel right, but you don't know why. Once you see the manipulation --THEN you can make a choice about what to do about it. If you can't quite see it -- you don't have that choice.

Threads like this are all about bringing the manipulation and tricks out into the open for all to see -- so that we CAN decide for ourselves what we want to do about them.

Probably some of the comments about BK having "magical powers of a magician" were directed at some of my comments.
But I never said that, I said the exact opposite.
There is nothing magical about what she is doing at all, its all technique. These techniques have been refined over the last 20+ years.
In this thread, you see the detailed evidence of these techniques and methods.

By the way, its Byron Katie who SELLS herself as a "Sorcerer", read her books. She says...some people say I'm a sorcerer, I'm invisible, etc.
That is 3rd grade stuff, but it can work.

Byron Katie is nothing magical. She an accomplished persuader in her area. But she targets people who have ZERO experience in this field. If she targeted people who had training in these areas, her seminars would be empty, she is so laughably blatant in her techniques.

Also, BK does not have superpowers.

Any fool can take people with PTSD and sexual trauma from childhood and open it up. But people with training don't do that, as that can quickly lead to death by suicide.
Most people stop doing this amateur trauma treating, when they hear about the suicides and deaths. Others just add a death clause to their waiver for you to sign. You be the judge of that.

Why is Byron Katie messing around with trauma and PTSD? She says herself in the same waiver that she has no training, and no experience. Its amazing what people can get away with.


Its interesting this came up just as the Byron Katie waivers and more LGAT seminars details were coming out. You see, if the public is AWARE of the LGAT seminar techniques in advance, they generally DO NOT WORK. This is why Werner Erhard and all the other guys also want to keep their seminar structure a secret.
The best thing to do to help the public is to openly publicize what is going on in the seminar. Then if people go, they will say..."hey, there she is doing all those techniques I read about" and they don't work as well, if at all.

Someone saying that reporting the facts of the Byron Katie techniques is disempowering, is not being intellectually honest. It could even be a deflection from the techniques themselves, meant to try and influence some people coming out with criticism.
For example, if a person tried to bring up some of this at a Byron Katie seminar, her response would be very interesting. Katie would just flip it around, and try to make it about YOU, and not her.
To do what Bluesky says to do, you just leave BK alone, which is actually part of the BK ideology.
But in fact, what needs to be done is the opposite, to precisely point out the techniques Byron Katie is using on people, and how she is doing it, and when. That will strip away most of her powers over her audience. That is EMPOWERING, in the truest sense.

Also, just the fact that its now widely known that she asks for people's wedding rings, you can be damn sure many women in her audience are going to wear a Cracker Jack ring to the seminar, and keep their real wedding ring at home, which is a good start.
Don't wear any valuables, and don't bring any credit cards, or bank cards, to ANY of these LGAT seminars, ever. They know exactly how to work people into a BUY NOW frenzy.


Lastly, there are some empowering techniques you can use in this thread to get BK out of your mind.
But the reality is that using these advanced techniques, a person like BK can get deep into your mind for many years, even decades. That is a fact. People who throw themselves into the BK system 100%, could get trapped in there for many years, like many of these LGAT's.
Part of the reason for writing so forcefully, and bluntly, is to cut through the bullshit and fog of confusion that has been created by the perp.

Here are some Imagery Rescripting techniques here.
[forum.culteducation.com]

The fact is, that carefully exposing and understanding the precise techniques used by Byron Katie and the countless new wage Gurus like her, is the most empowering thing you can do, and the Guru's know this, so they always try to say....

"just ignore that man behind the curtain!!! I am the great and powerful Oz!!!".

No they aren't. They are just clever people without a normal conscience, who enjoy manipulating people for profit and self-interest. And they Target people who have the least experience in these areas, looking for the softest targets they can find.

one other point on this.

If a person really did believe in the Eckhart Tolle method, and even some of the Byron Katie ideas, how would they respond to criticism of ET and BK?
They would believe that its NOT about the Guru, even if the Guru was a nasty Guru, a scam artist, or worse.
They really do believe its all about you, and your perceptions.

