Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 18, 2008 01:14AM
Continuing Education Module--Two Articles
There are times when making a single commitment is innocuous or even part of a genuinely beneficial experience.
Or that first commitment, seemingly simple, is a first step into what later becomes a degrading, expensive and enslaving, betrayal ridden mess.
How do we tell the difference?
It may be that seemingly minor first commitment is harmless when it is part of a normal, agenda free social interaction.
But when that first simple commitment is part of a covertly orchestrated YES SET, that is what entraps people.
And...Yes Set is a term known and used by hypnotists.
I was led to research 'Yes Set' technique by reading about it here:
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2008 01:19AM by corboy.
There are times when making a single commitment is innocuous or even part of a genuinely beneficial experience.
Or that first commitment, seemingly simple, is a first step into what later becomes a degrading, expensive and enslaving, betrayal ridden mess.
How do we tell the difference?
It may be that seemingly minor first commitment is harmless when it is part of a normal, agenda free social interaction.
But when that first simple commitment is part of a covertly orchestrated YES SET, that is what entraps people.
And...Yes Set is a term known and used by hypnotists.
Quote
Yes Set -
Refers to an technique outlined by M. Erickson where the conversation between the therapist and patient is intentionally structured in such a way that the patient must respond with the word "yes" (in other words obtaining a positive rather than a negative response). This sets a positive mood for interaction and begins the re-framing process.
It is also possible to use the momentum of the repetitive response to have someone agree to something without full consideration. Sales people often utilise this technique by asking a series of innocuous questions for which the answer can only be "yes" followed quickly a line such as "so you want to buy this then?" When the unwary will often answer "yes" without due thought.
From Magazine for Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy
Return to Alphabet Menu
[www.hypnos.co.uk]
I was led to research 'Yes Set' technique by reading about it here:
Quote
Why are we so concerned about trance states?
· Individuals don’t process information normally in trance states.
· Critical thinking—the arguing self—is turned off.
· Also turned off are reflection, independent judgment, and decision-making.
· In trance you are dealing with the subconscious mind, which has no way to tell the difference between something imagined or reality—it becomes a real experience which is interpreted for you by the group ideology.
· Once in a trance, people have visions or may “hear” sounds that are later interpreted for you in the context of the cult mindset—the “magic”—while, in reality, they are purposely manufactured physiological reactions to the trance state.
· While in trance you are more suggestible—not just during trance, but for a period of time up to two hours after.
· When a person dissociates, it becomes easier and easier to enter into a dissociative state—it can become a habit—and it can become uncontrollable.
You may have heard it said that not everyone can be hypnotized … that you need to be able to trust the hypnotist’s authority. While it’s true that there are degrees of hypnotizability, dissociative states may be induced indirectly. What if instead of telling you that “now we’re going to hypnotize you,” the leaders just say, “Let’s do a fun process—close your eyes and imagine …”? Are you told to trust your leaders? Do they have your best interest at heart? And what if they are using Ericksonian hypnosis, in which there is no formal trance induction?
What is Ericksonian Hypnosis? It’s an interchange between two people in which the hypnotist must
· Gain cooperation.
· Deal with resistant behavior.
· Receive acknowledgement that something is happening.
Ericksonian hypnosis involves techniques of expectation, pacing and leading, positive transference, indirect suggestion, the use of “yes sets,” deliberate confusion, the embedding of messages, and suggestive metaphor.
From 'Coping with Triggers by Carol Giambalvo; Joseph Kelly
"
[www.cultmediation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2008 01:19AM by corboy.
Byron Katie (the Work) and YES SET, Agreement Frame, Sales Tech
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 19, 2008 10:41AM
Its true that Milton Erickson used something like a Yes-Set method to gain rapport with his patients. The difference is that he was a licensed MD, doing hypnotherapy to help people, for a modest cost. So it was totally appropriate.
Then what happened is the NLP guys, and others, studied Erickson, and wrote it up, and took it apart.
Yes-Set
Agreement Frame (NLP)
They took a therapy tool, and converted to a SALES method. They depersonalized it into a manipulation device, to make large amounts of money and rip people off.
They turned it into a sales closing technique.
Byron Katie absolutely uses versions of this method when she constantly asks all of those open ended questions that draw out a YES from her fans.
She also says..."I INVITE you to..." as that is targeted at people who don't know how to say NO when someone INVITES them to do something for them.
Byron Katie exploits the sinister sales method of the Agreement Frame and Yes-Set, in her own style.
There are dozens and hundreds of sales techniques, just go to a large library and find the SALES section and read some of those books.
See the QUOTE below from a sales website.
______________________________
[www.changingminds.org]
QUOTE:
Yes-set Close
Disciplines > Sales > Closing techniques > Yes-set Close
Technique | How it works
Technique
Ask them several questions where the answer is easy to answer and is 'yes'. Then tag on the question at the end for which you really want the answer 'yes'.
The minimum set is usually three questions. You also do not want to over-do this, so either space out the questions or limit the number (although one research showed that eight yeses were needed overall before closure).
Encourage them to say yes by nodding your head gently as you talk with them.
If you need to hide the question, you can bury it amongst other questions.
Examples
Do you like coming to shop here?
Is it easy to find us?
Did this product catch your eye?
Are you ready to buy it now?
Will you want to take delivery next week?
How it works
The Yes-set Close works by setting up a repetitive pattern of 'yes' answers that gets the other person into a habitual response. When the pattern is established and they are automatically answering 'yes', then the question that you really want 'yes' to is slipped in.
Many people also do not particularly like to answer 'no' as they believe that it is impolite.
See also
Repetition principle, Assumption principle
Books on Sales Closing
______________________________________
Then what happened is the NLP guys, and others, studied Erickson, and wrote it up, and took it apart.
Yes-Set
Agreement Frame (NLP)
They took a therapy tool, and converted to a SALES method. They depersonalized it into a manipulation device, to make large amounts of money and rip people off.
They turned it into a sales closing technique.
Byron Katie absolutely uses versions of this method when she constantly asks all of those open ended questions that draw out a YES from her fans.
She also says..."I INVITE you to..." as that is targeted at people who don't know how to say NO when someone INVITES them to do something for them.
Byron Katie exploits the sinister sales method of the Agreement Frame and Yes-Set, in her own style.
There are dozens and hundreds of sales techniques, just go to a large library and find the SALES section and read some of those books.
See the QUOTE below from a sales website.
______________________________
[www.changingminds.org]
QUOTE:
Yes-set Close
Disciplines > Sales > Closing techniques > Yes-set Close
Technique | How it works
Technique
Ask them several questions where the answer is easy to answer and is 'yes'. Then tag on the question at the end for which you really want the answer 'yes'.
The minimum set is usually three questions. You also do not want to over-do this, so either space out the questions or limit the number (although one research showed that eight yeses were needed overall before closure).
Encourage them to say yes by nodding your head gently as you talk with them.
If you need to hide the question, you can bury it amongst other questions.
Examples
Do you like coming to shop here?
Is it easy to find us?
Did this product catch your eye?
Are you ready to buy it now?
Will you want to take delivery next week?
How it works
The Yes-set Close works by setting up a repetitive pattern of 'yes' answers that gets the other person into a habitual response. When the pattern is established and they are automatically answering 'yes', then the question that you really want 'yes' to is slipped in.
Many people also do not particularly like to answer 'no' as they believe that it is impolite.
See also
Repetition principle, Assumption principle
Books on Sales Closing
______________________________________
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 19, 2008 10:57PM
It can probably used by telemarketer types over the phone, as well.
I had a run in with someone who tried to sell me a new (and of course more expensive version) of something I currently use.