So if you are criticizing a Guru's methods, or the Guru themself, in their mind, they really would believe that the real problem is with YOU.
In their belief system, they would literally believe that you are "creating" the bad guru in the images in your mind.
they also believe the best thing to do with any type of "evil" is to smile politely and walk away, as its just an illusion anyway.

Its hard to wrap one's mind around this type of solipsism, but this is the trap of these types of belief systems. Its very tricky and you can get trapped like in a spider web, every move you make you get trapped deeper into it.

But here is the kicker. These Gurus engineer and promote these kinds of belief systems, as it gives them a free hand to do anything they want, with no accountability. Everything is always your fault, and not theirs.
This is reflected in their waivers, in which the Guru has zero accoutability for anything.

So that is the trap of these belief systems. Once you are inside the belief system, then criticizing the Guru becomes something you are engineered NOT to do, as you believe its really all just about you.
So no one in the group is even going to permit themselves to ask tough questions of the Guru. They suppress their own questions and thinking.

Also, this allows the Guru to tell its members to ignore criticisms from the outside, as they are all illusions anyway.
You could imagine someone like Byron Katie get up in front of her crowd and exclaim...I AM YOUR GURU and LEADER!!! and her audience would laugh, as they would "get it" that its all about your "perception" and its an "illusion".

But its not. Of course, that is a con-job, as evidenced by the waivers, and the deeper level of social persuasion and group dynamics, etc.
Contrary to what they say, there is such a thing as "facts", and some things are more objectively accurate than others.
But this is why they play with "what is reality" in the minds of their people.

This is similar to what Werner Erhard did/does to people in his programs.
This can easily destabilize a person's entire sense of "reality".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2009 06:53AM by The Anticult.

and one other point...these groups actually Target specific types of people to join their groups. They try to target a demographic that is an easy sell.
If one goes and has a look at some of the groups that form around Tolle and people like him, the basic members are basically just regular everyday folks, in the pursuit of happiness.
They generally don't have any training in these methods of influence and persuasion.

But if you look at the Leaders of even the local groups, its very different. Even with Byron Katie, many of the people who are selling her stuff for profit, are actual hypnotherapists, as they see exactly what she is doing, and how its being done.

But most regular folks don't have any training or knowledge about how these LGAT seminars operate.
And most of them are really kind-hearted people, who don't want to believe that some of these Guru's are so exploitative and dishonest.

So even just the basic awareness that this new wage Guru MIGHT be out to scam them for money...just that basic awareness is a good place to start.
From there, you start to carefully examine each specific technique, and pretty soon the house of cards comes falling down.

But these groups do carefully target the easiest demographic they can find.

To whom it may concern:

bluesky has been banned from this message board.

We are not empowering Katie.

She can do that on her own--after all shes the one publishing books and DVDS.

And getting so many loyalists that they proslytize her material in settings full of vulnerable people.

I still have not forgotten how, after I revealed some sensitive information about myself and broke down weeping at a 12 step meeting, a lady, Member X, came up and urged me to explore BK's material.

Someone else at that same meeting later told me that this same lady had persuaded her to go to a BK reading.

My info said, wrly, 'X' is married to a man who has money.'

Nice. If X has extra money, she can afford to take chances, she has a financial margin for error.

In today's economy and credit crunch, most of us do NOT have a margin for error.

If something is not medical treatment and not psychotherapy and the person offering these human potential services is not a licensed health care professional offering interventions for a diagnosed condition--and if your own MD or therapist has not signed off on your attending a human potential event for a diagnosed medical or psych condition--

Would the money you spend even be classified as medically tax deductible?

Ask your CPA about this.

Final note:

The price for gold is still above $900 an ounce. Hang on to what you have.

Quote

$979.00 USD per ounce

[www.monex.com]

Disclaimer: This and other posts by Corboy are not meant as investment advice and are for educational purposes only.

For further advice, consult a CPA.