I said no, I was happy with what I had and had no desire to change it. I thought the telemarketer would leave me alone--I thought I was doing the kind thing by letting the guy know I was a waste of his time, so he could cross my name right off his list and make the next call.
Instead, this weirdo asked, 'What is holding you back?'
I suddenly felt like some phrase learned in a human manipulation course was being tossed at me. I'd tried to give the guy basic respect by making it clear I'd be a waste of his time, and here he was treating me as an object in some sort of strategy.
So I roared into the phone, 'Nothing is holding me back! I PREFER to keep what I have. When I DECIDE, ON MY OWN that I wanna change, I will DECIDE to call you!'
Then I banged down the phone.
Must tell you about a guy I met who is now 75. He grew a business the hard way, told me he never did stuff like that. He said, "I got used to having people say no.
'I figured I had to go through 20 'Nos' to get one 'Yes'. And I started out small, with local contacts and created a network of small, word of mouth referrals that led to bigger and bigger contracts.'
This is a guy who busted his tochas as a sales rep for his own company.
He did it old school, without using any of the covert creepy psy-op tricks that Anti Cult has been revealing to us.
I had a run in with someone who tried to sell me a new (and of course more expensive version) of something I currently use.
I said no, I was happy with what I had and had no desire to change it. I thought the telemarketer would leave me alone--I thought I was doing the kind thing by letting the guy know I was a waste of his time, so he could cross my name right off his list and make the next call.
Instead, this weirdo asked, 'What is holding you back?'
I suddenly felt like some phrase learned in a human manipulation course was being tossed at me. I'd tried to give the guy basic respect by making it clear I'd be a waste of his time, and here he was treating me as an object in some sort of strategy.
So I roared into the phone, 'Nothing is holding me back! I PREFER to keep what I have. When I DECIDE, ON MY OWN that I wanna change, I will DECIDE to call you!'
Then I banged down the phone.
Must tell you about a guy I met who is now 75. He grew a business the hard way, told me he never did stuff like that. He said, "I got used to having people say no.
'I figured I had to go through 20 'Nos' to get one 'Yes'. And I started out small, with local contacts and created a network of small, word of mouth referrals that led to bigger and bigger contracts.'
This is a guy who busted his tochas as a sales rep for his own company.
He did it old school, without using any of the covert creepy psy-op tricks that Anti Cult has been revealing to us.
Byron Katie, Michael Gottlieb Royal Way Ranch = PAY to WORK
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 20, 2008 08:28AM
Its really interesting how much in common these groups have. One could go through the entire list.
But just take one thing.
For example, Byron Katie has something she calls "STAFF". These are people who PAY Byron Katie to go and WORK at her seminars! [forum.culteducation.com]
Yes, that is correct. They go there and work at the seminar, not for free, but they PAY. (she disguises it somewhat, but its still paying for everything).
Notice also the George Orwell Doublespeak word 'STAFF'.
They are not staff, staff get PAID to work. Volunteers work for free, but not for a for-profit enterprise!
What do you call a person who PAYS to work for a for a for-profit enterprise? What is that?
Many groups do this, why?
The cost of LABOR is the major cost of any business, its extrememly expensive, hotels, per diem, salary, benefits, travel, etc.
For example, if Royal Way needed to hire 10 people to maintain the Royal Way Ranch, lets say they hired some unskilled labor for about 20K and year each, or whatever. That is $200,000 a year in labor costs, plus many other expenses.
So instead, Michael Gottlieb gets the same idea as Byron Katie...why PAY people when you can get them to PAY YOU to WORK for you! Brilliant. [forum.culteducation.com]
So if RW gets only 50 people over the year to pay $10,000 to RW, and work at the Ranch all day, also do the cleaning, etc. (you betcha they do that too). That would bring in 500K right there.
Also, Michael did not pay out the 200K in labor, but made 500K from the workers.
So very conservatively, he is ahead $700,000 a year.
So this is why all of these groups do this. They have the techniques to get followers so pumped up that these folks will PAY a fortune to go and cut the grass, farm, clean toilets, change sheets in the guest hotel, etc.
Its a Win/Win/Win.
For the group leader that is.
They win in saving labor costs.
They win by making money from people doing the work that has to be done.
They win by flexing their Power.
Don't kid yourself, that is what it is about.
Money and Power.
(also, notice that the Royal Way slogan is SILENCE...again, a nice double meaning...silence like a Monk, and it also shuts down ALL critical intelligence in people.
All these groups do that as well.
also, they use the word SERVICE, it makes everyone think they are Mother Theresa when they work for free for the group in a for-profit enterprise. Byron Katie and Landmark do that as well, they all do it.
These people are very crafty, they have it all figured out).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2008 08:31AM by The Anticult.
But just take one thing.
For example, Byron Katie has something she calls "STAFF". These are people who PAY Byron Katie to go and WORK at her seminars! [forum.culteducation.com]
Yes, that is correct. They go there and work at the seminar, not for free, but they PAY. (she disguises it somewhat, but its still paying for everything).
Notice also the George Orwell Doublespeak word 'STAFF'.
They are not staff, staff get PAID to work. Volunteers work for free, but not for a for-profit enterprise!
What do you call a person who PAYS to work for a for a for-profit enterprise? What is that?
Many groups do this, why?
The cost of LABOR is the major cost of any business, its extrememly expensive, hotels, per diem, salary, benefits, travel, etc.
For example, if Royal Way needed to hire 10 people to maintain the Royal Way Ranch, lets say they hired some unskilled labor for about 20K and year each, or whatever. That is $200,000 a year in labor costs, plus many other expenses.
So instead, Michael Gottlieb gets the same idea as Byron Katie...why PAY people when you can get them to PAY YOU to WORK for you! Brilliant. [forum.culteducation.com]
So if RW gets only 50 people over the year to pay $10,000 to RW, and work at the Ranch all day, also do the cleaning, etc. (you betcha they do that too). That would bring in 500K right there.
Also, Michael did not pay out the 200K in labor, but made 500K from the workers.
So very conservatively, he is ahead $700,000 a year.
So this is why all of these groups do this. They have the techniques to get followers so pumped up that these folks will PAY a fortune to go and cut the grass, farm, clean toilets, change sheets in the guest hotel, etc.
Its a Win/Win/Win.
For the group leader that is.
They win in saving labor costs.
They win by making money from people doing the work that has to be done.
They win by flexing their Power.
Don't kid yourself, that is what it is about.
Money and Power.
(also, notice that the Royal Way slogan is SILENCE...again, a nice double meaning...silence like a Monk, and it also shuts down ALL critical intelligence in people.
All these groups do that as well.
also, they use the word SERVICE, it makes everyone think they are Mother Theresa when they work for free for the group in a for-profit enterprise. Byron Katie and Landmark do that as well, they all do it.
These people are very crafty, they have it all figured out).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2008 08:31AM by The Anticult.
Beware: Byron Katie's "Mental Cleanse" 2009
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: November 23, 2008 05:44AM
People thinking of participating in Byron Katie's "Mental Cleanse" would do well to read the previous posts in this thread.
This is a link to the advertisement for the "cleanse" at Ms. Katie's website:
[[url=http://www.thework.com/newyearscleanse2009.htm]Byron Katie's New Year's Mental Cleanse 2009[/url]]
This is a link to the advertisement for the "cleanse" at Ms. Katie's website:
[[url=http://www.thework.com/newyearscleanse2009.htm]Byron Katie's New Year's Mental Cleanse 2009[/url]]
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 28, 2008 08:32AM
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
xythos
()
Date: December 05, 2008 02:24AM
Hi AntiCult,
What you describe about RW &/or BK sounds like the same technique they apply at OSHO Humaniversity. Different place/cult, same technique. Or MLM "bonanzas" (notably HL). BTW, I came across T(r)olle a bit over a year ago - I still have his book TPON, but I don't think I even finished reading it. It just bored me stiff after a while & I just couldn't feel him at all. The man feels completely uninspired to me, besides, I don't find him a very good writer (is it because English is not his first language? He's German, so it migth have something to do with it. Just wondering).
Watching him is quite painful, too, really. He looks like the chairs he sits in will swallow him up any minute - whoops! - he'll be gone before you know what happened!
Little man with absolutely no charisma, not particularly engaging to listen to (kinda great sleeping pill to snooze off for an afternoon nap). He's a right little troll, he is... Why people gather around him to such a degree (never mind Oprah) is a total mystery to me - or maybe I just have a blind spot?
I also saw some of Byron Katie's books & I just wasn't that interested... Empty face.
Maybe it's a kind of 'overexposure' (the Bodhi Tree in LA, CA used to be one of my favourite hang-outs, just browsing the various books), maybe, to me anyway, it has become seriously repetitive & they sound all alike somehow. Different cd/dvd, same drivel. It feels very much "same old, same old". And, my instinct has steered me to stay clear of 'La Oprah' ('The Donald' comes to mind - business with a twist) she banks on selling & hyping emotions beyond the bearable & after a while it just becomes embarrassing & a bit like an OD of marketing going pearshaped - yes, I am aware that she is "Da Queen" of marketing. Maybe after having been exposed to too many oily snake salesmen, I have developed an allergic reaction to the spiel in general (which, as I am sure people here know, also is applied generously in politics all over the globe).
Back to topic.
But I don't think the "pay to work" is really anything too recent or 'new'. Packaged differently but still the same "I'm pulling one on you! - I've got plenty of wool for everyone!". As far as I know it happens in maybe less obvious forms for going on a 'summer training camp' of various notions, such as ecological, environmental & the like. Folks like BK &/or "Troll[-e]" (IMHO, a much more fitting name for his minute stature & his bland, dull aura) just make it more dramatic in classic self-aggrandising style with lots of fanfare & hype.
What you describe about RW &/or BK sounds like the same technique they apply at OSHO Humaniversity. Different place/cult, same technique. Or MLM "bonanzas" (notably HL). BTW, I came across T(r)olle a bit over a year ago - I still have his book TPON, but I don't think I even finished reading it. It just bored me stiff after a while & I just couldn't feel him at all. The man feels completely uninspired to me, besides, I don't find him a very good writer (is it because English is not his first language? He's German, so it migth have something to do with it. Just wondering).
Watching him is quite painful, too, really. He looks like the chairs he sits in will swallow him up any minute - whoops! - he'll be gone before you know what happened!
Little man with absolutely no charisma, not particularly engaging to listen to (kinda great sleeping pill to snooze off for an afternoon nap). He's a right little troll, he is... Why people gather around him to such a degree (never mind Oprah) is a total mystery to me - or maybe I just have a blind spot?
I also saw some of Byron Katie's books & I just wasn't that interested... Empty face.
Maybe it's a kind of 'overexposure' (the Bodhi Tree in LA, CA used to be one of my favourite hang-outs, just browsing the various books), maybe, to me anyway, it has become seriously repetitive & they sound all alike somehow. Different cd/dvd, same drivel. It feels very much "same old, same old". And, my instinct has steered me to stay clear of 'La Oprah' ('The Donald' comes to mind - business with a twist) she banks on selling & hyping emotions beyond the bearable & after a while it just becomes embarrassing & a bit like an OD of marketing going pearshaped - yes, I am aware that she is "Da Queen" of marketing. Maybe after having been exposed to too many oily snake salesmen, I have developed an allergic reaction to the spiel in general (which, as I am sure people here know, also is applied generously in politics all over the globe).
Back to topic.
But I don't think the "pay to work" is really anything too recent or 'new'. Packaged differently but still the same "I'm pulling one on you! - I've got plenty of wool for everyone!". As far as I know it happens in maybe less obvious forms for going on a 'summer training camp' of various notions, such as ecological, environmental & the like. Folks like BK &/or "Troll[-e]" (IMHO, a much more fitting name for his minute stature & his bland, dull aura) just make it more dramatic in classic self-aggrandising style with lots of fanfare & hype.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
f0rTyLeGz
()
Date: December 05, 2008 07:50AM
I had a woo moment yesterday. I went to the Lloyd Center mall here in Portland, and I hadn't walked far when a kiosk vendors walked up to me all smiley and asked, "Are you Christmas shopping today?" I snarled and moved on. Two hundred feet further down the very quiet mall, there was a Hubby giving a FREE stress test. I blurted out, "Cult Watch!! Watch Out!" And I pointed dagger-fingers from my eyes at the OT! He didn't stay on point, and the poor sucker sitting there turned around... I smiled at him. Fifty feet further down mallway a pretty kiosk vendor approached me smiling and asked, "Are you Christmas shopping today?"
Anyway, I find it truly amazing that Scientology has survived the market place. They should have been laughed off the stage decades ago.
Anyway, I find it truly amazing that Scientology has survived the market place. They should have been laughed off the stage decades ago.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: December 05, 2008 11:13PM
All this is interesting. But this thread was set up to deal with Tolle and Byron Katie.
You guys are totally free to start a separate thread if you want.
You guys are totally free to start a separate thread if you want.
Byron Katie (the Work) ...Wayne Dyer gets on the gravy train
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: December 10, 2008 11:32AM
a CD set arrived from the library...its a Hay House cross-marketing product with Wayne Dyer with Byron Katie.
The thing really is quite nauseating from the beginning, Wayne Dyer's voice is slick and like a sales professional.
Wayne Dyer opens by defending James Frey, and saying he called James Frey and told him he would publish any of his books after Oprah criticized James Frey for his printed and spoken lies.
(A Million Little Lies: Exposing James Frey's Fiction Addiction)
[www.thesmokinggun.com]
The message is clear, Wayne Dyer thinks is perfectly ok to fabricate and lie to sell books! One has to wonder why Wayne Dyer begins by defending the fabrications of James Frey?
How much has Wayne Dyer fabricated? Are his books also filled with similar fabrications?
Dyer then outs his own daughter for having a serious drug addiction for 10 years. What a great dad.
Why doesn't Wayne Dyer instead talk about the rumors about his own alleged addictions?
________reference______________
Making Your Thoughts Work For You 4-CD Live Lecture [AUDIOBOOK] [CD] (Audio CD)
by Wayne W. Dyer (Author), Byron Katie (Author)
Audio CD
Publisher: Hay House (March 1, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1401911897
ISBN-13: 978-1401911898
The thing really is quite nauseating from the beginning, Wayne Dyer's voice is slick and like a sales professional.
Wayne Dyer opens by defending James Frey, and saying he called James Frey and told him he would publish any of his books after Oprah criticized James Frey for his printed and spoken lies.
(A Million Little Lies: Exposing James Frey's Fiction Addiction)
[www.thesmokinggun.com]
The message is clear, Wayne Dyer thinks is perfectly ok to fabricate and lie to sell books! One has to wonder why Wayne Dyer begins by defending the fabrications of James Frey?
How much has Wayne Dyer fabricated? Are his books also filled with similar fabrications?
Dyer then outs his own daughter for having a serious drug addiction for 10 years. What a great dad.
Why doesn't Wayne Dyer instead talk about the rumors about his own alleged addictions?
________reference______________
Making Your Thoughts Work For You 4-CD Live Lecture [AUDIOBOOK] [CD] (Audio CD)
by Wayne W. Dyer (Author), Byron Katie (Author)
Audio CD
Publisher: Hay House (March 1, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1401911897
ISBN-13: 978-1401911898
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